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are we created equal?

It's funny how easily offended people are.

Anyway, your cynical attitude is a big part of why things are the way they are. Why not work to change it, instead of giving up and settling for less like a coward?
 
- why do we say 'men are equal' when we are not?
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I think tathagata said it best:

"All men are created equal" has to do with equal protection under the law and the ability to persue happiness regardless of our socio-economic standing. However, often racism and classism become institutional, interpersonal, and intrapersonal road blocks to realizing this innate equality."

Equality from a constitutional standpoint does not mean that me and Micheal Jordan are both equally skilled at basketball but that we both have the right to be equally protected or persecuted under the law and are given the same opportunties as everyone else to excel.

- why do we work to equalize when the outcome is always otherwise?
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what else do you say we do? Why would you go out of your way to make things unequal?

why dont we just say we are not equal?
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again, the point by tathagata. We do these things to prevent discrimination by the government.
 
>>
- why do we say 'men are equal' when we are not?>>

Proposing that "men are equal" allows for the current system to lay claim to its own legitimacy. If it were purported otherwise, the system would fall into instability due to discontent from below.

>>- why do we work to equalize when the outcome is always otherwise?>>

Rhetoric does not fill bellies. The system must make certain material concessions to its exploited if its claims of legitimacy are to appear plausible.

>>- why dont we just say we are not equal?>>

see the answer to #1

(these ideas of "mine" are thoroughly Gramscian.)

ebola
 
ChoGrass, I think what you seem to be working with is the problem that theoretical equality does not equal perceived inequalities. We say man are equal because, as Ebola? put it so well, "Proposing that "men are equal" allows for the current system to lay claim to its own legitimacy." However, the real problem with this is that our system is supposed to be a meritocracy when in fact there is a social hierarchy in place that runs contrary to this. There are aspects of society that try to go against the dominant social hierarchy (rebellion) and those that try to keep the established order (conservatism). It is in this dialog between the powerful and the oppressed that "we work to equalize", and while it is true that often the outcome is still inequality, we continue to work that way because to do otherwise would mean domination. To say, "we are not equal" would be equivalent of giving up the dialog and allowing the dominant social hierarchy to win.
 
hm... Ebola's saying sounds more like it, as tathagata points out. (thanks)

and as for pointing finger at me, the 'fuck' with it.
 
every person is created with different genes, hence, we are not equal.

equality of rights is not about our creation, but our perception of others & ourselves.
 
>>It is in this dialog between the powerful and the oppressed that "we work to equalize", and while it is true that often the outcome is still inequality, we continue to work that way because to do otherwise would mean domination. To say, "we are not equal" would be equivalent of giving up the dialog and allowing the dominant social hierarchy to win.>>

or the way I would put it, rather, is that concessions from the powerful to the oppressed in the name of "justice" and associated rhetoric is precisely what allows domination to continue. These concessions would not have been won without struggle though, as you note.

ebola
 
theGreatUnknown said:
every person is created with different genes, hence, we are not equal.

equality of rights is not about our creation, but our perception of others & ourselves.
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bingo.

(not to be smart-ass but,) i've known all along that we were equal (NOT physically, but politically) but forgot why.

i think we do that sometimes... know certain thing, but not exactly why or how? (sky is blue... why??)

but it wasnt always like this right? we werent equal in the olden days of masters and peasants... "men are NOT equal" was the propaganda of the days.

but for now, the balance has shifted to "men ARE equal" propaganda, and i guess it will stay that way until someone comes and says otherwise...
 
Cho, you seem to have a real hang-up over the whole "equal" thing, without a clear definition. We aren't equal in the sense that we are unique individuals. But economic/social equality is a whole different context, and that's dependant upon how humans choose to relate to and treat one another.
 
ur right... i guess im too hungup on 'equal'.... sigh...

it all started with a small thought after smoking a joint and everytime i smoke weed the thought comes back...

but im not too serious about it. guess no harm in questioning...
 
and by the way, why does being equal have to do with dna?
I know people that are stronger and smarter than me.
I also know people who are less intelligent and weaker than me.
They are not equal to me!
They deserve the same oportunity as me..... but they are not equal.

Does a nazi or a kkk member deserve the same opportunity as me?
Most people would say no...... they are scum.....
So we are saying these people are not equal based on thier inability to see humanity as equal ????

Clearly we have found some people that are not equal!
Is that discrimination?

Thinking of people as different does not make you bad or racist! It means you can see and accept the diversity in the world
 
Say you are God.

You tell 100 people, "Climb to the top of this mountain. The higher you go, the more riches you will receive." Naturally, those with the best oxygen capacity/muscle strength will get higher. But some people are smart and choose to train before hand and thus climb higher than even those with some physiological advantages. Thus you have a spectrum of achievement stemming from both innate qualities and learned qualities. Still, some people just can't do it and remain at the bottom.

Next, you change the rules:
"You can now choose between the following activities: climb the mountain, write a book on human physiology, or make power bars."

In this scenario, it doesn't really matter which task you choose. Each one affects the other, and so carry equal weight. Thus all the participants are equal no matter what they are doing.

If there was no book on physiology, then the overall achievement of the mountain climbers would be reduced (no matter who is climbing)

If there were no power bars, same thing.

If there are no mountain climbers, there would be no need for the other stuff.


We are all connected to each other by our different attributes and learned skills.

Think about the millions of people out there who are currently in college, learning how to do all kinds of valuable things. To embark on such a challenge requires some notion of equality. But science is not for everyone, nor is running a business, or wood-working.
 
>>and by the way, why does being equal have to do with dna?
I know people that are stronger and smarter than me.
I also know people who are less intelligent and weaker than me.
They are not equal to me!
They deserve the same opportunity as me..... but they are not equal.
>>

Once again, we are not created physically equal, that is not what "all men are created equal" was meant to say. "All men are created equal" was a declaration that dispite our socio-economic and physical differences that we are, in the end, all men and equal. We all deserve the same rights, privileges, and respect.

>>Does a nazi or a kkk member deserve the same opportunity as me?
Most people would say no...... they are scum.....
So we are saying these people are not equal based on thier inability to see humanity as equal ????>>

A Nazi or a KKK member deserves to compete in the market place of ideas. If they could not compete, then that goes against the idea of free speech, which is essential in a Democratic (Republic). Just because I might find their ideas morally reprehensible does not mean that they don't have a right to think that way.

>>Thinking of people as different does not make you bad or racist! It means you can see and accept the diversity in the world>>

While thinking that people are different does not make you a bad person, placing a value judgment on those differences (black is better than white) and then codifying those judgments into law (segregation) creates massive inequalities that have no place in a just society.
 
As we are all created with a unique physical make-up, we are all equally different from everyone/thing around us... ie, we are all equal. Now lets please forget dna, gene's, race and anything to do with the physical world.
 
Now lets please forget dna, gene's, race and anything to do with the physical world.
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We cant really, considering the initial statement "are we created equal" is referring to our creation, rather than our situation.
 
the full phrase from the declaration is: ""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

it is meant to mean that we are all born with certain rights, and should have an equal opportunity to exercise those rights

of course it's a nice idea, but it seems that some are created more equal than others :\
 
ChoGrass said:
pls help me out here...

can someone pls tell me why we say that men are created equal? obviously we dont look the same... and if it meant by having same rights, i call bullshit coz...
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yeah my bad... he was talking about the creation side rather than the idea of equal side...
 
I don't know if we are equal or not; but in worldly terms, it would appear that we are not. Think social Darwinism. But if there is a God, I hope we are equal in His eyes.
 
i have some bullets to share... first we go back thousands of years...

* individually, we are different. both physically and mentally. (different body and different mind.)

* better physics and mentality made top of the food chain.

* from having better physics and mentality being the way to the top of the food chain, having better father became the way to the top of the food chain.

* in the old days, these difference formed classes. (kings and peasants)

* and it worked for awhile (5000 plus years), but it got weak and corrupt, and was overthrown by people who are discontent with the current structure of the food chain.

* we proposed that we are equal, with equal right to life, liberty and persue of happiness.

* we 'reset' the society, and start again.

* time passes, and we end up with what we have today.

* in an ideal society, we are equal.

* in the real world, we are NOT equal, although we are given the equal rights.

* still, there are certain traits that leads to the top of the food chain, and some that leads to the bottom feeders.

* inevitably, there is still inequality in society.

* still we carry on with 'we are equal' coz that's the way our society works today.

sorry for making this a very long reply...

so, i say, we are NOT equal, although we live in equal society.

and once i say that, and take that to be the underlying truth, i can just get on with my life, and be satisfied with where i am right now, and not feel too angry about all the injustices i see around me. (i.e. people who cheat)

but we all die, and that's that right? kings die, peasants die, rich people die, poor people die, black people die, white people die... we go back to earth, and from there we are born again. so "we were all equal in the end..." (ending lyric from Pink Floyd's Final Cut)

i just feel so futile....
 
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