Athiests and NA... can it work?

Sweet P

Bluelighter
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I've been to quite a few NA meetings, but I've always struggled with their spiritual philosophy, and the whole "higher power" thing. They say anyone is welcome to attend NA, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, but I'm really not sure how an athiest like myself would fit in. I've thought of using a different "higher power"... instead of a god, I'd be thinking of an idealised version of myself - clean, sober, and healthy. But I dunno. Are there any athiests who attend NA, and how do you deal with all the spiritual stuff? And what is your "higher power"?
 
I don't personally have experience with this but my friend who is atheist went to NA and didn't have the best time. They pretty much told him he shouldn't bother to come and that he would never get clean because he didn't believe in a higher power. It really pissed me off when he told me about it. I firgure that it was just a bad group and the whole of NA probably wouldn't have treated him like that but it kinda turned me off from ever going to NA if I needed some help.
 
I had a long response to this but Firefox crashed on me so, since I'm lazy I'll just start typing and see what happens.

First, I am more agnostic than atheist. My higher power is more focused on nature and no particular god. I actually have a problem with NA literature where they capitalize the 'G' in the word 'god' and refer to this 'god' as a male. I understand that it is simply terminology but I'm the kind of dude that nit picks.

I never use the word 'god' when speaking to people because it is too specific of a term and conjures different images in different people's heads. I use the term 'higher power' (or 'hp' for short).

Some folks get weirded out when NA starts talking about 'spiritual principles' but, in reality, 'spiritual principles' (honesty, open-mindedness, willingness, acceptance, tolerance, fortitude, courage, etc.) is just a synonym for 'qualities of good character'. Same exact thing.

Also, the program is pretty cool. In order to be more things to more people, other terminology and options are incorporated into the literature. NA realizes that not everyone prays. Any addict who doesn't pray can still reap the rewards that those who do pray receive through meditation. Prayer is simply concentrated thought (IMO). Meditation is as well.

Anyway, I like your concept of a higher power. Some agnostics simply use the word 'GOD' as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction.

I have a Blog entry a couple weeks ago in an effort to define my own perception of a higher power. Not really to define it for others but to help myself better understand what I believe.

Below is a copy/paste from that Blog in NSFW tags for those who don't care to be bothered.

NSFW:
higher power
Posted 28-12-2009 at 03:42 by OverDone
Yeah, its time to attempt to put my understanding of diety into words.

I don't 'follow' any of the standard knuckleheads such as jesus, allah, yahweh, ja, etc. My belief system is more symbolic than anything. I DO believe in a 'something' (perhaps even a 'great something'). And I feel that this 'something' cares for me, wants me to learn, reach my potential and live a life of substance. I typically perceive this power as female but at times I refer to it in a masculine sense.

I do pray everyday to my particular whatnot on a daily basis. I always have. When I was using hardcore, I prayed on an intermittent basis.

I sense that this force of nature (or super nature) is generally good but doesn't fuck around when an asshole like me needs a quick eye-opener or harsh lesson. Well, generally good isn't a fair assessment. I think he/she/it is perfectly good.

But dude, what about all the bad in your life? How can something 'perfectly good' allow any bad? The answer is simple, my higher power isn't a pussy and is kind enough to give me just enough hardship so that I may grow and learn. These growth spurts and lessons are always perfectly timed. And I can't label something that allows me to grow and learn as 'bad' or 'flawed'.

But what about all the evil in the world? To me, 'evil' is a christian term and at this point in time I can't be bothered to look up the dictionary definition. I CAN say this however, hearing of 'evils', witnessing 'evils' and even participating in 'evils' have taught me such good things such as compassion, empathy, loyalty and honesty (just off the top of my head). So, is it purely evil if good has come out of it? Not purely. So perhaps it isn't evil at all.

Oh, I can't remember specifics but this higher power of mine has a twisted sense of humor as well. I get a kick out of it!

Most likely, to be continued...


EDIT: Oh! If you go to www.na.org and scroll to the bottom you will see a 'search this site' option. Enter the word 'atheist' or 'agnostic' and you'll see some pretty cool stuff. (one issue was kind of avoided, though. In 1991 a motion was placed to reform ALL literature to have the word 'God' replaced with 'higher power' and to remove gender specific references to that higher power

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #19

Gender-specific language and use
of the word "God" in NA literature

The following is a February 1992 response to a motion committed to the World Service Board of Trustees by the World Service Conference. It reflects the views of the board at the time of writing.

During WSC '91, the following motion was committed to the World Service Board of Trustees for its consideration: That all subsequent literature that is to be revised and be produced to have non-gender-specific language and that all references to God be changed to "Higher Power" or "Power Greater than ourselves."

This motion was addressed at our June 1991, August 1991, and February 1992 meetings, with our discussions focusing on the following main issues.

First, and simplest, is the change to non-gender-specific language. Our perception is that the various committees involved in literature projects are already very sensitive to this issue. Changes of the type suggested by this motion are already being considered in the literature development and review process.

More complicated is the question of changing all references to "God." Our fellowship embraces the devoutly religious as well as the atheist. We experience a profound spiritual awakening as a result of actively applying the Twelve Steps in our lives. Most of us continue to experience change and growth in our spiritual orientation as we continue to live the program. We are faced with the dilemma of meaningfully addressing diverse and evolving personal spiritual orientations. This motion proposes replacing all references to God with the terms "Higher Power" or "Power Greater than ourselves." These substitutions would not resolve our dilemma since they still would not meet the needs of many members, particularly those who believe that the "Power greater than ourselves" in the Second Step is not equivalent to the "God, as we understood Him" in our Third Step. There have been numerous other alternatives suggested to the term "God." We feel that, prior to making a change which could profoundly impact our philosophy and interpretation of principles, significant discussion and agreement need to take place within the fellowship at large.

Both of these questions carry with them an additional consideration, since the word "God" and gender-specific language are used in our steps and traditions. We feel that any changes to our steps and traditions should not be considered in the same way we consider narrative portions of our literature. Once again, we feel that such changes and the possible ramifications of such changes need to have significant discussion and agreement prior to any implementation.

As a result of our discussions, it is the opinion of the World Service Board of Trustees that no formal action should be taken on this motion at this time. We do, however, believe that these topics should be widely discussed throughout the fellowship. We thank the conference for allowing us to serve.
source: http://web.na.org/?ID=BULLETIN19
 
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Awesome post, OD. It's given me a lot to think about. When I referred to myself as an atheist, I didn't mean I'm a staunch "I don't believe god exists" atheist... I suppose I'm more agnostic really. But anyway, I love that acronym of "GOD" - Good Orderly Direction.
 
Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the Life.

From my understanding in NA and AA you can make the actual program your God.
[Sean, you are welcome to express your own opinions and religious beliefs, but please do so without undermining other people's views, thank you - n3o]
 
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Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the Life.

From my understanding in NA and AA you can make the actual program your God.

with all due respect, that is rather insulting.

I'm glad you have found happiness and purpose but there is no one way, no one true god. (i'll stop there because this doesn't need to be a religious debate)

Many of my fellow NA members are hardcore into jesus and they believe that the program is a 'god given' gift.

I just hope your close-minded (and apparent elitist) attitude doesn't interfere with your progress and that you maintain a clean and sober life
 
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Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the Life.

From my understanding in NA and AA you can make the actual program your God. .

That's your opinion, and I respect that as such. But please don't come into threads posting affirmatives like "Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the Life". That may be your belief, but to those who do not share that belief, it comes across as preachy and annoying. How 'bout toning it down a notch? You ain't converting anybody, so stop wasting your energy.
 
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Sweet P, I've always felt that this is something that I would really struggle with in NA/AA meetings as well, and I'll be honest it's kinda turning me off even approaching AA meetings. If I happened to unfortunately join a particular AA group that was of this stance:
Help?!?! said:
They pretty much told him he shouldn't bother to come and that he would never get clean because he didn't believe in a higher power.
I would RUN and never look back!!!!

I think the concept of a "higher power" can be approached without it being of a religious stand-point though. It just seems to be so easy for people to jump on the religion bandwagon and get carried away with it, and unfortunately in my experience this can often lead to those people pigeon-holeing non-religious people and basically writing them off...
Most unfortunate.

I'm definitely not saying that this occurs in all cases, but I've come across it quite a number of times...
 
^ Yeah I've heard some pretty odd "higher powers", like chocolate thickshakes.

I don't think they were being serious... but who knows. :p
 
Honestly, sweet p, my higher power is drug tests. No joke, I have always had a hard time about people attributing all the great stuff happening in their life, not because of sobriety, but because of god.

I was complaining about the spiritual aspect to my psychiatrist, and he said ANYTHING could be your higher power, and I told him, "The one thing that really keeps me sober is drug tests."

Boom. Whatever will help you stay clean, I'd say go for it. If you are craving a hit, and you can listen to music to make it go away, make music your Higher Power.
 
i lived and breathed NA for over a year, i lived w/ my sponsor, we would hold 'closed' meetings their, or go to them 3 nights at our home group; spiritual seekers, we, and many others fondly referred to the meeting as spiritual tweekers heheh. during that time, we never4 spoke of religion, or god, unless we where only in a philosophical sense, alone chatting, not in a meeting..

my higher power when asked to draw it was a snow flake. i couldnt think of anything else to draw, i had that drawing a long time, through some serious shit w/d, realization, clarity, psychosis, the start of a life, and then a rapid relapse that lasted 8 years, i lost that drawing along that road. it ment to me, unique, individual, pristine perfection.

now, i do not go to aa/na, the environment is a major trigger for me now haha, my probation even dropped it for me because they could see i seriously was sick of drink, and am probably too sick to drink any way haha. even now though, as a total atheist i feel christianity was basterdized pagan irish, yet im unsure of their interpretation of things as well, and that all religion is evil, because any god i can imagine created a world and harmony in all forms of life, and nature, as terrible as they are, or glorious, they all are a part of nature; derived and delivered, never truly duplicated, the most awesome force, nature.

imagining the vastness, depth, and beauty of our earth is amazing to me, i imagine animals and others who suffer at the hand of nature, and it makes since, any pain and suffering i have... when i attempt to encompass the great infinite around us, nothing i can say or do matters, nothing anyone can say or do maters. mother nature who gently carries feathers and leafs, pours life giving water, and filtered sun carries radiation, creates suspend towering galaxies, unfathomable heat and cold. the same mother nature that creates lead rain, and lakes of methane on some planets.

before i keep going on and my browser drops, thats my higher power, and a smidge of why.

you should seriously give it a shot, it does work if you work it, as corny as that sounds, its true, and na or aa is not religious, no, ive surely been to around a thousand meetings... and none of them have been preachy, or encroaching with religion what so ever, not once IME.

try it, its only an hour, the first one may not be the greatest, but every 'group ' pr 'meeting' is different in ways, some mayy mostly be traditional step meetings, some may be mostly straight faced and reserved, or their is one in the city i live by thats a 1.5 hour wild tell all group, that reminds me of hre, but you cant really respond in real time with a "hey, thats what its like for me!" but you can and should try and tell them after the meeting maybe, or speak and mention how you relate. im sure you would find a group that would suit you fine sweet P, and possibly save your life, I can promise you that if you look and try.

i still have my first AA book from 15 years ago, the old blue one, lots of marked passages, and dog ears on that old thang.

;)
 
ive never gone to AA/NA. i might someday, more for the purpose of meeting other addicts than working the 12 steps though. frankly the perception i get from these organizations is that they have a very set way of thinking which they adhere to regardless of evidence to the contrary. that doesn't mean everyone who goes is like that though.

as for a higher power, frankly i think people who have trouble with this concept are suffering from arrogance and an inflated sense of self importance. if you don't believe in god, just make your higher power nature. how foolish for one to think they are more powerful than nature (heck, if you were why would you be going to an NA meeting?).
 
^Wow! Awesome writing PIP!!

Sweet P- is there a 'rational recovery' group around you? They have a website with locations around the globe. Maybe you could get to one of those meetings.

Also- how about just one-on-one psychotherapy/CBT? Of course, some people respond better to the group environment and maybe you already have incorporated this into your life.

Nevertheless, I'm an atheist and don't believe in any type of higher power so NA/AA would be tough on me too.
 
I am an athiest/forced christian, but id rather think of christianity as an embodiment of morals, the religious figures and such i ignore, i would love to see a religion develop based on the sole purpose of morality and kindness, not praying to jesus and making sacrifices and purity rings. So if i went into a NA meeting, it would be bad, the world has enough "holy rollers"
 
As an atheist, I've always felt somewhat "indignant" about being thrown into that kind of thing.


Of course, I was pissed off about it long before I knew about their "higher power" type of thinking, so that probably just added to it.
 
Many of my fellow NA members are hardcore into jesus and they believe that the program is a 'god given' gift.

I just hope your close-minded (and apparent elitist) attitude doesn't interfere with your progress and that you maintain a clean and sober life

With all due respect, I hope your close-minded attitude doesnt interfere with your progress on being sober too buddy! Of coure I say that in a nice Christian way! =]


And Im sure that your friends who are Christian do beleive that, considering the original 12 Steps were all taken out of the bible. Over the years theyve revised the orginization and widdled down the steps and taken God out of them to make it more "People friendly".


Just like everything else this nation was built upon Christiany. Now you cant say God in the plege in school. Kids cant read bibles in schools. Weve kicked God out of everything in this nation, Weve asked God to leave and he has!! Thats why we are in the MESS we are in now!

Thats enough with all this Ive said what I gotta say!!

Sorry Sweet P!! Love ya girl!

And Sweet P I used to have a problem with the Higher power part of NA and AA also. The best advice Ive heard is to make NA your higher power. There is power in the orginazation if you work it right. Any rehab or program you get out of it what you put into it.

Keep coming Dont use!!

PS I didnt mean to come off as bashing NA.. It has worked for alot of people!
 
Sweet P,
I know this is a little off subject but do you have a job?

Ive found that idle time is probibly the biggest trigger for addicts. You gotta keep your mind occupied. Stay busy with positive things. What skills do you have? Start your own business!!
Maybe you do have a job I dont know. But thats the number one thing I'd do.

This is just my advice to you
 
^Wow! Awesome writing PIP!!

Sweet P- is there a 'rational recovery' group around you? They have a website with locations around the globe. Maybe you could get to one of those meetings.

Also- how about just one-on-one psychotherapy/CBT? Of course, some people respond better to the group environment and maybe you already have incorporated this into your life.

No, unfortunately I don't think there are any Rational Recovery groups in my country. But I am already doing some one-one-one CBT and DBT therapy with a drug counsellor which has really helped me.

Sweet P,
I know this is a little off subject but do you have a job?

Ive found that idle time is probibly the biggest trigger for addicts. You gotta keep your mind occupied. Stay busy with positive things. What skills do you have? Start your own business!!
Maybe you do have a job I dont know. But thats the number one thing I'd do.

This is just my advice to you

Not currently. And I don't have much of a work history, unless you count prostitute, dealer, hustler, meth cook, and so on. The PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) from my addiction has pretty much brought my life to a halt... I struggle to enjoy life or to motivate myself to do anything.
 
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