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Are we living according to a script?

Man I really can't be fucked discussing this anymore, I feel I've said all I needed to say yet here I am choosing to make another comment. Why is this? It's not because what you believe will affect me at all. It's not because I've been offered a large sum of cash. I just feel like it. Has this desire been influenced by your comment? Yes. Could I close this tab and not give it a second thought? Yes. Does it matter to me whether you see the formation of pixels I just made? Not really, no.
Just because I can think about the effects my actions might have, just because I can deliberate on which course of action to take, does not in any way detract from my ability to do any of the options I'm aware of.
Now if that's not free will, fuck you because that's what I call free will.
I mean some fascist leader could say 'kill this guy or be killed' and I've still got the choice to kill him, or kill myself, or kill nobody and let someone else kill both of us. Of course this isn't displaying any logic I haven't already stated, and I have grown more disinterested in this topic than previously, so much so that this will be the last post you see me make in this thread.
Enjoy your discussion guys, I mean don't worry, you have to write whatever it is you're gonna write anyway... or do you have free will?

You had no choice in posting that comment as I have no choice in posting this one. As you yourself said, you could have chosen just to close this tab, but you didn't because you felt like commenting again. How do you KNOW you had the choice to close the tab rather than commenting when you never did it?

Fuck me sounds like a dummy spit, overturning the chess board.
 
it's my definition and i'll cry if i want to
cry if i want to (free will)
cry if i want to (free will)
you would cry too if it happened to you (determinism)
 
Lol.

You had no choice in returning looking at the posts and commenting. No doubt you'll be back to read this one again but if you don't then you'll never know I predicted you would and so never know I was wrong but if you do return and are reading this then my prediction of your behavior is correct.



You can say you had a choice in whether to choose to comment again or not. You did comment again. Since you did not not comment again how can you prove to anyone or even yourself that you actually had a choice to not comment rather than just a feeling that you could choose.


Try it.
Hold up a hand and think about which finger to fold down. Try to feel the free will in that choice.
Then whichever you choose the opposite wasn't chosen so you can't actually show that you couldve chosen it.


Just like the throw of a dice isn't random or chosen and seems unpredictable but really is just the sum of the forces acting upon the cube in space and time.
In theory any of the sides are potential outcomes, in theory, in reality only one outcome is possible and that's the one that occurred, which we immediately know after the event. Therefore choice and randomness are not what they seem but merely a lack of knowledge, the knowledge exists but we can't access it yet, knowledge about what will happen next.
 
umm, determinism is as mutually exclusive with free will as it gets.

Sorry, I did a proper research of determinism and kinda got it. Thought determinism meant that every single action made by us can be calculated precisely, and there was no free-will involved at all.

Would probably say I'm a casual determinist then.
 
Maybe, if we have enough "thrust" to first get off the ground, and then, out of orbit...

Free will outside of simply receiving the will of God, freely... Relative.
 
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I did not yet the see anyone mention the distinction between mechanistic and statistical randomness/determinism.

Mechanistic randomness would be something radioactive decay. There is no way to influence, predict or otherwise know when any given atom will decay. On the other hand, a macroscopic sample of that nuclide is statistically deterministic for it's decay, i.e. it's half life can be very precisely measured and computed and predicted.

The inverse would be rolling a dice or a roulette table. It is mechanistically deterministic, and functions in accordance with classical mechanics. Never the less, the state of the system after any given roll is statistically random and can not be solved in prospective manner, and it is highly sensitive to initial conditions.

The second example is what (the real, scientific/mathematical, not pop use or new age crank use) area of chaotic systems/chaos theory is about. Systems which are in concept deterministic but which are extremely sensitive to any perturbations in them to produce unpredictable (or very hard to predict) outcomes, the more possible variables and ways they can be changed, the more chaotic the system, and more statically random it will behave.

Mechanistic randomness is important on a microscopic scale (read: quantum scale) but generally absent on a macroscopic scale. Never the less, I'd think that on the scale of individual neurons and ion channels and the like that mechanistically random processes would be important. Of course they would average out over the large numbers and (relatively speaking) long time scales to give rise to something which can be validly approximated by classical explanations...

Know the difference. I'm going to go with the idea that "life" on the whole is deterministic but chaotic.
 
^good point. i, however, would like to note the difference between the unpredictability of chaos and the unpredictability of choice. their common characteristic doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same thing.
 
"There is no way to influence, predict or otherwise know when any given atom will decay. "

No known way.

They may be seeing spookiness in quantum theory merely as they don't yet understand it.
 
"There is no way to influence, predict or otherwise know when any given atom will decay. "

No known way.

They may be seeing spookiness in quantum theory merely as they don't yet understand it.

I doubt it if there ever will be an explanation behind that stuff.. besides that, like I said in a post before, there is no existence without void. It comes first due to the fact existence does not make a sudden jump to void, rather it is the opposite. If that void had no free-will, then how the heck could it start a huge explotion like that which gave birth to millions of galaxies multiplied by hundred thousands of stars. The void chose to let existence come to life. It also had another choice - to let everything be as it was, all empty and lonely :'( If the case would be that the void had no free will, it would lead to the state remaining in static because absolutly nothing at all exists. No laws of physics, no matter, no nothing.
 
@C_K:Explanations exist, they are complex and not very intuitive, but they do exist. Briefly, a nucleus which can decay can do so because it is unstable...not in the ground state. Classical analogy? Picture some sand on metal slide in a playground, and how the sand does not always slip down on its own. Now bang on the slide and then it slides down the slide. (towards its ground state) In the case of our radioactive atom, it's "set off" by vacuum energy state fluctuations, arising from spontaneous appearance of virtual particle/anti-particle pairs, as predicted by, and within the limits of, Heisenberg's uncertainty principal. It is also verified by experiment. Still, the process is random.

@Bottle
a) there is no void is such. (vacuums have energy in them too, take a look at the "virtual" particles I mentioned above.)
b) no larger force made an active choice to "allow" life, it just happens that life is emergent from other, non-life phenomena.
c) You are anthropomorphing the entire universe down the level of particle physics, which is problematic on many levels.
 
@C_K:Explanations exist, they are complex and not very intuitive, but they do exist. Briefly, a nucleus which can decay can do so because it is unstable...not in the ground state. Classical analogy? Picture some sand on metal slide in a playground, and how the sand does not always slip down on its own. Now bang on the slide and then it slides down the slide. (towards its ground state) In the case of our radioactive atom, it's "set off" by vacuum energy state fluctuations, arising from spontaneous appearance of virtual particle/anti-particle pairs, as predicted by, and within the limits of, Heisenberg's uncertainty principal. It is also verified by experiment. Still, the process is random.

Perhaps. I dont know anything about quantum mechanics so obviously I cannot say. However logically it would seem to me that it appears random but in actuality is merely unpredictable because the precise states and causes are unknown. What Im saying is that as in the macro world so too in the micro world, just different forces and processes, that while may not be entirely known but are actually just as deterministic.

See if soemthing is caused then you could in theory observe that cause and so predict the effect. Even if you could never ever observe that cause it might appear random to you but its not. Therefore, in that logic, any thats caused to happen must be deterministic. The event doesnt happen unless the cause causes it to happen and soemthing else caused that cause to happen and so on like clockwork only with immensely complicated rules which give rise to seemingly random behavior, I forget the name for this when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts or something like that like a number of simple rules can give rise through their interactions to a more complex appearance like the workings of ants.

Coalescent? Is that the word Im searching for? Ah I hate it when I lose a word.

Anyway my point is that anything thats caused, causal, cant be random as far as I understand it, as it doesnt occur just anytime anywhere for no reason (random) but happens specifically in response at a certain time and in a certain way according to the forces acting on it that are its cause. Further that the underlying rules of the universe interact in such a way as to ceate emergent properties like consciousness and causal chains that are so complex they appear to be random or its opposite,free will.


Wait, emergent. Emergent is the word I was looking for.
 
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"Philosophers have argued that either Determinism is true or Indeterminism is true, but also that Free Will either exists or it does not. This creates four possible positions. Compatibilism refers to the view that free will is, in some sense, compatible with Determinism. The three Incompatibilist positions, on the other hand, deny this possibility. They instead suggest there is a dichotomy between determinism and free will (only one can be true).

To the Incompatibilists, one must choose either free will or Determinism, and maybe even reject both. The result is one of three positions:
Metaphysical Libertarianism (free will, and no determinism) a position not to be confused with the more commonly cited Political Libertarianism.
Hard Determinism (Determinism, and no free will).
Hard Indeterminism (No Determinism, and no free will either).

Thus, although many Determinists are Compatibilists, calling someone a 'Determinist' is often done to denote the 'Hard Determinist' position.

The Standard argument against free will, according to philosopher J. J. C. Smart focuses on the implications of Determinism for 'free will'.[10] He suggests that, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are not free; if determinism is false, our actions are random and still we do not seem free.

In his book, The Moral Landscape, author and neuroscientist Sam Harris mentions some ways that determinism and modern scientific understanding might challenge the idea of a contra-causal free will. He offers one thought experiment where a mad scientist represents determinism. In Harris' example, the mad scientist uses a machine to control all the desires, and thus all the behaviour, of a particular human. Harris believes that it is no longer as tempting, in this case, to say the victim has "free will". Harris says nothing changes if the machine controls desires at random - the victim still seems to lack free will. Harris then argues that we are also the victims of such unpredictable desires (but due to the unconscious machinations of our brain, rather than those of a mad scientist). This implicitly assumes a philosophy of materialism, which could be disputed along with Harris's hard determinism. Based on this introspection, he writes "This discloses the real mystery of free will: if our experience is compatible with its utter absence, how can we say that we see any evidence for it in the first place?"[11] adding that "Whether they are predictable or not, we do not cause our causes."[12] That is, he believes there is compelling evidence of absence of free will." -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinist

"Other proponents of emergentist or generative philosophy, cognitive sciences and evolutionary psychology, argue that determinism is true.[24][25][26][27] They suggest instead that an illusion of free will is experienced due to the generation of infinite behaviour from the interaction of finite-deterministic set of rules and parameters. Thus the unpredictability of the emerging behaviour from deterministic processes leads to a perception of free will, even though free will as an ontological entity does not exist.[24][25][26][27] Certain experiments looking at the Neuroscience of free will can be said to support this possibility."

"Some (including Albert Einstein) argue that our inability to predict any more than probabilities is simply due to ignorance.[36] The idea is that, beyond the conditions and laws we can observe or deduce, there are also hidden factors or "hidden variables" that determine absolutely in which order photons reach the detector screen. They argue that the course of the universe is absolutely determined, but that humans are screened from knowledge of the determinative factors. So, they say, it only appears that things proceed in a merely probabilistically determinative way. In actuality, they proceed in an absolutely deterministic way."

"The challenge for determinism is to explain why and when decay occurs, since it does not seem to depend on external stimulus. Indeed, no extant theory of physics makes testable predictions of exactly when any given atom will decay. At best scientists can discover determined probabilities in the form of the element's half life.

The time dependent Schrödinger equation gives the first time derivative of the quantum state. That is, it explicitly and uniquely predicts the development of the wave function with time.

So if the wave function itself is reality (rather than probability of classical coordinates), quantum mechanics can be said to be deterministic.

According to some,[citation needed] quantum mechanics is more strongly ordered than Classical Mechanics, because while Classical Mechanics is chaotic (appears random, specifically due to minor details - perhaps at a smaller scale), quantum mechanics is not. For example, the classical problem of three bodies under a force such as gravity is not integrable, while the quantum mechanical three body problem is tractable and integrable, using the Faddeev Equations.[clarification needed] This does not mean that quantum mechanics describes the world as more deterministic, unless one already considers the wave function to be the true reality. Even so, this does not get rid of the probabilities, because we can't do anything without using classical descriptions, but it assigns the probabilities to the classical approximation, rather than to the quantum reality.

Asserting that quantum mechanics is deterministic by treating the wave function itself as reality implies a single wave function for the entire universe, starting at the origin of the universe. Such a "wave function of everything" would carry the probabilities of not just the world we know, but every other possible world that could have evolved. For example, large voids in the distributions of galaxies are believed by many cosmologists to have originated in quantum fluctuations during the big bang."
 
See if soemthing is caused then you could in theory observe that cause and so predict the effect. Even if you could never ever observe that cause it might appear random to you but its not. Therefore, in that logic, any thats caused to happen must be deterministic. The event doesnt happen unless the cause causes it to happen and soemthing else caused that cause to happen and so on like clockwork only with immensely complicated rules which give rise to seemingly random behavior, I forget the name for this when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts or something like that like a number of simple rules can give rise through their interactions to a more complex appearance like the workings of ants.

this is how i see it.

There is a previous event creating what gives substance to the instigating cause which stirs the action, the current event that takes place is predictable to extents, but the results are few. The result of this course of actions then creates the substance of the new instigating cause creating a new event, and the cycle starts over again.

Free will exists in this predictable measure during the event, which will determine the result of the cause, the "fate" of the subject. You can walk down a trail how ever you prefer, at your own pace and risk, but the trail is there, and worn for the next traveler all the same.

To me, God is that whole we are a part of the remainder of, quite simply we are the process of divination, with nearly eternal avenues of existence, or variables, all leading to a single similar destination, the final equation and complete total.

Im sorry if what i wrote is over simplified, but life is a big fat allegory that we see that learn from what we choose.
 
Cognitive psychology has theories about mental models which use scripts to direct behavior like what to do at a restaurant when ordering food.
So according to Cog Psych, yes we do live according to scripts.
 
^a 'Choose Your Own Adventure' script, but still a script.
;)

Your life is for you to try and to be yourself as much as much as possible, and for others near you to feel comfortable to do the same(imo). Choose and read which ever story you feel is most representative of yourself, take how ever long, eventually it will come to a predictable end, predictable by the Author... and roll credits.

How ever the experience sets with you, is what will add to the next evolving series of circumstances.

predetermined motivation .
cause ...
action ....
effect ......
result ..

The result then creates the "substance" or manifests as the new instigating or motivating cause creating a new event, and the cycle starts over again, maybe, seems to me this is the micro cause that does replicate its self in many contexts and scenarios in all nature and its evolving process
 
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It is irrational to believe in either hard determinism or hard indeterminism because if either is the case the experience of rational thinking and understanding is itself meaningless as we conceive it, i.e. the experience of rational thinking and understanding is either part of a fully deterministic flux or it is truly random.

If free will is not the case then there is no foundation to meaning and no alterable consequence to being. To believe in free will or not in such a case is not wrong or right, it's just what happens. Therefore, let's assume there is plenty about our experience we can't comprehend and go about our merry way as free agents.
 
It is irrational to believe in either hard determinism or hard indeterminism because if either is the case the experience of rational thinking and understanding is itself meaningless as we conceive it, i.e. the experience of rational thinking and understanding is either part of a fully deterministic flux or it is truly random.

If free will is not the case then there is no foundation to meaning and no alterable consequence to being. To believe in free will or not in such a case is not wrong or right, it's just what happens. Therefore, let's assume there is plenty about our experience we can't comprehend and go about our merry way as free agents.

The point though of there being Free Will? to myself is a solid experience that is to be learned from, which often is the only way. Freewill to me also is the way we are able to proceed with our personal darhmic path, to come to terms with any karmic issues, or create them.

My freewill practice could be anything, i will use alcohol as an example. If I were to take this into serious consideration; what do i want to drink, how much to consume, when, with who, where and what is my mode of transportation for the evening.? what is there i need to do tomorrow if anything?

As you can probably see and imagine, this freewill exercise as a night of drinking is dwindling away...

How free can your will be if you lose the capability to do so, by being irresponsible?
 
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