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are we created equal?

protovack said:
^^^
No. There is no physiological basis for race.
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Um, what about skin color?

As for answering the OP, I'll just quote someone who summed it up nicely:
tathagata said:
When we say, "all men are created equal", we are not saying that all men are born with the same mental or physical prowess, we are saying that because we are all humans we all deserve the same rights and privileges. A White man, an African American man and someone with a mental retardation all deserve to have same rights and privileges that are granted to the greater society as a whole.
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>>Um, what about skin color?>>

What protovack meant is that there is no physiological basis for race as a categorical system. Yes, people all over the world vary in pigmentation and certain facets of facial structure. This variation, however, is continuous, and could be and has been split into any number of categories.

ebola
 
we are not created equal......

There is a lot of controversial biological/dna research going ton at the moment which shows certain races are smarter or stronger on average than others. This is controversial because if the info becomes largely public then it essentially creates a known genetic class system.

the idea of equality should not be about thinking everyone is the same, but being tollerant of all the differences.
 
I am very hesitant to agree with any research that claims to find a specific "race" smarter or stronger than another because the idea of race is purely socially constructed. While it is true that there are definite genetic differences between people, the specific genetic differences that constitute a race is purely socially constructed. For example, hispanic/latino/chicano is a very broad racial classification in the US that can include any pigment from white to black. Another good example is what constitutes being black in the United States is different than what constitutes being black in South America.
 
African americans are generally athletically inclined that white people.
Asian People are shorter than european people.
Asian and black people generally have brown eyes.

These statements are fairly well accepted.
Whist they might not apply to any 1 specific individual, they can be broadly applied to the race in general and are directly affected by the genetics of a given race.
You cannot deny there is differences in race.
Anyone who says there isnt is blind.

There is a genetic difference between a black person, a white person and an asian person, just the same as there is a genetic difference between a poodle and a great dane.....they are different!

So if my skin, eye colour, height and physical attributes can be controlled be the genetics of my race why cant my intellect, my sense of humour or my inclination to fall in love.

Cultural differences are important but in the long run evolution and genetic change is effected by culture.

Maybe a black person is better at athletic achievement than me.
Maybe Im smarter than an asian
Maybe an indian person has longer fingers than me,
Maybe a russian is better at balancing pies on his nose than me....

WHO REALLY CARES?

We are all different...... lets celebrate difference
Not be ignorant to it...
 
U said there was research saying that one race could be smarter than the other.
 
no, you are right.....
you cant measure everyone with the same stick (because people are different)
And you especially cant measure individuals with the same stick...... but as a race there are genetic similarities which are more prone in some races than others.

Why do they use german shepards as police dogs instead of chiauaus?
Because allthough the same species they are genetically better suited.... they are stronger and smarter. Why would this not be the same in humans?

As humans we should however also have the intellect to acknowledge that stronger and smarter does not nescesarilly mean better...

This is why however this kind of research is controversial....... saying one race is stronger or smarter than another is a dangerous political game to play.... this however does not mean it is not true...
 
You still have not shown how race is CATEGORICALLY valid.
Also, your analogy in terms of different breeds of dogs is flawed.
In terms of genetic variability, humans of different races are more akin to dalmations with different numbers of spots.

ebola
 
the research i speak of is largely about identifying if there is genetic difference between us for medical reasons. Imagine if a certain race was found to have a higher likeliness of getting aids or cancer than another. This kind of research can help medicine progress to a level of tailoring medicine for an individual based on his genetic disposition to disease. A noble goal no?

The danger is the information from this kind of research could also expose differences in race that some people would see as 'worse' or 'better'.

I applaud this kind of research for pushing medicine to new levels.... but fear the social consequences of the colected data. A cure for aids/cancer could lead to a world where discrimination is actually justified. People may not wish to breed with a race that is found to be more gentically dispositioned to get a certain disease. A reason for racism would be born.

I stand by my statement that we are gentically different.... it may only be 0.0001 percent different, but we are different. Considering we have 98-99% of the same dna as a chimp I find it dificult to find where we should draw that line. Am I racist for thinking of a chimp as lesser than me?
 
>>the research i speak of is largely about identifying if there is genetic difference between us for medical reasons. Imagine if a certain race was found to have a higher likeliness of getting aids or cancer than another. This kind of research can help medicine progress to a level of tailoring medicine for an individual based on his genetic disposition to disease. A noble goal no?>>

yes. However, because race is not categorically reliable in terms of its genetic correlates, race would not be a reliable way assessing risk for aids or cancer in this example. For the particular race which has a higher likelihodd of having this genetic marker, some individuals would actually posess the marker and some would not. It would be much more efficient to test for said marker directly rather than working from the basis of race.

>>I stand by my statement that we are gentically different.... it may only be 0.0001 percent different, but we are different.>>

Right...but this genetic variation does not covary with race in a reliable way!

>>Considering we have 98-99% of the same dna as a chimp I find it dificult to find where we should draw that line.>>

If you fuck a chimp, no viable offspring will be produced. There ya go. :)

ebola
 
I am very hesitant to agree with any research that claims to find a specific "race" smarter or stronger than another
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That's good because you're right :) If you look at a random genetic sequence....you can determine a variety of things such as gender, predisposition to diseases, etc. But you cannot determine "race."

Punktuality wrote:
African americans are generally athletically inclined that white people.
Asian People are shorter than european people.
Asian and black people generally have brown eyes.

These statements are fairly well accepted.
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My ass they are. Short stature is correlated with nutrition in some cases. Blue eyes can be found throughout the world, but it occurs more in some areas (northern europe). Most babies have blue eyes. The color is due merely to a lack of melanin (which may or may not fill in later in development, depending on several genes which may exhibit complex dominant/recessive forms).

Skin color is based on melanin secretion by cells in the bottom layer of the epidermis called "Melanocytes." Every human has about the same number of them. Variation in skin color results from the fact that these melanocytes express the gene which codes for melanin at different rates in different people. The reason certain groups of people have different melanin expression is probably related to where their ancestors lived and how much UV radiation they got.
 
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we are all created as equals, only some of us don't see it that way, and therefore don't treat others equally. of course, metally disabled people are disadvantaged, but only because others can find no purpose for them. they can still possess a quality of life equal to that of the mentally stable. In some cases, such as autism, this mental disability provides advantages.

then again, I always manage to forget the still born. but if you believe in heaven, wouldn't they be the best off of us all? I don't believe in heaven, that's why this paragraph was started with then again. :P

however, this is only really true if technology and intelligence is spread equally, which brings us around back to people not treating other people as equals.
 
I don't think the statement, "all men are created equal" has anything to do with mental or physical prowess, nor does it have to do with our material or social power. In other words, "all mean are created equal" has nothing to do with being economically or physically equal to all people, "All men are created equal" has to do with equal protection under the law and the ability to persue happiness regardless of our socio-economic standing. However, often racism and classism become institutional, interpersonal, and intrapersonal road blocks to realizing this innate equality.
 
exactly.

obviously physically and mentally we are different. that's that.

but having equal rights? do you really think we have same rights? having equal protection? do we really have equal protection? what protection? do you mean powerful daddy and a million bucks? persue happiness? persue when? do you mean after you've finished your second job of the day and put 3 kids to bed?

right.. we were supposed to be equal....

even in spiritual sense we are not equal. some have rich spirit, where he/she finds peace in any situation, while some are with hateful soul, where he/she is in hell where ever he/she is.

and we are equal?

im not talking about racism, classism, capitalism..... i'm talking about the concept 'men are equal' and how that is fucking us up so bad, we dont even know it.

how discontent we are because of inequality we see everywhere everyday. we were supposed to be equal right?

so, lets just say, 'men are NOT equal'. teach our kids how different we are and how each of us has a place in this world. discourage any thoughts to cross the class border. let them be happy where they are, even if they are doing the lowest job in the world!

(i'm gonna get scorched for this.....)
 
Or maybe we can work to eliminate the "class border".

And if you aren't talking about classism and capitalism, then what the fuck are you talking about? Because that's what you've described.
 
Who's to say that an asian person is smarter or a black person is better at sports simply due to their race? Correlational does not prove causation.

For example, black people may be good at sports because of their diet, or because of their living conditions or because of the conditions they were raised in. They aren't good at sports simply because they're black. A typical black household tends to have more children than does an asian household. Many asian households only contain one child due to the massive population of certain asian countries. More siblings induces more competition between the siblings, which in turn causes a higher tendancy for blacks to have a competitive nature as a trait. Physical sports requires players to be competitive.

Although the latter may not be true, it is one of many theories that may explain why there is a difference of strengths and weaknesses in the races.
 
i'm not talking about classism and capitalism in a sense that:

- i accept that they are there.
- i have no problem with them being there.
- i dont argue they are what they are.

i'm talking about:

- why do we say 'men are equal' when we are not?
- why do we work to equalize when the outcome is always otherwise?
- why dont we just say we are not equal?

that's the 'fuck' im saying, LiveIllegal.
 
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