Assaulted or deserving?

[facelessgirl]

Assaulted or Deserving?

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=370982 << Please Merge

Thanks for all your replies, I've been reading quite a lot about sexual assaults & this is law in Australia where I live (it's for my own sake ~ I am not in any way considering dragging everyone through the mud with a court case)


Legal Definition of Rape

A person who has sexual intercourse with another person without consent of that other person -

- Knowing that that other person does not consent to sexual intercourse with him/her; or
- Being recklessly indifferent as to whether that other person consents to sexual intercourse with him/her;
- Shall (whether or not physical resistance is offered by that other person) be guilty of rape and liable to be imprisoned for life

The law also states that some people cannot give consent to sexual intercourse. This includes:

a person under the age of 17;
a person with a mental incapacity (for example an intellectual disability or a mental illness) who cannot understand the nature of the act and its potential consequences;
a person who is asleep, or who is so affected by drugs or alcohol that their judgment is badly affected.

Perhaps the OP could elaborate a little more on her protests.

op, did you at any point say the word "no" or "i don't want to do this" or "stop" or anything like that?

Yes. I said no two or three times and withdrew physically - wrapped my arms around my legs, looking at my knees when i said it. I did not shout or whisper, just a normal voice. I cried (as i mentioned in the op). I hid my face as he pulled me toward him. After all this I became just completely unresponsive. These are the flashbacks that I get.

I guess the doubt I convey is because almost straight after I was questioning what had happened. In my head the me vs me conversation went: "I said no!" "Well why didn't stop?" "I said no!" "Surely he would have stopped if I had" "But I did say no.. how could this happen!" "You must not have because he kept going" ..... I was in shock.

I totally cut the guy out of my life after the night. He wrote me a few text messages though with one saying "you've been with all these other guys, so why not me"

I know that with every other guy I have been close with, at each step asks me if i like it ~ if im okay etc and would never continue trying to hump me if i was upset and unresponsive.

And at any time did he hand you an unoppend champagne bottle or at any time during the night did you leave the bottle alone with him?

Yeah, he bought my bottle, opened it and gave it to me. he didnt slip drugs into the bottle - as the intoxication was more or less what you get from a bottle drunken rather too quickly (We were both above the legal drinking age!!)

DON'T GET STUPID DRUNK ALONE WITH GUYS WHO WANT TO SCREW YOU UNLESS YOU WANT TO SCREW THEM!!!!!!!!1

yes, thankyou i realise that now. At the time I had no reason to believe that anything seedy was going to happen that night. we had gone wandering in the dark before, taken e & mushrooms together, he stayed in my apartment for a few nights when he had no place to sleep. well, you get the idea.

Maybe it's the fact that she was so incapacitated that she couldn't deal with the situation, but then afterwards she gets in a car and drives somewhere? Maybe it's something else. Maybe I just don't want her to put herself in the victim role because it seems that doing that is what allowed this to happen in the first place.

I was drunk yes, and my head was spinning and getting in the car and driving a kilometer down the road was INCREDIBLY STUPID, but i just wanted to get the fuck out of the park. When i froze it was not a physical barrier i believe as much mental freeze if that makes sense.

I'm not trying to throw blame on the OP for what happened, but it seems to me that she might have problems that stem from something that happened before this incident.

Yes I certainly had problems before this night.

I was once fooling around with a young woman while we were drunk. She seemed receptive yet nervous to what I was doing. I started to go down on her and she seemed to get uncomfortable and shook her head. I came back up but we still ended up having intercourse.

And what happened between the time she was uncomfortable and the time you had intercourse? I think that is key here. Perhaps you asked her if she was okay? Asked if she was enjoying it/wanted to continue? If she started crying & turned away one her side would you keep going?

her post reads as though she was consistent in her protests, and it sounds attrocious, and frankly, i am annoyed that her emotions have to be further entrenched in self doubt with this post when it could be a cry for help.
OP, an event like this can't be broken apart on a website forum and you need to be open and honest with a therapist, like others mentioned. and whether or not this was "deserved" or this guy was malicious in his act isn't even important to be honest. what matters is that it is harming you emotionally now, and that needs to be addressed.

Thankyou so much for your encouraging words. Its putting things in perspective for me (the entire thread), but will definitely try and talk to my psychologist about it as soon as i can manage. syymphonatic im sorry about what happened to you & hope that you are okay

 

[airforlife]

You can be imprisoned for life for raping someone in Australia? That doesn't give much incentive to keep the victim alive after raping them.

Anyway, if you said no and he kept going that's pretty f'd up.

This guy seems like a total dweeb, he took advantage of the trust you had in him on past occasions to satisfy his own urges.

 

[GlassAss420]

"I mean really, let's not mince words here, the guy got a girl drunk who had spurned his advances, after she was well and goodly drunk he then made more physical advances and when she collapsed on the concrete sobbing he jerked her pants down, pulled her jacket off, and started fucking her motionless crying body."

I agree she was raped, but to me, it is a dick move to not only a. make out with a guy.. but also b. let him finger bang you in public.. and then decide your not up for it?? Ok the guy is a TOTAL ASSHAT for doing what he did, but she should have known better than to put herself in that sitiation.

I know hALF The females on here will hate me for saying that but, regardless of wether or not she was raped, and she definitly was, cause according to the story she resisted quite a bit before he did the deed and penetrated her and undrssed her against her will.. It just wasn't the smartest thing to let someone go that far knowing that he'd prolly want it all and get the idea that she did too.. and after building up to that and turning hm down for months.. just wasn't a smart thing to do on her oart to even allow him to make out with her, even tho he coulda stopped when she was like fuck off or even after making out just to be nice and she wouldn't have been hurt like that and also hatw his guts forver.

 

[GlassAss420]

"If a woman thinks she's been raped, then she has been raped.

The local police may not decide to move forward with the case because of the objective facts, and may not deem it a legal case of rape. However, if the woman feels she's been violated, who has the power to tell her she hasn't? No one, because in her mind, she'll always think that she's been raped.

This is not an objective measure of rape by any means, nor a legal one. However, the person the most affected by a rape is the one who was raped (or believed they were), so the definition of a one-side perceived rape fits for the person who it applies to the most, the "rape" victim.

The woman believes she has been violated. She was unable to stop unwelcome sexual advances, and thus the rape has occurred in her mind. The police probably won't agree with her, but just because she failed to stop the person who wanted to have sex for her, or provide some evidence to make the guy culpable, that doesn't mean she wasn't raped."

Knaw my friend accussed this guy of feeling her up while she was passed out at his house, she and her dipshit friends have called him a "rapist" after the supposed incident where she only even ACCUSED him of feeling up her tits, which most people beleive his side of the story.. so not everyone who says they were raped was, sometimes people don't have respect for what rape really is, cause feeling someone up in their sleep as wrong as it would be just ISN'T rape.

 

[orml]

I'm pretty disgusted by the people who are vehemenitly defending someone who had sex with a girl, after she said no and sobbed, while he was penetrating her...


I'm sorry this happened to you OP.

I'm not trying to sound like a saint here, I've been mean to alot of girls. But not once ever have I moved directly from foreplay with a girl I don't know well, into sex without asking if they wanted to have sex, or if everything was cool.

 

[mooncaller]

I agree she was raped, but to me, it is a dick move to not only a. make out with a guy.. but also b. let him finger bang you in public.. and then decide your not up for it?? Ok the guy is a TOTAL ASSHAT for doing what he did, but she should have known better than to put herself in that sitiation.

Fuck that, consenting to one activity does not mean consent for everything. Think with your big head. No one is obligated to let you stick your dick in them just because they got you horny. The real dick move is expecting that someone owes you their body.

I know hALF The females on here will hate me for saying that but, regardless of wether or not she was raped, and she definitly was, cause according to the story she resisted quite a bit before he did the deed and penetrated her and undrssed her against her will.. It just wasn't the smartest thing to let someone go that far knowing that he'd prolly want it all and get the idea that she did too.. and after building up to that and turning hm down for months.. just wasn't a smart thing to do on her oart to even allow him to make out with her, even tho he coulda stopped when she was like fuck off or even after making out just to be nice and she wouldn't have been hurt like that and also hatw his guts forver.

The problem is that guys let girls think that you're interested in being our friend and we have a reasonable expectation that you should control your peenie weenies and that you getting a boner doesn't entitle you to anything. You getting to finger us doesnt entitle you to anything, us doing anything to you doesnt entitle you to anything else and nor should it be expected.

This girl's only wrong doing was that she was naive enough to believe that a guy will be your buddy and leave it at that. She learned a lesson that pretty much every woman learns eventually, it's just the way she learned it is about the worst way possible.

 

[ChemicalOne]

agree she was raped, but to me, it is a dick move to not only a. make out with a guy.. but also b. let him finger bang you in public.. and then decide your not up for it??

Surely I'm not the only guy here who in his youth was with a virgin? And not saying she was......but seriously....since when does a girl letting you finger her(and god forbid....enjoying it) equal de facto consent to sex? Do you realize how many times i went back to fingering trying to get them to consent to said sex? are you saying you didn't? If making out and letting you finger them was an automatic green light would we have any virgins left?

Look....as adults who've progressed well past most of this perhaps we forget. Yes....GENERALLY once you're there....you are THERE. But it is not a given. It's merely generally indicative. Remember what they taught you in grade school about ASSumptions?

 

[brainslookfunny]

Please don't think that I am attacking the OP with my following inquiry. I understand she said no, and that the guy ignored her pleas and decided to have sex with her anyway. But there is one thing I sincerely wanted to ask.

After you made it very clear sex was unwanted by saying no!, this happened

At this point I have stopped the sobs and stopped doing anything at all. I have no idea why I can't move. Now would be a good time to run.. but I can't

Like a dead fish I am sprawled on the ground, eyes shut, body limp

Well.. I'm trying to be as sensitive about this as possible, and I know the cold text of an internet forum may make this question appear heartless, but I am not trying to be. Why couldn't you stop the sex from happening by physically getting up and getting out of there? I understand you said you froze... Did you think he would hurt you if you stopped him? I am interested because I have heard of this happening to girls before, girls very close to me. And it seemed they all had the power to simply get out of there... but it's not that simple.

Anyway, I'm not gonna push the question, and please don't take this as some backhanded way of me saying it was all your fault. Not at all. I just think it's an important element of the situation.

Wish you all the best

 

[facelessgirl]

assaulted or deserving

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=370982&page=3 ~ plz merge

Please don't think that I am attacking the OP with my following inquiry. I understand she said no, and that the guy ignored her pleas and decided to have sex with her anyway. But there is one thing I sincerely wanted to ask.

After you made it very clear sex was unwanted by saying no!, this happened



Well.. I'm trying to be as sensitive about this as possible, and I know the cold text of an internet forum may make this question appear heartless, but I am not trying to be. Why couldn't you stop the sex from happening by physically getting up and getting out of there? I understand you said you froze... Did you think he would hurt you if you stopped him? I am interested because I have heard of this happening to girls before, girls very close to me. And it seemed they all had the power to simply get out of there... but it's not that simple.

Anyway, I'm not gonna push the question, and please don't take this as some backhanded way of me saying it was all your fault. Not at all. I just think it's an important element of the situation.

Wish you all the best

its a fair question. and the answer doesn't make as much sense as it did in the moment. it was just like i was out of control & had no power to stop it. i think a) because i was wasted so my reactions were initially impaired and b) i was in shock and my left brain completely shut down. something i can equate it to is like when you hear a scary noise in your house and you suddenly feel like your made of stone. i think it has something to do with non-adrenaline & the 'freeze response' whereas adrenaline makes you hyper-alert and allows you to fight/flight.
"if your adrenals pump noradrenaline into your system, you may have a freeze reaction, during which moving or acting is difficult, if not impossible. Some PTSD sufferers have described their freeze reactions as "moving or thinking in slow motion." Others find themselves temporarily unable to move at all."

 

[drugfukkdrockstar]

I find the 'freezing up' part hard to understand as well. A guy i was seeing who was very over powering and dominating with me one time tried to force me to have sex when i didn't want to (i didn't want to be with him anymore and he knew it) and he grabbed me and very roughly shoved me onto the bed. I didn't freeze at all, in fact i lost my temper and kicked the shit out of him and then got up and spat on him. I was waiting for him to belt the shit out of me, but i think the fight i was displaying showed him that he didn't have a easy chance of holding me against my will. So he gave up, called me a psycho bitch, said a few other nasty things then left. I was so friggin mad about it. Not upset at all.... just really mad. I felt like i wanted to kill him. If i knew i would get away with it, i just may have tried to i was that wild about the fact he was forcing himself onto me.

I didn't know this guy for long. Only about 2 weeks, but i had gone on a couple dates with him.

I am lost as to why the OP didn't put up some sort of fight. At least shove him away, or something. I guess we're all different though. Some of us go psycho and get angry, and others freeze up and get really scared. I think in this case getting angry is the better option.

 

[facelessgirl]

assaulted or deserving

plz merge this too http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=5891495#post5891495

I find the 'freezing up' part hard to understand as well. A guy i was seeing who was very over powering and dominating with me one time tried to force me to have sex when i didn't want to (i didn't want to be with him anymore and he knew it) and he grabbed me and very roughly shoved me onto the bed. I didn't freeze at all, in fact i lost my temper and kicked the shit out of him and then got up and spat on him. I was waiting for him to belt the shit out of me, but i think the fight i was displaying showed him that he didn't have a easy chance of holding me against my will. So he gave up, called me a psycho bitch, said a few other nasty things then left. I was so friggin mad about it. Not upset at all.... just really mad. I felt like i wanted to kill him. If i knew i would get away with it, i just may have tried to i was that wild about the fact he was forcing himself onto me.

I didn't know this guy for long. Only about 2 weeks, but i had gone on a couple dates with him.

I am lost as to why the OP didn't put up some sort of fight. At least shove him away, or something. I guess we're all different though. Some of us go psycho and get angry, and others freeze up and get really scared. I think in this case getting angry is the better option.

yes on another occasion i was hanging out with another bloke at his place with his flatmates. we watched a video on his computer in his, then we kissed. he pushed me onto the bed and was like come on, lets do it, i know you want to. he was forcing me down, i pushed him off several times and was able to get away. i high tailed it out of there, he followed me back to the outside of my house. i was angry and pissed. just like you
i only knew this dude for a few weeks. it happened in daylight and i was not f.u.b.a.r. the circumstances were completely different to that other night. my relationship to the guy was completely different also, as you are more inclined not to trust someone you hardly know when you are completely sober.
i dont think you know how you'll respond to a given situation unless it happens

 

[bromance]

Diminished mental capacity on the part of the perpetrator is only a possible defense if he lacked the ability to differentiate between right and wrong by a reasonable person's standards.

She may have overtly or inadvertently led him on, she may have been intoxicated, but when she said NO he should have stopped that instant.

I believe the description of that night includes rape. It is date/acquaintance rape, but that does not negate or diminish the fact that it is still rape. He penetrated her against her will.

Yes, it is stupid to go out and get drunk, and put yourself in a position where you may come into harm's way. But it is not a crime. Rape is a crime.

As for the "they were both drunk so did they rape each other" question: I'm not even going to justify that with further response.

Completely agreed.

 

[Mariposa]

Fuck that, consenting to one activity does not mean consent for everything. Think with your big head. No one is obligated to let you stick your dick in them just because they got you horny. The real dick move is expecting that someone owes you their body.

The problem is that guys let girls think that you're interested in being our friend and we have a reasonable expectation that you should control your peenie weenies and that you getting a boner doesn't entitle you to anything. You getting to finger us doesnt entitle you to anything, us doing anything to you doesnt entitle you to anything else and nor should it be expected.

This girl's only wrong doing was that she was naive enough to believe that a guy will be your buddy and leave it at that. She learned a lesson that pretty much every woman learns eventually, it's just the way she learned it is about the worst way possible.

Gold stars to Mooncaller, Bromance, ChemicalOne, and most of all you, facelessgirl. What happened to you fits the legal definition of RAPE. You said no. He did it anyway. This constitutes sexual assault, because you did not (and furthermore, were unable to by accepted legal standards) provide consent - and that isn't my opinion, it is the law in the OP's jurisdiction.

I find it unconscionable that anyone who posts regularly on a message board related to reducing harm or potential harm from the use of illicit substances could jump down the throat of a person who made a mistake that put themselves in harm's way by getting intoxicated. An analysis of the OP's situation reveals that she did not violate the law by getting drunk, and since the event occurred in private, there is no issue as to public intoxication.

She did not want to be penetrated by the guy's penis. He penetrated her despite her pleas not to. He committed rape.

DFRS: I'll address your point that you find "freezing up" hard to understand with the explanation that many victims of rape/sexual assault/general assault, battery/any violent crime report after the fact that they believe they saved their own lives by submitting to the lesser attack of rape so they would not get murdered. Not to equate the two, but would you rather have someone rob you of your purse or your life in the abstract?

I certainly understand the reasoning behind why one would submit to being raped rather than subject themselves to further angering an attacker to the point of murder. If I were ever raped, I would fight back if I was capable, but I would not fight to the death unless it was the rapist's death. There are many people who are larger, stronger, and more violent than I am. It is my duty to protect myself by any means necessary. This does not exclude submission to a lesser attack to avoid a greater attack. If a 6'3" ex-felon who was building his muscles in prison, by way of example, were to get out and I crossed his path while walking past the many dark alleys I pass when I leave work at night, I would submit in an effort to preserve my life. Without any question. And I would try to block it out of my mind as much as possible so as to lead some semblance of a normal life, to marry, to have children, to not hate sex, to not be looking over my shoulder constantly. No doubt it would take intensive therapy in the best case scenario.

In a court case, the burden of proof is on the people/prosecution/plaintiff, but the victim is represented by all the people of their community/state/country/jurisdiction. Rape is a crime against everyone and all of society. Rape is a violent act, even if she let him "finger" her. Rape is a felony where I live. Rape directly violates another person's (regardless of sex or gender) right to control their own body and who puts what in it.

And if one is capable of rape, a felony (in my jurisdiction and I believe in Aus as well - citation needed), it is not a stretch for a reasonable person to extrapolate that they *may well* also be capable of the felony of murder. Google "felony murder" for further explanation should you require it.

Society cannot send the message that it accepts violent crime by blaming the victim. No means no. How many of the people that would blame the victim have not told someone else to "fuck off" under other uncomfortable circumstances? Or, for that matter, would not do so if placed similarly?

Ever told off a friend? Ever bitched out your parents by rebelling against or sassing them? Guess what: that's nothing compared with a felonious act. Wait, do I see a tattoo or piercing? Do you do drugs? Do you smoke cigarettes or drink?

The only blame for rape lies with the rapist, though the courts propound otherwise. Not enough evidence to prove beyond the high standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" merely means that there wasn't enough evidence. It does not negate that the perpetrator violated another human being in a very destructive way.

I'd rather feed a rapist gruel for the rest of their life and let them rot in a filthy priso cell than spend another of my tax dollars on the war in Iraq.

 

[happyus]

i just wanted to add my penny worth about the whole freezing up thing....when you're being held down and being forced to have intercourse everything stops, sound stops, the world tilts off of it's axis and there is nothing you can do about it, your mind is racing with a million thoughts some are fighting,others are 'just stay still and it'll be over quicker', your body becomes numb and disconnected and all you can feel is the blood in your ears. then the world catches up in a rush and it's over.......or at least that was how it was for me. i struggled and resisted, before penetration trying to prevent it from happening, after it happened though it was like my soul couldn't deal with the event actually taking place and everything stopped. it's easy to fight to stop rape taking place, but once he's invaded you rape has happened and there's nothing left to fight against.

 

[brainslookfunny]

when you're being held down and being forced to have intercourse everything stops

I definately see what you're saying. It is a little different in the OP's case because he did not hold her down, but he did take her clothes off. She first enjoyed the manual pleasing with his hand, and then held herself in place, or froze as it were. I also asked if she thought he would hurt her, because she had known him for over a year. This is also a little different than some random thug jumping her in an alley, beating her and holding her down.

Regardless, I understand what you guys are saying, that fear can be paralyzing. I imagine myself in that position and I can just say I'd hope to have a weapon if that ever happened to me. Well, at least something to turn the odds in my favor. The thing about submitting in order to avoid something worse makes sense. You can bet if I were female I'd my purse would always have a tazer or some mace. Actually, even as a male I'd like to get some mace. Anyway, thank you for answering my question OP.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

Mariposa - there is no such thing as a 'felony' (or misdemeanor) in Australia. our legal system does not make that distinction. It's simply a criminal act.

Otherwise, I thoroughly agree with your post.

 

[*Venus*]

::hugs:: to OP

Many people forget what its like to be 18 too.. an adult yes- but still conflicted when we are forced to displease a man. It sounds fucked up, but we are raised to be pleasant and enjoyable company whether we realize it or not. She is not being naive at 18, she was being 18. I'm sorry but its a heavy situation for anyone let alone someone who is intoxicated, invaded by someone trusting, and 18. I am not surprised you reacted by freezing up as you did.

You were not deserving sweety, period.

He was an opportunist who didn't give a shit whether the pants he got into wanted him or not. How many guys with any respect for themselves would continue in the situation and not feel wrong?

It was dangerous to lead him on, but in no way does foreplay give permission to intercourse.

 

[brainslookfunny]

You were not deserving sweety, period.

He was an opportunist who didn't give a shit whether the pants he got into wanted him or not. How many guys with any respect for themselves would continue in the situation and not feel wrong?

It was dangerous to lead him on, but in no way does foreplay give permission to intercourse.

qft!

 

[EA-1475]

Assualted or Deserving?

Is there not a third option?

Maybe somewhere in between?

If I walked through Harlem or Compton in Al Jolson blackface and was jumped by some gangbangers for doing so, would I have deserved it?
Surely, I have the right to express myself in any way I see fit. 1st amendment. Freedom of speech. blah blah blah.
Surely, gangbangers are not entitled to jump anyone they feel like.

But by golly, if not getting jumped by gangbangers is a priority to you, then you go about life a certain way. A way that precludes walking through Compton in Al Jolson blackface.
If I choose to do so and end up getting jumped, I could make a fair claim that I have been "wronged" but I am not totally absolved from guilt.

To completely let the OP off the hook is to exonerate if not encourage irresponsible behavior. If rape is something you would like to see less of in this world, letting the OP completely off the hook is not the thing to do.

 

[mooncaller]

The difference between being knowingly, blatantly offensive in a neighborhood known for violence versus trusting a friend to do the friendly thing and not rape you should be apparent enough.