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Athiests and NA... can it work?

Binge Artist said:
I think the problem you're describing is kinda ironically the problem that religion and NA generate.


See what I'm saying? This thread, just like AA and NA, has religious untertones. And what happens? A big conflict over religion arises. Things get blown out of proportion.


See, religion is such a volitile topic that, even when it's totally implicit, like in the case of NA, it naturally sparks conflict and controversy.
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Yes, i agree fully, plus, everyone knows that AA/NA meetings dont "accept" atheism even if they advertise for it. Its just a general rule that christianity doesn't tolerate other people of other religions IMO.
 
FloridaHighs said:
Yes, i agree fully, plus, everyone knows that AA/NA meetings dont "accept" atheism even if they advertise for it. Its just a general rule that christianity doesn't tolerate other people of other religions IMO.
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That's inaccurate. There are many Muslims and quite a few atheist/agnostics involved in NA.

Religion has nothing to do with NA
 
Really? Because the ones around my area are completely christian... and i know AA is religious, a quote from the co-founder of AA "Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset."
"An alcoholic is a fellow who is 'trying to get his religion out of a bottle,' when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity with God."
"There is a definite religious element here." said it himself, Bill W
 
I really don't know much about AA. It holds no attraction for me (primarily for the wording in their preamble).

I'm in NA (6.5 months clean) and I guess I would be considered agnostic. (http://bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=8136853&postcount=3)

I can't argue that on occasion you WILL meet individuals in NA that emphasize their particular religion or try to push it down your throat. These types are usually newer members who just don't know any better.

The idea behind NA is to help a person, any person stop using drugs. We don't care about anything else (age, race, sexual identity, creed, religion, or lack of religion).

Hey, I don't EVER want to sound preachy concerning NA. I just think its important that accurate information is available to folks. I understand that there are other methods available to people to help them get and stay clean. It doesn't have to be NA (it works for me regardless of my lack of religion) and since its the only thing that I'm familiar with I need to share my personal experience accurately.

Whatever positive route a person finds that helps them find a better standard of living is fucking AWESOME (regardless if its NA/AA, religion, therapy, service to others, etc).

Anyway, below in NSFW tags are some statements from www.na.org that I hope will clear up a few things:

What Is The Narcotics Anonymous Program?
NSFW:
What Is the Narcotics Anonymous Program?

NA is a nonprofit fellowship or society of men and women for whom drugs had become a major problem. We are recovering addicts who meet regularly to help each other stay clean. This is a program of complete abstinence from all drugs. There is only one requirement for membership, the desire to stop using. We suggest that you keep an open mind and give yourself a break. Our program is a set of principles written so simply that we can follow them in our daily lives. The most important thing about them is that they work.

There are no strings attached to NA. We are not affiliated with any other organizations. We have no initiation fees or dues, no pledges to sign, no promises to make to anyone. We are not connected with any political, religious, or law enforcement groups, and are under no surveillance at any time. Anyone may join us regardless of age, race, sexual identity, creed, religion, or lack of religion.

We are not interested in what or how much you used or who your connections were, what you have done in the past, how much or how little you have, but only in what you want to do about your problem and how we can help. The newcomer is the most important person at any meeting, because we can only keep what we have by giving it away. We have learned from our group experience that those who keep coming to our meetings regularly stay clean.


Why Are We Here?
NSFW:
Why Are We Here?

Before coming to the Fellowship of NA, we could not manage our own lives. We could not live and enjoy life as other people do. We had to have something different and we thought we had found it in drugs. We placed their use ahead of the welfare of our families, our wives, husbands, and our children. We had to have drugs at all costs. We did many people great harm but most of all we harmed ourselves. Through our inability to accept personal responsibilities we were actually creating our own problems. We seemed to be incapable of facing life on its own terms.

Most of us realized that in our addiction we were slowly committing suicide, but addiction is such a cunning enemy of life that we had lost the power to do anything about it. Many of us ended up in jail or sought help through medicine, religion, and psychiatry. None of these methods was sufficient for us. Our disease always resurfaced or continued to progress until in desperation we sought help from each other in Narcotics Anonymous.

After coming to NA, we realized we were sick people. We suffered from a disease from which there is no known cure. It can, however, be arrested at some point and recovery is then possible.
 
Sweet P said:
^ I don't think the anti-methadone/bupe position is a general rule throughout NA.

I know several people in my group are on methadone, and nobody seems to mind.
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http://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29

NA's official position is somewhat condescending to those on replacement therapies, implying that its just drug substitution. People in my group were also cool about it, though.
 
I think one of the major things is that NA or no NA people quit when they are ready to quit. NA wouldn't have worked if they were not good and ready and when someone is good and ready it doesn't have to be any particular means. If NA makes you comfortable go for it & utilize it. If it holds you back leave it alone.

My thoughts on some of the aligned issues peripheral to the main thread purpose under wraps.

NSFW:
I think the party line that NA is spiritual but not a religion is a distinction without a difference. They have scripture. They have organized ritual. They have prayer. They have tenets. Meetings are filled with talk about spirituality & people there give a lot of spiritual advice and admonishments. An organization organized with a focus on spiritual things is a religion. Saying over and over that AA or NA is not a religion doesn't change the fact that it has more traits of a religion than many religions. If its important to folks to say this carbonated, sweetened beverage is not soda its just bubbly cola liquid I'll just have to say I guess you got me there. Sorry I misunderstood.
 
I have asked this same question. Unfourtanatly, I have not found a higher power nor plan on finding one. I stopped going to NA mainly because if this. good post.
 
^ Yup, I've since stopped going to NA too. There's no higher power out there for me.
 
When I was full blown psychotic and sectioned again, I was convinced I was the archangel Gabriel and saying I was overzealous in my temporary religious and spirituality would be an understatement. Afterwards, I was forced to go to NA/AA during rehab while still inpatient (and I don't think that's even legal, but that's Georgia for you) and it did work pretty well short-term. But even as Gabriel, I sure as hell couldn't feel the whole bonding everyone seemed to have, if it actually does exist and is not a facade. Even with that full-blown spiritual conviction, I found it way too much of a fucking commitment to go to meetings all the time once I got out.

Then I was no longer Gabriel and realized the real me did not believe in any higher power and realized reminiscing every day about past drug/alcohol use sort of defeats the purpose unless you have tremendous spiritual commitment and vice versa. That combo of (far too overtly) dedicated and stable spirituality and commitment is rare, but when they come by, it does work better than just trying to quit on your own.

Addendum: Every single member seems to smoke too though, the irony.
 
^^ I went to NA fo a while and people had all sorts of 'higher powers' working from what worked for THEM and kept them sober. From memory there were a few far-out ones, but everyone was just doing what they could to get through. <3
 
Yeah, me and a great guy I befriended the 500th time or so I was sectioned both agreed our higher powers were nature and music, which we really meant, for "emotions anonymous." They are obviously hinting at religion though, in my opinion, because he himself was deeply spiritual and it was ineffective to the point where his diagnosis of bipolar was shifted to schizoaffective during that time. I don't think anything other than religious belief could really help as effectively, if at all, either way despite my views on religion. Then again something like bipolar or schizophrenia could be considered pretty much completely ineffective to counseling.
 
I've been in NA for a while now and I struggled with that at first too, but it will become clear later. Although some will try to get you to believe what they do, that is just what people do. NA as a whole truthfully does not discriminate. The people who preach are really not following the program. I have found that most people I have come across in NA are agnostic or atheist, or they just use a specific faith as a cover. This is not true for everyone of course, but in all honesty most people who claim a specific faith really do not practice what they preach. People in NA/AA generally are open minded. I find it is best to simply not discuss religion in the program as with daily life because it causes unnecessary drama. It will become clearer. Your religious beliefs truly do not matter in the program.
 
^ yes.

the thing is, AA/NA does nothing to exclude any addict. many, many addicts will try to find anything wrong with the program, to give them an excuse to reject the system and remain an addict.

it's actually a freaking miracle that something like AA/NA exists. it's free, you can meet other addicts there working towards sobriety. people that attend, tend to be emotionally raw and kind... and they will listen to you go on and on about your drug problem. you can find a meeting anywhere in any city across the globe... something like that doesn't have to exist, but it does.

when your higher power can be virtually anything... and the steps are a spiritual journey that's very personal and individual... well OP, what's wrong with all this?

many people dis AA/NA, but in reality, it's because they aren't ready to quit and they are trying to rationalize continued use. us junkies are smart that way.
 
TriggerHappy said:
many people dis AA/NA, but in reality, it's because they aren't ready to quit and they are trying to rationalize continued use. us junkies are smart that way
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I know there are many reasons that people dis AA/NA beyond rationalizing continued use. Some examples:
A)loose personal boundaries
B)Rampant 13th stepping of very vulnerable people
C)Cult like rejection of outside, alternative approaches
D)Gossip and far more interpersonal drama than one ever found in bars
E)Recitation of aphorisms as a substitute for actual thought or dialogue
F) Not following their own traditions-both AA & NA have TV & print advertising in my area
G) Cult like predictions of doom for those who would "leave these rooms"
 
I agree with both Cloudburst and psyly.

We do look for reasons to continue using and often the people in the program hand us those excuses on a silver platter.

psyly, you are correct in all your points, man. The degree of how much we fuck up like that varies I'm sure but yeah, we fuck up and twist shit. I think it has to do with the strong personalities us addicts have. The people in the program often disappoint me (I disappoint myself as well) so I go by the literature (which is pretty solid) and try to stick with a very few experienced 'no bullshit' people.

But, concerning the OP's original question... I was gettin' pretty down on the 12 Step thing and a dude shared about one of the things that NA states in its Traditions. He said 'We encourage member's to think for themselves'

Below in NSFW is the text it was taken from (the parts in bold are attractive to me personally):

NSFW:
“We do not suggest that everyone adopt our views, nor do we oppose those with different views,” we can explain. “We simply want you to know what the Narcotics Anonymous program is like.” So long as we focus, as groups and as a fellowship, on our recovery experience rather than our opinions of why or how NA works, we will stay as far as possible from public controversy.

Tradition Ten restricts NA, as a fellowship, from stating opinions on outside issues. However, it places no such restriction on the in- dividual member. In Narcotics Anonymous, we believe strongly in personal freedom. Addicts who have a desire to stop using can be- come members of NA simply by saying so. We have no dues or fees, no pledges to sign, no promises to make to anyone, ever.

Though a spiritual program, we encourage our members to develop their own understanding of a Higher Power. Even our leaders are only trusted servants, with no power to tell individual members what to do, think, or say. NA members are encouraged to think for themselves, to de- velop their own opinions, and to express those opinions as they see fit.
 
WSB15 said:
http://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29

NA's official position is somewhat condescending to those on replacement therapies, implying that its just drug substitution. People in my group were also cool about it, though.
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I have been through heroin, methadone and suboxone, in that order, and I have to say that i can't really take someone as having gotten clean if they are on methadone. This is from my experience with myself and with the people i met who went to my same clinic. Subs/bupe is a different story, but Methadone really is just a 'replacement' therapy, you are just replacing illegal opiates for a legal one. I don't discredit anyone on either as they were both important stepping stones on my path to cleanliness, but i can see how someone still on methadone would be out of place in a NA meeting.


Now that said, i have never been to an NA meeting, and i don't have any plans to go any time soon, but i have always been turned off by the whole 'higher power' idea. I remember the nurse at my methadone clinic explaining it to me with a big smile on her face. I don't agree that it's arrogant to say that you don't need something like that. I have quit long term addictions to cigarettes, heroin/methadone, clonezepam, and now finally alcohol. I have always done it by personal virtue and inner power. To me that is all the opposite of 'higher power'. Higher power just seems like another addiction, putting the power in something outside of yourself, the thing that addicts are always best at.

God bless god or anything else that has helped anyone with anything, ever. All i can talk about is myself, and that is probably all i will talk about. It would seem arrogant to do anything else.
 
I always wondered why did i need anyone else to tell me what i already know about myself? When i quit drinking i knew the reasons why i was quitting and i also knew the reasons why i drank. I had very good reasons for wanting to quit and besides a few slip ups over the years (usually after something bad happens) ive been doing alright. Better then i ever thought id do thats for sure. I had a major slip up last week when i stayed drunk for 3 days due to being depressed as fuck but i don't even think about it really. In fact not thinking about it has been alot of my strategey if i even have one for not drinking. I was never one to count the days id been sober.

As for the whole religious cult thing i know some AA/NA places are like that and some arent. I would never say im powerless over such and such a substance and ask for gods help to overcome it. I think the fact that they make people feel like they are powerless over their addiction is self defeating and not constructive to say the least. In the end the addict makes the choice to quit and stay off so the addict actually has full control over his addiction when you think of it that way. Though it does often takes years and years of being on the road to ruin before he/she exercises there control to stop taking whatever they are hooked on.

Im not even going to touch on the religious aspect of it except i have no problem with someones religion as long as they don't push it on me. If it helps you thats fine. Also AA/NA does work for some people but i know it wouldnt work for me and would be if anything counterproductive.

Just my 2 cents on it :\
 
SececaRD said:
Just like everything else this nation was built upon Christiany. Now you cant say God in the plege in school. Kids cant read bibles in schools. Weve kicked God out of everything in this nation, Weve asked God to leave and he has!! Thats why we are in the MESS we are in now!
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So I take it the golden age of Christian morality that you look back on in the USA includes: Patriarchy; Racism; Segregation; Homophobia; and Slavery? Yes, what a fucken mess society is now in.
 
I think the concepts from Buddhism/Taoism can best be adapted when taking a 'religious' viewpoint on these matters...

We can each be our own buddha - like you said - our own deities of worship, as long as we are willing to work towards that & let go of our self-prejudices...so that we can evolve, and become better beings in this world.

easier said than done, I must say.
 
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