"Ask the Muslim sympathiser" ;)

[Morrison's Lament]

I think you are missing the point - they didn't say anything about Christians and Jews to "make themselves look good" - that is actually what their holy book says about them. It was written at a time WELL before they had any meaningful interactions with Christian and Jewish cultures - let alone negative ones - and thus predates all the politics between the three monotheistic religions.

Remember that since the original Muslim Khalifate spread across the Middle East and to Spain - it was the Jews that sought them out for refuge from persecution in Europe. When Spain was engulfed by anti-semitism and anti-hamitism in the Inquisitions - both Jews and Muslims fled together to the Islamic countries across the ocean in North Africa.

There were special provisions to protect Jews from Christian persecution in Europe and they were encouraged to come to places like Morocco. In less than two hundred years they became a dominant class in the Khalifate - especailly in Morocco where almost all officials of the government were Jews.

There was absolutely no tension between Islam and Judaism untill the Western powers backed the creation of an Israeli homeland in Palestine. As for Islam vs. Christianity - well - they didn't start that one

--- G.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

sohi, I think you need to take a step back from current politics and look at the history of Muslim-Jewish relations. For the most part, Jews were relatively well treated in Muslim countries, certainly in comparison to how they were treated under Christian authority. My grandparents are Iraqi Jews, and this is a topic i've looked into.

Of course, the advent of Zionism defintely soured Jewish-Muslim relations, as they remain today. But the bitterness between the two people has nothing to do with the content of their respective religions, and has everything to do with competing national interests.

If you need any further convincing, consider that Jews always lived in Jerusalem, free to practice their religion under Muslim authority. Indeed, when the European Zionist Jews arrived in Palestine and claimed the land, many of the indigenous Jews were vehemently opposed to Zionism, and continue to be to this day.

Beat me to it while I was making my post!

SoHi: You might want to check out something by Katherine Armstrong, she is a scholar of Judaism in particular but has in recent years immersed herself in Christian and Islamic theology as well. Her books are generally meant to trace interactions between these three major religions, the only one I read was "Muhammed" that focused on the life of the prophet - but I recently skimmed through : "The Battle For God" (about fundamentalism in the three faiths) and it seems excellent!

I read most of the chapter about the Inquisition and it gave some fascinating insights into how Muslims and Jews rallied together to protect themselves from persecution in Europe at that time. It is all very well referenced and she is highly respected.

--- G.

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

Actually, you know what, i am sorry for getting this off topic. Obviously there are two ways of seeing this whole situation and it CERTAINLY isnt as simple as some of you have just tried putting it.

No topic is debated more in the world than who is right, the Jews or the Muslims. So if someone wants a seperate thread on this among the many many already here on BL about this, i will be happy to participate. But in this thread i want to stick with the topic. Sorry for getting off course

 

[Morrison's Lament]

No prob, I agree that it would probably overtake this thread if we continued

--- G:

 

[The Earth Method]

The origins and practices of all religions are irrelevant. Their effects on the actions and behaviours of people who claim to follow them today are.

Cause and effect, cause may well be well intentioned but what is it worth if the effect differs from its intention.

This is why I am atheist because I believe my choice is the only one that allows me to simply exist with no conflict to the beliefs of others.

I follow no religious ethic only a moral code and although I believe following religious commandments may bring better actions through a person, that person should be capable of those actions through their own self if they are inherently good.

 

[zorn]

Not at all...But they arent the ones trying to affiliate themselves with muslims and Allah. Basically, they just want their little piece of land among all the land in the Middle East and to be left alone. Its the muslims who are contradicting themselves. firt they say all this good stuff about Jews and christians (IMO to make themsekves look good) but their actions are horrendous! What other religion has suicide bombers??? So i hardly think it is the same comparing how the Jews feel about muslims to how the muslims feel about Jews.

You need to stop thinking about it in terms of "the Moslems" and "the Jews." There are millions of Jews and billions of Moslems out there... it's crazy to talk about them like all they all have the same opinion.

You and Mahan Atma are both Christians, right -- at least you both say you're Christian -- yet you have very, very different views on politics, the Middle East, other religions, etc. Why assume Moslems or Jews would be any different?

None of the Moslems I know personally are suicide bombers; none think it's OK to go blow up a bunch of random people at a restaurant somewhere. None of them hate Christians or Jews. Hell most of them don't give a shit about politics at all. Just the same way, none of my Jewish friends hate Moslems. The vast majority of them either don't care about politics or they think Sharon is a jackass and the whole region is just fucked.

Nevertheless I've met a few ppl, Jews and Moslems both, full of sketchy bigotry, paranoid conspiracies, and hate. You just can't generalize like that.

 

[WhatAnOddGuy]

Noooo...I am talking about how women are oppressed in Islamic countries worse than anywhere in the world. If this is news to you, where have you been living?

How is anyone supposed to answer this? You ask a question obsensivly about Islam (this thread is about Islam right?) I give you an answer based on the koran as I understand it (granted I havent studied it as much as I'd like to), and you ask about geopolitics. The most I can say is that there are some sketchy motherfuckers involved in the leadership of fundimentalist Muslim countries. Id like to see someone post a line in the koran that describes burkas, but untill I do, I assume that that has little to do with actual Islam.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

Indeed, the veil predates Islam by at least a few hundred years. I believe that actually the ancient Persian and possibly Egyptian royalty was into them, but I'd have to check that to be sure.

Anyway, when the Quran was written it was quite possibly the most radical feminist literature that existed in Arabic at the time! The rights given to women (the Quran describes divine laws of marriage, justice, etc.) were considered dangerously liberal at the time they were introduced.

In fact - I would argue that they would be considered dangerously liberal in many Islamic countries if they were actually introduced today - free from wacky interpretations such as "modest clothing = covering your face" 8)

--- G.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

Seems I remembered correctly about the Persian connection with the veil, more surprising is the Hindu and CHRISTIAN connection :

In the Near East, Assyrian kings first introduced both the seclusion of women in the royal harem and the veil. Prostitutes and slaves, however, were told not to veil, and were slashed if they disobeyed this law.

Beyond the Near East, the practice of hiding one's face and largely living in seclusion appeared in classical Greece, in the Byzantine Christian world, in Persia, and in India among upper caste Rajput women. Muslims in their first century at first were relaxed about female dress. When the son of a prominent companion of the Prophet asked his wife Aisha bint Talha to veil her face, she answered, "Since the Almighty hath put on me the stamp of beauty, it is my wish that the public should view the beauty and thereby recognized His grace unto them. On no account, therefore, will I veil myself............."


.......Throughout Islamic history only a part of the urban classes were veiled and secluded. Rural and nomadic women, the majority of the population, were not. For a woman to assume a protective veil and stay primarily within the house was a sign that her family had the means to enable her to do so.

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html

I found this perspective interesting, also:

"Islamist students believed that the hijab forces rearrangement of the male public sphere to make room for the presence of women. . .


.......This view, similar to Nimco's assertion that the veil allows her great freedom, repositions the veil as a symbol of empowerment, instead of a symbol of submission. Leila Ahmed explores the roots of gender-related questions in Islam in her book Women and Gender in Islam. Historically, the veil has not simply been an Islamic phenomenon; "The veil was apparently in use in Sasanian society, and segregation of the sexes and use of the veil were heavily in evidence in the Christian Middle East and Mediterranean regions at the time of the rise of Islam."

http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/womens-studies/ws399/ws399_03/Projects/Project Huffman/literature.html

Now, remember that this stuff cuts both ways. It's not easy to accomodate a seperate "race" of people in your society - a fairer sex to which totally different rules apply. It draws a great deal of attention to the role of the woman - even though it may be a more narrowly defined role than we are used to - it still means quite a lot. I have noticed that when I travel in Muslim countries the women are very much in charge of everything relating to the family or the home - the husband often has little hope of dictating what is for dinner and denying his wife money for necessities can be considered a humiliation for the man as much as the woman.

Of course there are great variations in this, some women live as total slaves - but that is as much the case in many Buddhist and Hindu countries as it is in Islamic ones. It has more to do with poverty and lack of education than anything else...

--- G.

 

[miamistu]

I don't doubt that the Muslim religion is a peaceful one.

What I know is that those who practice it are often not. Especially those who live in the middle east. I certainly wont pretend thay you can or should generalize everyone who belongs to a group but it is hard to deny that this group does way more than its fair share of ruthless killings in the name of g-d.

Yes, a thousand years ago there was some pretty nasty shit. And yes, the israeli government (and the U.S government) does some things today that I do not agree with, But Muslim governments routinely and intentionally support groups that intentionally kill innocent civilians and children in the name of g-d and politics

Muslims crashed planes into buildings that once stood 5 blocks from an office where I once worked, and Ill admit it, alot of my "live and let live" philosophy died with the 3,000+ (some of whom I knew) on that September 11th day.

 

[Mahan Atma]

^^^And I think some Christians once dropped a few atomic bombs on a couple of cities. Killed a lot more than 3,000 innocent people too, I can tell you that.

And by the way, don't know if you can genuinely call the 9/11 hijackers "Muslims"; they sure weren't very devout Muslims anyway.

 

[miamistu]

Decent point. Although I believe (hope?) we have moved on from the killing of innocent civilians intentionally.

 

[SoHiAllTheTime]

MA: the difference between our government and the governments of the Middle East is that our government is not mixed with Christianity (as much i wish it was, it isnt). So you cant say christian dropped atomic bombs just because our government did. But on the other hand you can say something to that affect about a muslim nation because their governments are mixed with their religion. There is a difference between the two, you know this.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

I don't believe I ever saw any American politician open his mouth even half way open without going on a rant about God in some form or another. You guys have a lot less seperation between church and state than you think, at least from our perspective. You'd have to resign in some European countries if you started talking about the glories of Christianity in front of parliament/congress. But that's kind of off topic

As for Mahan Atma's point about them not being Muslim - it is an excellent one. These guys were very far from being devout Muslims, in fact several of them drank alcohol and fornicated and basiaclly lived sinful lives (not to mention the mass murder part!). Osama commented on this and said that basically God would forgive them their indiscretions and sinful behaviour in this life because they sacrificed their lives for him.

Know what I think? They were a bunch of psychos with no particular religious leanings other than being vaguely Muslim by upbringing and circumstance...

--- G.

 

[fruitfly]

ML -- you're awesome

 

[Morrison's Lament]

Shukran

--- G.

 

[fruitfly]

Afwan habibi! And FYI for everyone on the modest dress for women: in my interpretation (and I realize everyone's is different), the Koran does not require a Muslim woman to conceal her hair or her head. The only specific body part it assigns concealment is the chest/breasts/bosoms ...

Sura 24/31 says "And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests with their Khimar and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty."

Khimar is an Arabic word meaning "covering" or "cloth." Most translations, however, translate this word as "veil," which would indicate a covering of the head, hair, and or/face. Fundamentalists and men in countries such as Saudi Arabia, where women are forced to conceal everything, are actually defying the word of Allah, who required both men and women to make visible their hands and faces (at least!) at all times.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

And according to the Hadith I quoted earlier, Mohammad (saws) himself had a close companion who couldn't get his wife to wear the veil - and basically conceded that she didn't have to according to Islam. And the prophet (saws) should know, right?

I kind of doubt she would have been allowed to continue to stay married to a close associate of the prophet (saws, although I am getting tired of saying that all the time around non-Muslims, lol) if she was violating Islamic law.

--- G.

 

[Mahan Atma]

MA: the difference between our government and the governments of the Middle East is that our government is not mixed with Christianity (as much i wish it was, it isnt).

1) Come on -- Our government is intimately mixed up with Christianity. Look on your money some time, or say the Pledge of Allegiance, or go to a Congressional session where they start out with a prayer. And it isn't merely symbolic. George Bush talks about the guidance he gets from God all the time.

2) The 9/11 hijackers were not a part of any government anyway.

 

[PottedMeat]

Morison's Lament can white wash the issue all he wants. The fact is, Islam is a religion based around the notion of violence and the destruction or death of "infidels". Christians and Jews are infidels, as taught to Muslims from the time they are children.

Israel and many other non-Islamic peoples, have long been under attack by Muslims claiming to be following their religious teachings.

The problem is, these cowardly terrorists have now struck the heart of the US and will be sought out around the world, like the cowarardess pigs that they are, and will be put to death.