Atheism and theism are not mutually exclusive.

[nepalnt21]

Its officially called atheist theism, look it up my friend...

are you sure you don't mean 'agnostic' theism?

i used to consider myself that a long time ago, and would read like the 'non-canocal' aka the 'we threw them out cause they didn't serve our purposes' gospels (thomas, what waaaat), as well as other religious texts (like the 'tao te ching' and 'valis'), but i realized it was not how i wanted to live my life. i had no reason to cling onto this being that i could find no good evidence for the existence of, and even if there is a god, it's almost certainly not the one of the bible. if so, maybe the gnostic xtians are right...

now i guess you could call me an 'agostic' atheist, but it's kinda superfluous to add 'agnostic'.

imo, 'atheism' has taken its final form: the 'i do not accept the claims of there being a god or gods' atheism, not the 'i claim that there are no gods' atheism from movies and shit.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

Hi, sorry for my late reply and thanks for another interesting post, really. I m not anh atheist materialist but even if I was - when I was I considered "hardcore materialism" problematic for a number of reasons, some of which u mention here , another big one is the "mind brain identity" which cannot possibly account for a number of phenomena such as...consciousness, hence I think I would buy something along the lines of Chalmers´s dualism https://mindmatters.ai/2023/01/philosopher-i-accept-dualism-but-dont-believe-in-the-soul/

I m a (shitty) Christian Catholic but you don t have to be one to accept my metaphysical and ethical views, which are a "Christian development" of the works of of a "pagan" philosophers such as Aristotle https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-ethics/

Anyway, setting aside my religious beliefs, God-nature-whatever gave us reason by which we can arrive at some objective ethical truths , which are shared basically by any existing or past culture ( that s why despite our differences no culture allows stuff like "killing randomly the people of your own group- lying systematically to the people of your group) and these truths IMHO would be true whether God existed or not.

I appreciate the ancient philosophers perspectives as well. The mind of god can be understood in fragments by different groups of people in different time periods in different civilizations etc.

But I would argue that many people throughout time have different values. We can say that killing our own people randomly is wrong but there are societies in history that have sacrificed their people to the gods en masse as well as people being willing to die for their particular gods and other religious reasons and being martyrs and willingly giving themselves over for sacrifice.

And we also go to war with other countries and pretend like that is a noble cause. A brave and courageous act for sure but not taking into consideration that there are different perspectives between different countries and different groups of people who think that their family members are the ones who deserve to come back home more so than the person who their family member killed who was part of another family who wanted them to come back home too. And yet there are many people who feel that their particular land is more worthy and that they have the right perspective so it is ethically justifiable to perpetuate war according to their reality.

So if god gives us logic and reason to see what objective ethical truths are, then why are there people who believe in god that still do things that we consider bad or tyrannical or controlling or violent? I believe there is objective truths but I don’t think that ethics and morals and standards and such cannot be fundamentally grounded in reality. I argue that it’s just a byproduct of our faulty nature as human beings. We cannot comprehend a world where all things including the bad are ultimately a part of God.

 

[skipjames]

The mind of god can be understood in fragments by different groups of people in different time periods in different civilizations etc.

On this score me, you and the Catholic Church totally ( well, almost totally) agree , I m a big fan of St Justin ´s Doctrine of Semina Verbi (Seeds of truth) https://watch.formed.org/formed-now...logetic works.-,St.,truth found in all things.

So if god gives us logic and reason to see what objective ethical truths are, then why are there people who believe in god that still do things that we consider bad or tyrannical or controlling or violent?

From a purely philosophical point of view, methinks that s because we are rational animals, the rational is as important as the animal , and many times we fail to find a balance- just middle-between the animality (not "intrinsically evil", feelings empathy etc are part of our humanity) and rationality ( not inherently good, any murderous psychopaths were and are extremely rational, still...)When either pure animality or pure rationality win the day we fuck up. Also I agree with Aristotle that morality , virtues and vices are habits, learned by repetition -observation not only by thinking bout it. If we live in a fucked up way surrounded by fucked up people in a fucked up society we are more likely to make fucked up judgement and act in a fucked up way. does it make any sense?
Plus as I said I m Catholic (btw if u don t mind me asking, as you are talking about God, are u religious-if so what s your religion? just curious)so to me our faulty nature cannot be explained by philosophy alone but also by theology, Original Sin St Paul St Augustine etc. The natural tendency to make wrong judgements, wrong actions and also to do what s bad even if we know what s good. Take me, Mr Catholic Philosophy Professor with a PhD and shit, all coked out and chain smoking as I am writing, even if rationally I am aware pretty aware that this shit is gonna kill me. working on it.....

PS really thanks a lot for this exchange, if there is one thing I don t regret about being a junkie is that I had and have the chance to interact with lot of cool people I would probably never ever met (offline or online) otherwise. Cheers!

 

[SpiralusSancti]

It’s broadly accepted in view of many religions (and philosophies) that material part of the world as seen by chatolics or another example, illusionary world, maya, as seen by hindu is bound to be filled with negative/evil/suffering too. Some analogy to that is found in just about any big religion.

 

[skipjames]

It’s broadly accepted in view of many religions (and philosophies) that material part of the world as seen by chatolics or another example, illusionary world, maya, as seen by hindu is bound to be filled with negative/evil/suffering too. Some analogy to that is found in just about any big religion.

actually mainstream Catholicism has a pretty positive view about the material world (because the world was created by God and he "saw that it was good",as per Genesis) the body ( bodies will resurrect as well) and believe it or not even about sexuality (obviously only between straight married couples). Many Fathers of the Church were influenced by Platonism or stoicism so had a more somber account of the world but that s the official position.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

and believe it or not even about sexuality (obviously only between straight married couples)

Their actual position is that although only a man and a woman can be married within the actual Sacrament (that is within a Mass) same sex marriages can be 'blessed" after which the couple no longer lives in sin.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

actually mainstream Catholicism has a pretty positive view about the material world (because the world was created by God and he "saw that it was good",as per Genesis) the body ( bodies will resurrect as well) and believe it or not even about sexuality (obviously only between straight married couples). Many Fathers of the Church were influenced by Platonism or stoicism so had a more somber account of the world but that s the official position.

Bible says Adam & Eve were cast out of Eden to suffer as punishment for eating from the tree of Knowledge. Suffer giving birth in pain etc.

 

[skipjames]

Their actual position is that although only a man and a woman can be married within the actual Sacrament (that is within a Mass) same sex marriages can be 'blessed" after which the couple no longer lives in sin.

It s the current position of the German Synod of Bishops, that allegedly concerned about "necessary reforms" is IMHO concerned about the fact that way less people are paying the Kirchesteuer (German Church Tax) So they are looking for new customers , are pushing for the ordination of women, the blessing of same sex couples etc. Great idea as there are not that many gays that care about being blessed by a priest of a Church that has condemned any kind of sex but the unitive and procreative since and there are no long queues of women wanting to be ordained. There are, however, still practising Catholic and don t wanna support a Church which is defending positions totally at odds with Catholicism https://www.ncregister.com/news/lea...holic-german-faithful-face-church-tax-dilemma

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

It s the current position of the German Synod of Bishops, that allegedly concerned about "necessary reforms" is IMHO concerned about the fact that way less people are paying the Kirchesteuer (German Church Tax) So they are looking for new customers , are pushing for the ordination of women, the blessing of same sex couples etc. Great idea as there are not that many gays that care about being blessed by a priest of a Church that has condemned any kind of sex but the unitive and procreative since and there are no long queues of women wanting to be ordained. There are, however, still practising Catholic and don t wanna support a Church which is defending positions totally at odds with Catholicism https://www.ncregister.com/news/lea...holic-german-faithful-face-church-tax-dilemma

The article you quoted states that it is the German Bishops, but in actuality that's the state of the Church at large. There are many same sex couples in my parish that are married and in good standing with the Church in accordance with the present pastoral view.

Are you one of those who claim that the only way to remain Catholic is to leave it as stated by the article? Pardon me, but that's exactly what Martin Luther said when he started the Protestant Revolution, so that position is essentially a "catch 22."

 

[skipjames]

Look, I don t wanna be the Holier than thou but your parish- my parish-any Catholic parish is supposed to teach and follow and old fashioned thing called " Cathechism of The Catholic Church" according to which as me and my missus are not married ( yet) but live together ( not to mention that couple of drug issues I have) I cannot even go to Confession, let alone receive the Eucharist. And gay married couples are in a similar irregular situation ( unless they are doing some spiritual .. whatever that s between them your parish priest and God) . Can u show me some Vatican document authorizing this pastoral view of yours and this rite of blessing? Because if you follow a different Catechism and have different rites u are the protestants, not me, I might be a shitty Catholic, but still I m Catholic, u guys?

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Look, I don t wanna be the Holier than thou but your parish- my parish-any Catholic parish is supposed to teach and follow and old fashioned thing called " Cathechism of The Catholic Church" according to which as me and my missus are not married ( yet) but live together ( not to mention that couple of drug issues I have) I cannot even go to Confession, let alone receive the Eucharist. And gay married couples are in a similar irregular situation ( unless they are doing some spiritual .. whatever that s between them your parish priest and God) . Can u show me some Vatican document authorizing this pastoral view of yours and this rite of blessing? Because if you follow a different Catechism and have different rites u are the protestants, not me, I might be a shitty Catholic, but still I m Catholic, u guys?

You are certainly entitled with your opinion. Do I have to remind you that everyone sins, and they are ALL forgivable by God. Jesus gets to forgive their sins regardless of any sins against catechism teachings and He doesn't need your approval.

 

[skipjames]

You are certainly entitled with your opinion

That s very kind of you, but Catholicism is not an opinion, is a set of beliefs and practices, do´s and don'ts, a certain structure etc. You at least believe (even if u cannot live accordingly to )the teachings of the Church (Infallible on Faith and Morals?U are Catholic . U don t

everyone sins, and they are ALL forgivable by God. Jesus gets to forgive their sins regardless of any sins against catechism teachings and He doesn't need your approval.

I for one sin like a MOFO, but at least I look- hope for forgiveness and I recognize my sins as sins , not as something that should receive a blessing in a made up rite that has nothing Catholic about it. When Jesus saved the adulteress from stoning He said to her "Go AND SIN NO MORE", He did not blessed her and said "go girl, here s some condoms, have fun and YOLO!"

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

That s very kind of you, but Catholicism is not an opinion, is a set of beliefs and practices, do´s and don'ts, a certain structure etc. You at least believe (even if u cannot live accordingly to )the teachings of the Church (Infallible on Faith and Morals?U are Catholic . U don t

I for one sin like a MOFO, but at least I look- hope for forgiveness and I recognize my sins as sins , not as something that should receive a blessing in a made up rite that has nothing Catholic about it. When Jesus saved the adulteress from stoning He said to her "Go AND SIN NO MORE", He did not blessed her and said "go girl, here s some condoms, have fun and YOLO!"

I am well aware of Catholicism's beliefs and practices. I have been learning about them way before Vatican II, let alone the this Synod Movement you speak of. I attended a Catholic Seminary and was in formation to become a Jesuit but stopped because I didn't think I could keep all the Vows. Maybe you can have a frank discussion with your Pastor about this rather than with a random guy on the internet. It's entirely possible you might just have some misconceptions about Catholicism.

Do you know for a fact those same sex married people have not confessed their sins and are attempting to sin no more? I suggest that you concentrate on your sins and confess them, and not make judgements about others.

It is not kind of ME because I don't have the ability to forgive sins. The Priest does. Priests were given this ability specifically when Christ gave us the Sacrament of Penance. What is required is that someone makes a sincere confession and makes a sincere attempt to sin no more. Again, before you judge, can you look into their souls and know for certain that they have not confessed and are trying to not sin ? Until that day, just work on your faults. That simple task has taken me much effort everyday and I am certain I will die short of coming close to any kind of perfection..

We were told not to judge others because that is God's task.

We were told to pray for the Father's will, not ours; and to be forgiven as we forgive others. We ask to be lead away from temptation, and to be delivered from evil.

Have a great Sunday!

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

From a purely philosophical point of view, methinks that s because we are rational animals, the rational is as important as the animal , and many times we fail to find a balance- just middle-between the animality (not "intrinsically evil", feelings empathy etc are part of our humanity) and rationality ( not inherently good, any murderous psychopaths were and are extremely rational, still...)When either pure animality or pure rationality win the day we fuck up.

Yes but you said that god gives us reason as human beings to reach objective ethical truths. But by reason do you mean intellectual reason or spiritual purpose? Because if god gave us the intellectual capability to make reasonable decisions and to make reasonable assessments on things like this, we still have to acknowledge that we are still fallen and our ability to perceive objective reality falls immensely short from that of god who is total reality. Therefore it is safe to say that no modern human who lives in modern civilization is capable of objective ethical truths if in fact morality and ethics can be grounded in objective reality. But I do agree that there has to be a balance between the rational and emotional mind.

Also I agree with Aristotle that morality , virtues and vices are habits, learned by repetition -observation not only by thinking bout it. If we live in a fucked up way surrounded by fucked up people in a fucked up society we are more likely to make fucked up judgement and act in a fucked up way. does it make any sense?

So then you agree with me that objective morality is either non existent or unattainable?

Plus as I said I m Catholic (btw if u don t mind me asking, as you are talking about God, are u religious-if so what s your religion? just curious)

I am of no denomination of any sort. I guess in modern century terms you can classify me as a theist or pantheist but also kind of agnostic at times.

so to me our faulty nature cannot be explained by philosophy alone but also by theology, Original Sin St Paul St Augustine etc. The natural tendency to make wrong judgements, wrong actions and also to do what s bad even if we know what s good. Take me, Mr Catholic Philosophy Professor with a PhD and shit, all coked out and chain smoking as I am writing, even if rationally I am aware pretty aware that this shit is gonna kill me. working on it.....

Theology and philosophy is often one in the same thing. How many Christian leaders have introduced their own subjective interpretations of scripture and it became tradition ?

PS really thanks a lot for this exchange, if there is one thing I don t regret about being a junkie is that I had and have the chance to interact with lot of cool people I would probably never ever met (offline or online) otherwise. Cheers!

Much appreciated.

 

[skipjames]

Do you know for a fact those same sex married people have not confessed their sins and are attempting to sin no more?

Nope , as I said supra I don t know what spiritual journey is going on with them. But I know for a fact that this blessing of gay couple thing is not an approved Catholic rite and policy hence either I don t have understood your point or what s going on in your parish is kinda fishy

I suggest that you concentrate on your sins and confess them, and not make judgements about others.

and you are right, as I keep telling to my Opus Dei and other Catholic hardcorers mates of mine( I don t belong to the Opus Dei but I ve also friends from there) obsessed about "LGBT lobbies" and shit. But as for now I can t go to Confession for the aforementioned reason I m more like the Publican. Prayers welcomed
Worry not, as a Philosophy teacher at a Jesuit Uni I have various opportunities for frank conversation with priests, the only Internet guys I talk with are Aquinas online and the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

Hope we are cool, If I sounded like a cunt my apologies but " we Catholic now bless gay couples" + Lutheran calling made me nervous ( oxy w- d kicking didn t help either) . Have a Blessed Sunday!

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Here’s what I think this should be concluded with. I remember when certain cool nun I know was asked if someone committing suicide goes to hell, asked by me, as I was pissed of by idiots saying he/she goes to hell by Church standards; she responded that no one can know, no one can know what goes trough persons head while for example falling from a bridge and that it’s well possible he/she gets forgiveness in those last seconds. I’m not really fond of Church and neither is that nun really a typical nun but she’s still a part of Catholic order known for helping people.

So when it comes to gays, be it for some reason that it’s still valid it’s a sin cuz it’s so mentioned in the bible (not in the 10 commandments!) it surely is possible to get blessing and forgiveness. Pope did say gays are all Gods children and he loves them too.

 

[skipjames]

then you agree with me that objective morality is either non existent or unattainable?

I think that is existent and knowable ( by reason and or by Revelation)but that due to our fallen nature moral perfection is not fully attainable but we should strive for it. Sacraments helps but now i m going fully Catholicism

 

[skipjames]

Here’s what I think this should be concluded with. I remember when certain cool nun I know was asked if someone committing suicide goes to hell, asked by me, as I was pissed of by idiots saying he/she goes to hell by Church standards; she responded that no one can know, no one can know what goes trough persons head while for example falling from a bridge and that it’s well possible he/she gets forgiveness in those last seconds. I’m not really fond of Church and neither is that nun really a typical nun but she’s still a part of Catholic order known for helping people.

So when it comes to gays, be it for some reason that it’s still valid it’s a sin cuz it’s so mentioned in the bible (not in the 10 commandments!) it surely is possible to get blessing and forgiveness. Pope did say gays are all Gods children and he loves them too.

this nun said the most Catholic thing ever. We dont know what happened to that person when offing him-herself and we should leave to God the last judgement. But we Catholic also believe that the Church is there for a reason so follow her teaching is the ordinary way we have to hope for salvation

 

[SpiralusSancti]

And honestly, that nun was way more in a spirit of real Christianity than most other I met withing Church. Sadly she was looked down by a lot of people for some of her unusual stances and behaviour. As most of the best people within any organization are...

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Nope , as I said supra I don t know what spiritual journey is going on with them. But I know for a fact that this blessing of gay couple thing is not an approved Catholic rite and policy hence either I don t have understood your point or what s going on in your parish is kinda fishy

and you are right, as I keep telling to my Opus Dei and other Catholic hardcorers mates of mine( I don t belong to the Opus Dei but I ve also friends from there) obsessed about "LGBT lobbies" and shit. But as for now I can t go to Confession for the aforementioned reason I m more like the Publican. Prayers welcomed
Worry not, as a Philosophy teacher at a Jesuit Uni I have various opportunities for frank conversation with priests, the only Internet guys I talk with are Aquinas online and the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

Hope we are cool, If I sounded like a cunt my apologies but " we Catholic now bless gay couples" + Lutheran calling made me nervous ( oxy w- d kicking didn t help either) . Have a Blessed Sunday!

We are very cool as I don't make the rules nor do I judge others, including you.

I would be far more wary of the "new Catholic teachings"; like those who do not believe in actual trans-substantiation of the Eucharist than the blessing of non sacramental marriage; be it those of same sex or mixed religion marriages. Or the suppression of Marian devotion and related prayers and religious orders. There are priests who forgive those sins of the flesh when people confess them, then there are others Like Ft James Martin who outright teach sinful theology. There is an important difference. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

The Catholic Church is under attack from within and it is important that the faithful do not stray from Christ's Church. Remember that as a Jew, Jesus went though each and every traditional Jewish religious stricture Himself. In fact that is the message of the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary. He honored and obeyed all of the Mosaic Law. He even gave us not one, but three Sacraments layered inside the Passover/ Last Supper.