Hear Me Roar
Bluelighter
Good question, I have many a times, pondered over this thought. I haven't really come to my own conclusion yet though... I'd like to think we have free will. I'l have a think and get back to you.
-
P&S Moderators: JackARoe
Are we living according to a script?
- Thread starter BottleInABottle
- Start date
infectedmushroom
Bluelighter
We are living according to a subjectively based script of self reflection
It is essential but it is not all that is
It is essential but it is not all that is
Foreigner
Bluelight Crew
Language is logic and logic is ego. The truth is silent and wordless.
There is some part of you that has never changed since birth. It is a more subtle "you" that is not this ego reading or writing words. It does not think. It does not change. It does not demand correctness or need to rectify incorrectness. It is completely still and peaceful, and demands no way of being. That is the real "you". It is not this you who you have been told to think you are - this temporal, empty you.
You can realize this truth by learning to meditate and still the mind. In the absence of thoughts, the real you is Emptiness.
I've, in my own battles, interpreted "free-will" as will- the way, received freely. It has nothing to do with choice. Some traditional thoughts say we have already made the choice, and this is true. Just because I'm basically going to say that it is predetermined, doesn't mean we weren't, in some sense that we can't properly imagine at all times, now, those who made the choice... He/she/that, that made it. It's a matter of perception, and interpretation, to find this truth. And still, there are other ways of looking at it, but what I can't stop seeing, is that we are part of what we are in. Although we might exhibit very complex behavior as a species, and within ourselves, and thoughts, we will always reflect. How can we stop circling a sun... And that, being moved around with the galaxy?
I have also had synchronicities that have left me to delve very deeply into this. Sometimes the number 23 is involved. Lately, my emotional attachment has loosened, or something, in some way. Maybe I numbed myself to it, but I was very passionate with my seeing of it, and what was revealed through searching... passionate to find it, to reveal it in so much important in my life. I began to see it, and hear voices, around the age of 20-21. It was right around 2003. A girl named Alisha was highly involved in my life, not that she was really highly involved, living four-five hours away... But she was always on my mind. I also started to have excruciating pain, around that time, localized to my face, jaw, ear, eyes. I can't really explain but at times I had felt that my face was being crucified. It was non-stop, for at least 7 years in total (Almost, non-stop.), but I found ways to compensate. Some involved releasing pressure from the trigeminal nerve, that runs through the jaw joint, which was inflamed, by use of a removable splint, that restructured my jaw. Misdiagnosis.
Skip forward, some few years later, after finding another girl, and what happened with her ending... I investigate, delving into an obsession that I had developed, of adding character placement together, numbering names and anything I could, or would. With this, I found that the girl I was involved with, when I began to see the number, before, that her name summed to 23. She had been server number 23 at a restaurant, along with so many other things I've probably forgotten, or have buried.
Around the same time (It was a rather dark, and bright, bright time), I reflected on the fact that up to this point, I had had four "relationships" that I had invested myself at all into. I wrote these names down, and then noticed something. If I take the first letter, of each first name, I could spell the word "Mask". Number-wise, using the method that I favored, a sum of 92 could be found for the names, which matched a number of elements in some ordering, by some interpretation... and I made a big deal out of that, too (all big and not, except for one). But 92/4=23, as well. Syllables in all four names, full names, come to 23. I was sort of into the 12/21/2012 stuff, for years, and the relationships even reflect, with "23", this date. One example is at a breakup, of my last relationship, 2300 days were left until 12/21/2012.
As of right now, I've started to take a lot more control of my life (but, control?). For years, I couldn't find independence. Maybe for me, 12/21/2012 was a round point when I finally found a way to support myself. Maybe more than that, but I am not writing anything, if I have anything in mind.
I was born 23 days from Independence Day for the U.S.A. Mother, me. This year, 23 years after the hottest recorded year, we are that hot again, coming soon, and a popular celebration in my city might not take place because the fields of grass are crispy. It began in 1982, 23 days after my birth. Conner Prairie. Conner, John- A settler of my home town, Connersville. Drought. It may or may not happen. Conner has something to do with "dog/wolf", in it's meaning.
Alisha, the one to have a sum of 23 for this name-"Alisha", also shared my mother's maiden name, Finch, before being married recently. I had asked her to marry me, in a message that I set to send, coincidentally, on 12/21/2004. I was on the tail end of a mushroom trip. It was 5:30 A.M., or so. I knew what I wanted, but when it came time, and I had forgotten I had sent the message, perhaps, she called and I couldn't answer. It had been 6 months since I sent the message. I was still suffering, with no known cause. I was living with my parents. I had no job.
I told her there were other things for us. She had left a voicemail... excited, and hoped it was true- that I wanted this. I still to this day hardly grasp how crazy I must have been. At her, I've fathomed, it might have been perfect. Instead of "Mask", it'd simply be "ask". The one I did, ask... *le sigh*. Sometimes I think I did it out of spite, but I was justified by my state at the time, I think, anyways. For her she had just heard the message. For me it had been 6 months. Long story, but anyways, she's now with someone... we remained in good spirits with each other, I think... but she's with someone now, and her last name also has a sum of 23. With this marriage, she now has a full name (number) sum of the only girl after the four that I found myself invested in, 159- which in roman numerals, I found interesting, is CLIX. This one came 203 weeks, and ended 203 weeks from 12/21/2012 (I was born 203 days from the end of the year, from my mother). She was the first one to hit me, like Alisha did... Or something. I can't describe it really to my satisfaction Trying...
We practiced divination. I asked questions, and so did she. One she asked, was who are you/what are you, asking me back the questions I asked her, to ask for me. A voice told me I was her husband, that she was my wife. I doubt it- what the voice told me. Because I want it. She was something else. So much more than I was expecting, when I went to meet her. I wasn't ready to feel that way, so strongly, so fast. I wasn't ready. Plus, she was a stripper, and whatnot.
Now, much into the future, a week after I went out and paid for a prostitute, she posts pictures of herself on facebook, that look like... (not that I'm calling her a prostitute for it.).
But I found, that she has a name sum the same as my mother, for full name, if she were in fact my wife. Many ways, the matrices that I find, especially in those girls that I have naturally invested myself into, or wanted to (did, anyhow, mentally), reflect my mother. Names I came to denote as "Mask", average of which, Alisha, shares my mother's maiden name, Finch. Another way, the total of the four, a higher sum than the method coming to 92, of 227, I found resonated with my mother's birthday, of 2/27. I can play with that number and find 22/7, the 203rd day of the year (and "Pi", aproximately, to stop there), and as I have said, I was born with 203 to go, ...and 9/2 was one way of writing the date I could cut the ending of the four, when I ended with Marilyn, and the reversal of that 2/9, by one way of writing, was a date when she had a lung collapse. She was in the hospital for a week, including Valentines day. Alisha was born on Valentines day.
I sort of forget where I'm at sometimes, writing this. The way I have seen it, through, it has been rather... strange. But what am I expecting?
Uhh, so my mom, and the girl I met after the four, Donna (pictured)- if I had taken a different path, perhaps, have one matching sum of 184, which is 2 to the 3rd power multiplied by 23, 8x23. I didn't connect it, until her ,that my mom had this in her name. I had seen the 184, but I didn't think to divide by 23 back when I did. I guess I had to meet it with more emotion. I found these numbers, and I don't think I saw her again. I saw how perfectly it fit together, as it was ripped apart.
The story continues, but I'm alone, and have been. I can't see it any other way. I found out a year after her that I had food allergies, and by removing milk from my diet, I conquered most of the pain I had been experiencing. The chronic facial pain that I was fighting, went away. I still had a sore throat, but thought that was normal. It turned out I was allergic to more food. Exposure to chemicals (mercury), perhaps, led me to become allergic to even more (food and chemicals), over time. At points, I have felt like I needed a mask, but it could have other meanings, I guess, if it means anything. Thomas, my last name, has another name for it... "Mask", oddly.
So, the connection to my mother. Primal. A natural way to go. Milk, the first allergen discovered, and the most harmful- It caused ear infections throughout my life, before the allergy got to this level in it's causing of symptoms. These would happen chronically through my childhood. They led to a tumor in my right ear, which required a couple surgeries to remove, and reconstruct. A tube, stuck in my left ear for 17 years, or something, supposed to come out on it's own in 2 but inflammation in my ear kept it lodged in, causing even more problems, but solving one, finally fell out, four months after giving up milk. The pain, which was fixed for the most part, had been all around my mouth/face.. but I could barely talk, or didn't want to, or smile, much of the time, when I had it. It's like I'm made to pay attention to all these forms of communication... I have felt. To suffer them. The issues with my ear, and my mouth, face, and with these characters that fall on pages, or boxes on the internet, and numbers. Messages are everywhere, if you can read them, or are made to, or fall in with them, and everything.
Just like my failures's showing order, and as I said before with the one, that as it came together in a way, it fell apart in another, my diseases have revealed structure, in meaning. I've even reveled in them, I would say, for this reason... And find myself silently doing so, without my approval. Perhaps because they give me something to hold onto, and as much as my mind has (seemed to have) left it, my body needs that, it seems.
Sometimes I feel, despite how much I try, I'm a machine. But there, I say I am, but I'm also just me. That machines are also a natural part of this universe... that by nature, everything it contains would have reflection of it, including machines, and computing... That it would be only natural for an interpretation to fall on it (the universe) as an elaborate machine, and perhaps something else, and something else...
That you are just experiencing yourself. Blah blah blah blah blah.
She/they made me feel like/think I was Jesus (or a "robot" "mistaken" for "Jesus", by himself, or).
I have also had synchronicities that have left me to delve very deeply into this. Sometimes the number 23 is involved. Lately, my emotional attachment has loosened, or something, in some way. Maybe I numbed myself to it, but I was very passionate with my seeing of it, and what was revealed through searching... passionate to find it, to reveal it in so much important in my life. I began to see it, and hear voices, around the age of 20-21. It was right around 2003. A girl named Alisha was highly involved in my life, not that she was really highly involved, living four-five hours away... But she was always on my mind. I also started to have excruciating pain, around that time, localized to my face, jaw, ear, eyes. I can't really explain but at times I had felt that my face was being crucified. It was non-stop, for at least 7 years in total (Almost, non-stop.), but I found ways to compensate. Some involved releasing pressure from the trigeminal nerve, that runs through the jaw joint, which was inflamed, by use of a removable splint, that restructured my jaw. Misdiagnosis.
Skip forward, some few years later, after finding another girl, and what happened with her ending... I investigate, delving into an obsession that I had developed, of adding character placement together, numbering names and anything I could, or would. With this, I found that the girl I was involved with, when I began to see the number, before, that her name summed to 23. She had been server number 23 at a restaurant, along with so many other things I've probably forgotten, or have buried.
Around the same time (It was a rather dark, and bright, bright time), I reflected on the fact that up to this point, I had had four "relationships" that I had invested myself at all into. I wrote these names down, and then noticed something. If I take the first letter, of each first name, I could spell the word "Mask". Number-wise, using the method that I favored, a sum of 92 could be found for the names, which matched a number of elements in some ordering, by some interpretation... and I made a big deal out of that, too (all big and not, except for one). But 92/4=23, as well. Syllables in all four names, full names, come to 23. I was sort of into the 12/21/2012 stuff, for years, and the relationships even reflect, with "23", this date. One example is at a breakup, of my last relationship, 2300 days were left until 12/21/2012.
As of right now, I've started to take a lot more control of my life (but, control?). For years, I couldn't find independence. Maybe for me, 12/21/2012 was a round point when I finally found a way to support myself. Maybe more than that, but I am not writing anything, if I have anything in mind.
I was born 23 days from Independence Day for the U.S.A. Mother, me. This year, 23 years after the hottest recorded year, we are that hot again, coming soon, and a popular celebration in my city might not take place because the fields of grass are crispy. It began in 1982, 23 days after my birth. Conner Prairie. Conner, John- A settler of my home town, Connersville. Drought. It may or may not happen. Conner has something to do with "dog/wolf", in it's meaning.
Alisha, the one to have a sum of 23 for this name-"Alisha", also shared my mother's maiden name, Finch, before being married recently. I had asked her to marry me, in a message that I set to send, coincidentally, on 12/21/2004. I was on the tail end of a mushroom trip. It was 5:30 A.M., or so. I knew what I wanted, but when it came time, and I had forgotten I had sent the message, perhaps, she called and I couldn't answer. It had been 6 months since I sent the message. I was still suffering, with no known cause. I was living with my parents. I had no job.
I told her there were other things for us. She had left a voicemail... excited, and hoped it was true- that I wanted this. I still to this day hardly grasp how crazy I must have been. At her, I've fathomed, it might have been perfect. Instead of "Mask", it'd simply be "ask". The one I did, ask... *le sigh*. Sometimes I think I did it out of spite, but I was justified by my state at the time, I think, anyways. For her she had just heard the message. For me it had been 6 months. Long story, but anyways, she's now with someone... we remained in good spirits with each other, I think... but she's with someone now, and her last name also has a sum of 23. With this marriage, she now has a full name (number) sum of the only girl after the four that I found myself invested in, 159- which in roman numerals, I found interesting, is CLIX. This one came 203 weeks, and ended 203 weeks from 12/21/2012 (I was born 203 days from the end of the year, from my mother). She was the first one to hit me, like Alisha did... Or something. I can't describe it really to my satisfaction Trying...
We practiced divination. I asked questions, and so did she. One she asked, was who are you/what are you, asking me back the questions I asked her, to ask for me. A voice told me I was her husband, that she was my wife. I doubt it- what the voice told me. Because I want it. She was something else. So much more than I was expecting, when I went to meet her. I wasn't ready to feel that way, so strongly, so fast. I wasn't ready. Plus, she was a stripper, and whatnot.
Now, much into the future, a week after I went out and paid for a prostitute, she posts pictures of herself on facebook, that look like... (not that I'm calling her a prostitute for it.).
But I found, that she has a name sum the same as my mother, for full name, if she were in fact my wife. Many ways, the matrices that I find, especially in those girls that I have naturally invested myself into, or wanted to (did, anyhow, mentally), reflect my mother. Names I came to denote as "Mask", average of which, Alisha, shares my mother's maiden name, Finch. Another way, the total of the four, a higher sum than the method coming to 92, of 227, I found resonated with my mother's birthday, of 2/27. I can play with that number and find 22/7, the 203rd day of the year (and "Pi", aproximately, to stop there), and as I have said, I was born with 203 to go, ...and 9/2 was one way of writing the date I could cut the ending of the four, when I ended with Marilyn, and the reversal of that 2/9, by one way of writing, was a date when she had a lung collapse. She was in the hospital for a week, including Valentines day. Alisha was born on Valentines day.
I sort of forget where I'm at sometimes, writing this. The way I have seen it, through, it has been rather... strange. But what am I expecting?
Uhh, so my mom, and the girl I met after the four, Donna (pictured)- if I had taken a different path, perhaps, have one matching sum of 184, which is 2 to the 3rd power multiplied by 23, 8x23. I didn't connect it, until her ,that my mom had this in her name. I had seen the 184, but I didn't think to divide by 23 back when I did. I guess I had to meet it with more emotion. I found these numbers, and I don't think I saw her again. I saw how perfectly it fit together, as it was ripped apart.
The story continues, but I'm alone, and have been. I can't see it any other way. I found out a year after her that I had food allergies, and by removing milk from my diet, I conquered most of the pain I had been experiencing. The chronic facial pain that I was fighting, went away. I still had a sore throat, but thought that was normal. It turned out I was allergic to more food. Exposure to chemicals (mercury), perhaps, led me to become allergic to even more (food and chemicals), over time. At points, I have felt like I needed a mask, but it could have other meanings, I guess, if it means anything. Thomas, my last name, has another name for it... "Mask", oddly.
So, the connection to my mother. Primal. A natural way to go. Milk, the first allergen discovered, and the most harmful- It caused ear infections throughout my life, before the allergy got to this level in it's causing of symptoms. These would happen chronically through my childhood. They led to a tumor in my right ear, which required a couple surgeries to remove, and reconstruct. A tube, stuck in my left ear for 17 years, or something, supposed to come out on it's own in 2 but inflammation in my ear kept it lodged in, causing even more problems, but solving one, finally fell out, four months after giving up milk. The pain, which was fixed for the most part, had been all around my mouth/face.. but I could barely talk, or didn't want to, or smile, much of the time, when I had it. It's like I'm made to pay attention to all these forms of communication... I have felt. To suffer them. The issues with my ear, and my mouth, face, and with these characters that fall on pages, or boxes on the internet, and numbers. Messages are everywhere, if you can read them, or are made to, or fall in with them, and everything.
Just like my failures's showing order, and as I said before with the one, that as it came together in a way, it fell apart in another, my diseases have revealed structure, in meaning. I've even reveled in them, I would say, for this reason... And find myself silently doing so, without my approval. Perhaps because they give me something to hold onto, and as much as my mind has (seemed to have) left it, my body needs that, it seems.
Sometimes I feel, despite how much I try, I'm a machine. But there, I say I am, but I'm also just me. That machines are also a natural part of this universe... that by nature, everything it contains would have reflection of it, including machines, and computing... That it would be only natural for an interpretation to fall on it (the universe) as an elaborate machine, and perhaps something else, and something else...
That you are just experiencing yourself. Blah blah blah blah blah.
She/they made me feel like/think I was Jesus (or a "robot" "mistaken" for "Jesus", by himself, or).
Last edited:
BottleInABottle
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 69
Uhm ok.
Ill make myself into a retard and admit that the philosophy section for me is way too hard to grasp. But I understand to some degree, but it takes a lot of energy to read well developed languag usage. Its really an art form I admire, and wish I possessed the same ability as the majority of you guys.
Will state my opinion of what Foreigner mentioned about that we live in a world of duality, where both free-will and pre-determination exists. I kind of agree with that, because thinking of that we have a soul and a physical body, it means the soul is riding some kind of beast. Basically I think that our physical brain is a beast that is tamed and controlled by the soul. Maybe Im wrong though.
Thanks for the input everyone < 3
Ill make myself into a retard and admit that the philosophy section for me is way too hard to grasp. But I understand to some degree, but it takes a lot of energy to read well developed languag usage. Its really an art form I admire, and wish I possessed the same ability as the majority of you guys.
Will state my opinion of what Foreigner mentioned about that we live in a world of duality, where both free-will and pre-determination exists. I kind of agree with that, because thinking of that we have a soul and a physical body, it means the soul is riding some kind of beast. Basically I think that our physical brain is a beast that is tamed and controlled by the soul. Maybe Im wrong though.
Thanks for the input everyone < 3
^it's not as out of reach as you might think. do an introductory course on the classics, or pick up one of the many books covering stuff from descartes on. just read it slowly. 
it helps to get the structure of human understanding and how it evolved to have a better way to analyse and express your own thoughts.
it helps to get the structure of human understanding and how it evolved to have a better way to analyse and express your own thoughts.TurelGrigori
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2010
- Messages
- 64
I think that we can fall back on an "instruction set" that was imprinted on us by our early experiences. I think we often had "scripts" presented to us from parents, educators, peers, and others. We run programming that came from an external source a good portion of the time. A huge number of decisions are "instinctive", done without any aware deliberation. Even the decisions we make with a great deal of deliberation are going to be steered or at least tilted by our previous life experiences and "programming" from other people.
I'm not saying I think we are just programmed. We are capable of being deciders, but analyzing the scripts that we've been handed and the roles we have been cast into is probably a prerequisite for deciding who we want to be.
I recommend "Scripts People Live" by Claude Steiner. He writes pretty clearly about a lot of these issues.
I'm not saying I think we are just programmed. We are capable of being deciders, but analyzing the scripts that we've been handed and the roles we have been cast into is probably a prerequisite for deciding who we want to be.
I recommend "Scripts People Live" by Claude Steiner. He writes pretty clearly about a lot of these issues.
Comrade Kane
Ex-Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 270
Yes.
Its called determinism.
Cause precedes effect. No effect happens without cause therefore everything is caused.
Our actions are caused by our thoughts. Thoughts are physical things not supernatural no matter what the religous claim therefore thoughts must be caused else thoughts cannot occur. Thoughts are caused by our imbuilt programming and the exact state-of-play about us at that time and a million other factors which IF you knew those factors you could predict the future actions of that person. In fact youd be able to know everything that would ever happen as one single algorithm.
This means that nothing is or can possibly be random, ever.
This means there is no free will and all our choices/thoughts are caused by the environment of our thoughts. You might feel like you have free will but thats an illusion.
BottleInABottle
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 69
I've managed to change my view on this. What happened is that I started to acknowledge the existence of free-will, primarily because I came up with this idea that we may be living a game. We experience this game over and over, in slightly varied versions depending on our previous choices, until we manage to get it right. This will finally lead us to the next "stage", whatever that could be. As we are here to learn something, a world without choice is not possible. The ego has no free will, while the spiritual plane does have free will. I previously thought of free will as a two in one definition, but have since changed my understanding. pre-determinism simply applies to the ego, while free-will is the product of our soul.
I don't personalliy believe in free-will though. Well, that's what I think at least as weak willed as I am.
I don't personalliy believe in free-will though. Well, that's what I think at least as weak willed as I am.
i find the free-will/determinism argument meta-ironic. in the face of the magical free-will case, determinism is nice to think. it gives a feeling of complete understanding and a suggestion of knowledge control is nice indeed. but these are moot and utterly nonsensical things in a deterministic actuality. if it were determinism, then you don't understand or control anything. you don't really exist. still, this is no less disconcerting than the megical free self. at the end of the day, one chooses whichever take they prefer. still, what is a preference, really? 
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
Just because you have a set number of options and everything is caused by something, it doesn't take away how random everything is. The choices other people make are still random in your experience.
Like, you decide to walk to the shops. A telemarketer calls, you have a quick conversation letting them know of your disinterest and then walk to the door. You decide you want a drink, so you go have a drink, and then you decide to stare at the painting on the wall for a minute.
Meanwhile, some other fuck is in his house rooting his dog. How did he come to this stage? Irrelevant. He's doing something with his time, and then he makes arbitrary decisions on what he's going to do until BAM! He hits you with his fucking volvo near the shops.
Now, if he'd lasted longer with the dog, or you'd not got that glass of water, you'd be fine.
Now, you could say that there's a reason he got hit, but it's a physical reason based on entirely chance.
I mean every single thing you've done, your entire life, leads up to this very moment.
You could be in an entirely different situation if you hadn't killed that fly, or wiped your ass that extra time, but that doesn't mean you lack free will. You have the choice to do all the things you do, and the choice to do all the things you didn't do.
Just because something is caused, it doesn't mean the cause can't be random.
That is absurd. Completely ridiculous.
If free will didn't exist there'd be nobody in prison because we wouldn't be in control of our actions, right?
Free will has its limits, you need the means to be able to make the choice. The choices (or lack there of) are affected by a plethora of phenomenon. I can't jump off a cliff and 'will' my way into flying because there's this thing called gravity, but I can decide which cliff to walk to and how to jump and when to do it and whether I should piss off the edge or eat an ant crawling on the ground or punch myself in the sack.
If having options and multiple choice isn't free will, what is?
Your actions determine the outcome, irrespective of your intention/presumption/awareness of it, but the fact you choose what your actions are determines your will.
I don't know. Philosophy is just a pretentious way to pass time and gain some feeling of understanding imo. Like shit, whether the knowledge of free will changes anything at all is absurd, because whether you're aware of it or not it's still physically in play.
Like, you decide to walk to the shops. A telemarketer calls, you have a quick conversation letting them know of your disinterest and then walk to the door. You decide you want a drink, so you go have a drink, and then you decide to stare at the painting on the wall for a minute.
Meanwhile, some other fuck is in his house rooting his dog. How did he come to this stage? Irrelevant. He's doing something with his time, and then he makes arbitrary decisions on what he's going to do until BAM! He hits you with his fucking volvo near the shops.
Now, if he'd lasted longer with the dog, or you'd not got that glass of water, you'd be fine.
Now, you could say that there's a reason he got hit, but it's a physical reason based on entirely chance.
I mean every single thing you've done, your entire life, leads up to this very moment.
You could be in an entirely different situation if you hadn't killed that fly, or wiped your ass that extra time, but that doesn't mean you lack free will. You have the choice to do all the things you do, and the choice to do all the things you didn't do.
Just because something is caused, it doesn't mean the cause can't be random.
That is absurd. Completely ridiculous.
If free will didn't exist there'd be nobody in prison because we wouldn't be in control of our actions, right?
Free will has its limits, you need the means to be able to make the choice. The choices (or lack there of) are affected by a plethora of phenomenon. I can't jump off a cliff and 'will' my way into flying because there's this thing called gravity, but I can decide which cliff to walk to and how to jump and when to do it and whether I should piss off the edge or eat an ant crawling on the ground or punch myself in the sack.
If having options and multiple choice isn't free will, what is?
Your actions determine the outcome, irrespective of your intention/presumption/awareness of it, but the fact you choose what your actions are determines your will.
I don't know. Philosophy is just a pretentious way to pass time and gain some feeling of understanding imo. Like shit, whether the knowledge of free will changes anything at all is absurd, because whether you're aware of it or not it's still physically in play.
Last edited:
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
Oh well I guess people would need to be in prison according to some predetermined shit. And by predetermined shit I don't mean the family they were born into or the house they grew up in.
Essentially nobody could truly be held accountable for their actions if they only have one option.
I mean the difference between life and death is enough to provide evidence for free will.
You either choose to sustain your existence or you can kill yourself.
Essentially nobody could truly be held accountable for their actions if they only have one option.
I mean the difference between life and death is enough to provide evidence for free will.
You either choose to sustain your existence or you can kill yourself.
webbykevin
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,719
The mushroom says... "if you don't have a plan you are part of someone elses plan".
Comrade Kane
Ex-Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 270
No I don't believe you can choose to kill yourself because I don't believe we choose anything. There is no way you could just stand up from your computer and go kill yourself. People commit suicide when certain variables are met in terms of suffering and subjective hope and reasoning and coping routines within their programming.
Data comes in and is crunched by the brain and and answer is created but as the level of reality humans deal with is more complex than 0 or 1 data may be incomplete or contradictory. So the data comes in and builds up signal potential until the signal becomes strong enough overflowing into awareness "oh I've just decided chosen thought of something" and translates into muscle movements more data collection updating so on.
The fact that people can change their minds sometimes backwards and forwards multiple times is more evidence of this working. One pathway loses potential as it overflows allowing other data points to be weighed more heavily and so overflow faster and so on.
Nothing is random. You might not be able to predict it and so it seems random. Its not. Random means not only that an outcome is unknown but is UNKNOWABLE BY ANY MEANS even even if you had COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE. It means it's not calculable. That means uncaused, for we can calculate the result of any causes if we had complete knowledge. That would be magic. Magic doesn't exist because nothing happens unless it's caused. If something is caused its neither magic nor random therefore these things don't exist, along with free will.
Self awareness is different from free will/choice. Self awareness is when any array of data crunching logic gates becomes self referential. When it gains knowledge of itself and begins crunching that data as well, not its body but aware of its own data crunching ability. When a thinking mind becomes aware that it is thinking then it becomes self aware.
This requires computing power lots of it and also programming designed to refer to oneself which evolves from programming that refers to ones body.
We are not free not to commit crimes. We are free to do as we will but our will itself is not free. Prison however and justice and punishment changes the data inputs for the mental equation whether to commit or not a crime. Therefore justice should not be about punishment for wrongdoing but to either rehabilitate or prevent further crimes, not vengeance against the criminal who yes bears no responsibility.
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
No. No no no.
Okay, let's start off at the beginning
'There is no way you could just stand up from your computer and go kill yourself.'
Yes, I could. That's the thing about existence, there are options. Just like I could walk to the fridge, or I could crawl, or handstand (if I was capable of doing so) and then when I open the fridge I'm assailed by an array of delicious foods, and I make the choice of what I eat. Now, this choice is usually based on emotional desire, like 'I feel like cake' or it might be a logical desire like 'I want to lose weight so I'll eat this celery' or I could just close my eyes, spin around, and pick up something at random and have that.
Next up we have 'The fact that people can change their minds sometimes backwards and forwards multiple times is more evidence of this working. One pathway loses potential as it overflows allowing other data points to be weighed more heavily and so overflow faster and so on.'
The fact people can change their minds proves we have choices, which proves we're able to control/manipulate our will. Now, as far as pathways go, we don't know whether different thoughts of the same subject move along different pathways (unless you can source me) and that's also not how thought works AFAIK. A neuron needs to gain a certain level of potential energy until it can fire/move to the receptor, yes. Does this mean 2 opposing thoughts can't fire simultaneously? No. It's not about gaining energy/traveling faster, and the weight a thought holds/how much you ruminate doesn't take energy from one neuron and give it to another. We don't fully understand thought and to imply it's that simple is a joke to science.
Next up 'Random means not only that an outcome is unknown but is UNKNOWABLE BY ANY MEANS even even if you had COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE. It means it's not calculable.'
Now this isn't my understanding of 'random', and a mutual understand of 'random' is essential to having any sort of reasonable discussion. Now, random itself has different meanings, I mean by the definition of 'proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern' there are 2 sides. First off, nothing is random. Every action has an unknown pattern. Like, if somebody is to get hit by a car, it's because person A did everything they did to end up in position A and person B did everything they did to end up colliding with person A at position A. On the other hand, if either A or B had done something different, they wouldn't collide at position A, even if they both end up in position A at different times. Because of this, things are random. Everything indirectly affects the pattern. You can't say having a glass of water is the cause of the crash, but you can say having a glass of water contributed to the cause. The fact that person A and B's patterns only collide in one ultimate pattern, or more so, there are many more ultimate patterns in which they don't collide, makes it random. The ultimate pattern is decided by the amalgamation of actions made by everyone, but that is random because people's patterns only interact when they collide. At the same time, every single thing you do, every seemingly trivial action based on whim, is added to your personal pattern, and consequently the ultimate pattern.
Now, if you can understand how I think these patterns are random, good. I'm not sure how well I worded this. If you have something to disprove this, even better.
I mean the fact we're not aware of the ultimate pattern makes it random to us, even if it isn't objectively random. Even then, it's still random to us, and that's random enough for me.
'If something is caused its neither magic nor random therefore these things don't exist, along with free will.'
See above paragraph
'We are not free not to commit crimes. We are free to do as we will'
Paradox!
'but our will itself is not free'
LIES!
Okay, let's start off at the beginning
'There is no way you could just stand up from your computer and go kill yourself.'
Yes, I could. That's the thing about existence, there are options. Just like I could walk to the fridge, or I could crawl, or handstand (if I was capable of doing so) and then when I open the fridge I'm assailed by an array of delicious foods, and I make the choice of what I eat. Now, this choice is usually based on emotional desire, like 'I feel like cake' or it might be a logical desire like 'I want to lose weight so I'll eat this celery' or I could just close my eyes, spin around, and pick up something at random and have that.
Next up we have 'The fact that people can change their minds sometimes backwards and forwards multiple times is more evidence of this working. One pathway loses potential as it overflows allowing other data points to be weighed more heavily and so overflow faster and so on.'
The fact people can change their minds proves we have choices, which proves we're able to control/manipulate our will. Now, as far as pathways go, we don't know whether different thoughts of the same subject move along different pathways (unless you can source me) and that's also not how thought works AFAIK. A neuron needs to gain a certain level of potential energy until it can fire/move to the receptor, yes. Does this mean 2 opposing thoughts can't fire simultaneously? No. It's not about gaining energy/traveling faster, and the weight a thought holds/how much you ruminate doesn't take energy from one neuron and give it to another. We don't fully understand thought and to imply it's that simple is a joke to science.
Next up 'Random means not only that an outcome is unknown but is UNKNOWABLE BY ANY MEANS even even if you had COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE. It means it's not calculable.'
Now this isn't my understanding of 'random', and a mutual understand of 'random' is essential to having any sort of reasonable discussion. Now, random itself has different meanings, I mean by the definition of 'proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern' there are 2 sides. First off, nothing is random. Every action has an unknown pattern. Like, if somebody is to get hit by a car, it's because person A did everything they did to end up in position A and person B did everything they did to end up colliding with person A at position A. On the other hand, if either A or B had done something different, they wouldn't collide at position A, even if they both end up in position A at different times. Because of this, things are random. Everything indirectly affects the pattern. You can't say having a glass of water is the cause of the crash, but you can say having a glass of water contributed to the cause. The fact that person A and B's patterns only collide in one ultimate pattern, or more so, there are many more ultimate patterns in which they don't collide, makes it random. The ultimate pattern is decided by the amalgamation of actions made by everyone, but that is random because people's patterns only interact when they collide. At the same time, every single thing you do, every seemingly trivial action based on whim, is added to your personal pattern, and consequently the ultimate pattern.
Now, if you can understand how I think these patterns are random, good. I'm not sure how well I worded this. If you have something to disprove this, even better.
I mean the fact we're not aware of the ultimate pattern makes it random to us, even if it isn't objectively random. Even then, it's still random to us, and that's random enough for me.
'If something is caused its neither magic nor random therefore these things don't exist, along with free will.'
See above paragraph
'We are not free not to commit crimes. We are free to do as we will'
Paradox!
'but our will itself is not free'
LIES!
BottleInABottle
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 69
I disagree.
If Big Bang could have occured, then that is the proof of existence of free-will. We live in a world of duality, eg. existence - void, on - off. There either is, or there isn't. None can co-exist without eachother, just like how a battery needs two poles to operate. One of them came first though... not existence but void, because the void is necessary, it comes before existence starts. And looking from the other side, without existence, you have absolutly nada. Just free-will, which is an invisible power. So this invisible power probably thought it needed an opposite "friend" so it created matter, which came to be the existence. That has no free-will, everything just follows a certain pattern which can theoretically be calculated by super advanced algorithms.
We don't have any free will as we are basically highly advanced machines... but at the same time we do.
Comrade Kane
Ex-Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 270
Ok I'll just adopt the null position because it's easiest and now since free will is a proposition those proposing it must
a. Define what free will is
b. Define and describe how free will works. What is the mechanism for free will.
c. Explain how in a causal universe a non causal force exists. It's like proposing that god is a first cause because the universe must have been caused and then when asked "what caused god?" you say god doesn't need to be caused. What causes free will? If free will is caused, if a choice is caused, then by definition it is no longer free. Free will is the opposite then of causality.
Look up the definition of randomness in any textbook on the subject and you'll find it is the opposite of determinism. Free will is also the opposite of random for if your choice is random then it isn't chosen, if it's not random then it's caused and therefore isn't chosen.
The choices arise into our awareness and FEEL like that's what we have chosen to do but really it's just a feeling.
The English language and possibly most languages are built around the concept of free will amongst others so it is difficult to describe and explain exactly, ESP using my ifone keypad how free will I'd a meaningless concept.
PS I think you'll find that you can get up and open and close the fridge door 3 times while standing on one leg. That would be caused by my comment and your desire to prove you have free will.
I think you'll find that it's a little harder if I said for you to put a carrot in your bottom, though done would still manage this to prove a point to me, or, at least report they did.
I doubt you could persuade yourself to cut off your little finger, yet if offered large sums of cash, you likely would. That's because the calculus changes. It's not your choice, it feels like your choice, but really it's the calculus going on in your brain weighing up each potential action.
Truly free will would not be biased by any calculations or forces outside your head. Since we know at the very least that the weighting of options influences one action or another, at the very least our free will choices are made under duress.
Therefore for the sake of simplicity there is no NEED to invent another force to accomplish choice when we already have one that's proven to work and proven to feel like real choice. Input equals output. Determinism. If free choice exists then it cannot be seen anywhere nor have any effect, much like today's god really.
a. Define what free will is
b. Define and describe how free will works. What is the mechanism for free will.
c. Explain how in a causal universe a non causal force exists. It's like proposing that god is a first cause because the universe must have been caused and then when asked "what caused god?" you say god doesn't need to be caused. What causes free will? If free will is caused, if a choice is caused, then by definition it is no longer free. Free will is the opposite then of causality.
Look up the definition of randomness in any textbook on the subject and you'll find it is the opposite of determinism. Free will is also the opposite of random for if your choice is random then it isn't chosen, if it's not random then it's caused and therefore isn't chosen.
The choices arise into our awareness and FEEL like that's what we have chosen to do but really it's just a feeling.
The English language and possibly most languages are built around the concept of free will amongst others so it is difficult to describe and explain exactly, ESP using my ifone keypad how free will I'd a meaningless concept.
PS I think you'll find that you can get up and open and close the fridge door 3 times while standing on one leg. That would be caused by my comment and your desire to prove you have free will.
I think you'll find that it's a little harder if I said for you to put a carrot in your bottom, though done would still manage this to prove a point to me, or, at least report they did.
I doubt you could persuade yourself to cut off your little finger, yet if offered large sums of cash, you likely would. That's because the calculus changes. It's not your choice, it feels like your choice, but really it's the calculus going on in your brain weighing up each potential action.
Truly free will would not be biased by any calculations or forces outside your head. Since we know at the very least that the weighting of options influences one action or another, at the very least our free will choices are made under duress.
Therefore for the sake of simplicity there is no NEED to invent another force to accomplish choice when we already have one that's proven to work and proven to feel like real choice. Input equals output. Determinism. If free choice exists then it cannot be seen anywhere nor have any effect, much like today's god really.
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
Man I really can't be fucked discussing this anymore, I feel I've said all I needed to say yet here I am choosing to make another comment. Why is this? It's not because what you believe will affect me at all. It's not because I've been offered a large sum of cash. I just feel like it. Has this desire been influenced by your comment? Yes. Could I close this tab and not give it a second thought? Yes. Does it matter to me whether you see the formation of pixels I just made? Not really, no.
Just because I can think about the effects my actions might have, just because I can deliberate on which course of action to take, does not in any way detract from my ability to do any of the options I'm aware of.
Now if that's not free will, fuck you because that's what I call free will.
I mean some fascist leader could say 'kill this guy or be killed' and I've still got the choice to kill him, or kill myself, or kill nobody and let someone else kill both of us. Of course this isn't displaying any logic I haven't already stated, and I have grown more disinterested in this topic than previously, so much so that this will be the last post you see me make in this thread.
Enjoy your discussion guys, I mean don't worry, you have to write whatever it is you're gonna write anyway... or do you have free will?
Just because I can think about the effects my actions might have, just because I can deliberate on which course of action to take, does not in any way detract from my ability to do any of the options I'm aware of.
Now if that's not free will, fuck you because that's what I call free will.
I mean some fascist leader could say 'kill this guy or be killed' and I've still got the choice to kill him, or kill myself, or kill nobody and let someone else kill both of us. Of course this isn't displaying any logic I haven't already stated, and I have grown more disinterested in this topic than previously, so much so that this will be the last post you see me make in this thread.
Enjoy your discussion guys, I mean don't worry, you have to write whatever it is you're gonna write anyway... or do you have free will?