Are psychedelics all or nothing?

[King-Anubis]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for what seems like a basic question, but I've generally avoided hallucinogens in the past due to a history of psychosis (I was always of the opinion that I didn't want to take anything that could aggravate symptoms) so I'm not too knowledgeable about how they work. Regardless, after experimenting with many other drugs and getting a feel for what minor mental distortion feels like, I started to take an interest in psychedelics - mainly from a philosophical piont of view (I study philosophy and 'justify' non-opiate drug use by claiming I'm doing 'metaphysical experiments' )

Anyway my main question is: is taking psychedelics like flipping a switch? By which I mean is it possible for someone to take a small dose, and feel nothing. Then add a small amount and have a full blown trip?

For example, can you slowly make your way up the doses and feel a gradual increase in effects, as with many other drugs (Such as MDMA, Opiates, Etc). With LSD (I'll probably start with musimol rather then LSD however) could someone take 10ug and feel some small effects, then take 20ug another day and feel the the same effects but stronger? Or is it all or nothing? I wonder because with new drugs I always start very low and work my way up to get comfortable with the effects, as I find that severe anxiety can quickly take ahold when my mind gets heavily distorted in an unexpected way, and was curious whether this strategy would work with hallucinogens.

Thanks in advance guys! Sorry for the basic questions!

 

[crazycatman]

No. There are doses between 'nothing' and 'whole blown trip' that have trippy elements but are still quite grounded in reality.

Re dosing is a bit more iffy because tolerance develops quickly so a redose might not push you deeper but only prolong your current experience.

Also depends on the drug.

 

[laugh]

after stripping my psyche bare i often come out asking 'is it everything matters or nothing matters?'

 

[Solipsis]

There is always a curve: a gradation from threshold effect (minimum noticeable effect) to 'maximum' effect. So it is never 'everything or nothing'.
However some compounds have a steep dose-response curve, that means that above a certain dose the effects build much less gradual.

For example with 2C-E it is sometimes said that between 16 and 18 mg it can appear like a doubling in effect and again between 18 and 20 mg. Not everyone feels that a maximum is reached as quickly as other people. It varies.

Don't get confused by reports on drugs like DMT and Salvia, that - in sufficient dosing - can put a person into another state of consciousness instantaneously. Then it can almost be like flipping a switch, but that is not typical of all psychedelics at all doses. Not at all.

There is also something called a therapeutic index. What this means is the difference in dose that result in minimal effect and the dose that is considered an overdose. It is an indication of safety.

GHB for example is said to have a small therapeutic index because between 2.5-4 ml of averagely concentrated GHB solution is considered pleasurable and ideal for most while on 5 ml you can pass out. That makes it dangerous unless you are super careful. 2C-P is also tricky that way.
With LSD, it is physically very benign so it won't be dangerous to your body even in very high doses, however you can overdose the psychological effect. In my opinion LSD is pretty fair and straightforward when dosing low to moderate doses: the effect you get tends to be linear and proportional to the dose until you get to 250-350 ug IMO. Above that all bets can be off.
I find mushrooms to be less linear in dose-effect relation.

I don't understand why you are willing to take muscimol more readily, especially if you mean in Amanita mushroom form. It is much less predictable to dose that way and the effect can be much less clearheaded from what I know of it. So you are also less likely to be able to control yourself, which is always tricky for people without experience or tripsitters. Yes it is a natural product of the mushroom but perhaps you are completely underestimating what natural drugs can do and overreacting to the fact that LSD is semisynthetic (artificial).

Ideally, a milder drug dan either of these is taken for a first trip. Like one of the weaker 2C's. I don't feel really comfortable with suggesting drugs because that is not what we do here, but have a look in the Index (check the link below in my signature) and scroll way down until you see "Beginners", there are a number of threads meant to inform beginners and it should give you a good idea how to start thinking about these things and how to continue your research until you actually decide to take anything, or perhaps decide against it.

Please do that homework, alright?

 

[crazycatman]

> Like one of the weaker 2C's.
I think 2c-c is great for this (granted I've never tried 2c-d), gives a basic intro to psys, the doses are relatively big, so it doesn't really matter how accurate your chineese mg scale is. Even if you take too much it's quite hard to actually over dose. If you happen to have a bad trip (highly unlikely on 2c-c imo) it doesn't last as long as some of the others. Physically it's also quite comfortable (at least was for everyone I've seen it try).

>For example with 2C-E it is sometimes said that between 16 and 18 mg it can appear like a doubling in effect and again between 18 and 20 mg. Not everyone feels that a maximum is reached as quickly as other people. It varies.
Bit off topic but still.. I've always wondered if this has anything to do with most people using cheap scales that just aren't accurate for such small amounts. But yes, 2c-e can be chalangeing for a first psy. First there is the dose think and if you're one who gets really sick on the come up, that can suck to. However it can also show you some interesting things... perheps as a third or so psy.

 

[SomaResearch]

I don't really have any experience to speak from, only from reports I've read in books and online. I only had one low dose of shrooms by chance a few years ago and never touched a psychedelic since because there are absolutely none available where I live, not even a Liberty Cap to be found after several years of searching. Only had that one opportunity and not another since.

But I would like to think if one is open to dismiss the cause-effect of take substance/have experience, then the brain can be ''trained'' to respond to certain states at will. I have experienced this with Robert Monroe's binaural Gateway program. At first it was only with the audio that I could ''stretch'' my consciousness around my immediate neighborhood. (Not out of body, just a consciousness expansion.) Then later I was able to recreate the same brain state just by concentrating on previous experience. My brain understood what was asked of it and it happened without any outside influence.

 

[c1pher]

"Sorry for what seems like a basic question, but I've generally avoided hallucinogens in the past due to a history of psychosis (I was always of the opinion that I didn't want to take anything that could aggravate symptoms)"

dude if you even remotely think you have psychosis DO NOT take any psychedelics and YES they can aggravete symptoms , even people with latent mental issues.

 

[King-Anubis]

Thanks for all the replies! I think I have a lot of research to do. As for my source of musimol it was going to be Amanita muscaria - mainly because I'm particularly interested in micropsia and macropsia and other perception related distortions, as opposed to being 'transferred' to another world. For example my reasoning for avoiding substances like LSD is that they induce severe hallucinations - and although I'm aware that fly agaric does the same, I've read that it's somewhat 'less' visual. I could be wrong however, and it's something I'm going to have to do more research on.

Furthermore although it's true that I have a long history of moderate psychosis (think schizophrenia-esque delusions and thought disorders without hallucinations). I was under the impression that some psychedelics don't cause long term chemical damage. Even so, I figured my antipsychotic medication would keep it at bay. But, again, I'm only just starting to look into psychedelics so it may be that I decided not to take this route - as much as I feel that these drugs have great potential, it's not worth throwing my life away for one trip.

Either way, I'll continue to research different chemicals. The 2C seem quite interesting - I've also come across DIPT which seems rather safe psychologically in low doses, although the duration is perhaps a little too long and would no doubt cause me severe anxiety - I'm not known for keeping my cool during the first trip on new drugs, I - for example - managed to have a rare bad MDMA experience which was just pure fear and anxiety (since then I've had plenty of fine MDMA rolls). I've also ruled out drugs like salvia for the primary reason that I've read reports of people doing thing which tripping without knowing - like jumping out of windows or trashing their room. I have no interest in loosing all control, as ideally I would like to to be 'conscious' and aware of the experience so that I can carry out a few experiments and make notes (somehow, probably with a dictaphone).

Again thanks for all the replies, they've been very helpful.

 

[RobotRipping]

your antipsychotic medication may very well block the use of all 5-ht2a psychedelics, which most are. Amanita muscaria is different but make sure to check for interactions. LSD isn't a full blown hallucinating trip either, the visuals are the LEAST important aspect of any trip, it's the mind fuck that's going to get you in the end. If you have a fear of losing all control, or that sense of control then be verrrrry careful with psychedelics because if you fight that you will end up with bad trips. Psychedelics are all about letting go and going with the experience, wherever it takes you, to the deepest parts in your mind or wherever else. Definitely do some research. DIPT is some strong shit BTW, not for the faint of heart.

 

[Solipsis]

It sounds like you really shouldn't be touching any psychedelic or deliriant at all, Anubis.

 

[King-Anubis]

It sounds like you really shouldn't be touching any psychedelic or deliriant at all, Anubis.

I think you're right. After doing research I've decided that using psychedelics would probably be quite a self destructive act, and therefore not work the risk.

Cheers for all the replys.