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Are cannabinoids the most expansive hallucinogens?

It's a Good Day said:
Totally. The only good thing is that some are still legal, but the risk vs reward of synth vs cannabis just aint worth it.
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Not that I actually care what drugs you do or don't do, but that's totally not true.... Synthetic cannabinoids are perfectly usable drugs when handled correctly. Now personally, when I say "handled correctly" I mean with the actual chemical, not a blend, and with a scale and stuff... but of course even the blends are doable if you know your own limits and play it safe. There are many recreational drugs that are worse for you than synthetic cannabinoids, like seriously. It sounds like you're just spreading synthetic hate because you either tried them yourself and had a bad time or are only listening to other people who didn't handle their drugs well. Yes, synthetic cannabinoids can give you a bad trip. So can any other strong hallucinogen. Again, they should be treated as their own drugs and not as a replacement for weed, but that doesn't mean they should just be tossed out.
 
Only 2 peop on this site have my em, 2 paranoid 2 give that out. .. Pm not working?.. ill add ya.
 
Wooah, chill my friend
Im all for people doing what they want.

My main argument is why do synths when cannabis is everywhere and all around safe
I dont hate them. Some of the other RC drugs out there like the nbomes and DOx compounds are great due to the lack of availability of 'the real thing" (LSD)
I personally just am opposed to synth noids because weed is so abundant and cheap. I see it as why risk anything when the drug its "copying" is so safe and available


Totally. Use them as their own drug. Couldnt agree more. Sorry sometimes I come off bad when I try to say stuff
 
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For the exact reason I've said a few times now. They are their own drugs, not replacements for weed. Mushrooms are everywhere and all around safe too, but that doesn't mean I don't ever want to use any other psychedelics. I don't believe that people should be using them as weed substitutes, I totally agree with you there, that's how people get screwed over with them. However, I do think they're very interesting tools and if they're treated correctly they're very usable drugs.
 
Synth noids are a godsend to those who need to pass drug test.
Im not hating on your drug there, just offering the less than desireable aspects of it that people can overlook.
Afterall this is a harm reduction forum

We can still be friend bud
 
It's a Good Day said:
Synth noids are a godsend to those who need to pass drug test.
Im not hating on your drug there, just offering the less than desireable aspects of it that people can overlook.
Afterall this is a harm reduction forum

We can still be friend bud
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I understand that, but it's not like I was saying they're perfectly safe and happy drugs. I'm all for harm reduction, that's why I pointed out the potential for intense panic attacks, dangerous side effects in overdose, addictiveness, and this entire thread is about what powerful hallucinogens they can be....

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see the need to try to turn someone off of a drug that they could use perfectly well and enjoy when both the good and bad information has already been presented for them. It's nothing against you personally.
 
Cannabis doesn't have activity at the 5 HT receptors and isn't a proper psychedelic, but regardless I do think in terms of it's effects it is closer to that group than the other drug families. It's very much it's own thing and as far as I'm concerned isn't directly comparable to other types of drugs. I don't think it has anything in common with dissociatives, quite the contrary. As far as it being like a deliriant I also disagree, as it is extremely unlike the anticholinergic compounds. However nutmeg when taken for it's psychoactive properties is often considered a deliriant, and it's effects can be very similar to cannabis.
A lot of people class cannabis as a depressant, and it does seem to affect certain people this way, but many also experience acute anxiety that rises with the dose. Though it can have a sedating effect on some users I don't think of it as a proper depressant as it doesn't slow CNS activity.
 
Interesting that you say quite the contrary about it's relation to dissociatives, as weed has proven to be by far the most similar to dissociatives of the big three in my experience. I think that's what's so interesting about it and other cannabinoids though, people seem to be effected by them pretty differently. I'm not denying that cannabinoids are still their own unique thing though, but I do think they definitely share qualities with the other types of hallucinogens. I haven't taken nutmeg, but I am familiar with diphenhydramine. I haven't experienced anything anticholinergic-like from weed personally, but I know people who have (though mostly I'd say the deliriant-like effects will come from the synthetics). A friend of mine, who isn't experienced with deliriants, was describing convincingly real (until he'd investigated them) hallucinations of small animals moving about in our environment that match my deliriant experiences extremely well once after eating half of a very potent hash muffin.

As for the depressant effects, when my tolerance is very high then weed becomes very depressent-like for me. However, this is generally seen as a negative thing and a sign that I need to take a break so that the true effects can return. I can say the exact same thing of caffeine and I certainly wouldn't call it a depressant in normal circumstances. However, the cannabinoid system and the opioid system definitely do interact, so there is some merit to it.
 
People do seem to experience cannabis intoxication in a variety of subjective ways so I'm not ruling out the possibility that someone such as yourself could catch a dissociative experience from it. Personally I find weed to heighten pre-existing sensations/awareness and bring me very much into the moment, often a little too much, unlike dissociatives where one's surroundings slip away. It is in this way that I find cannabinoids closest in nature to psychedelics. I'm one of those people who doesn't enjoy smoking more than a couple hits of weed at a time, and while I've enjoyed using JWH 018 and AM 2201 several times in general I found them to be way too potent. I don't doubt that someone could get effects beyond the usual scope of weed such as hallucinations if they dosed high enough on certain synthetics, but I found the general feeling and tone of them to be radically different than the effects brought on by deliriants in the datura family. Just one man's opinion though. About cannabinoids having some kind of activity on the opiate receptors, I don't know about that and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't personally find cannabis or it's synthetic counterparts to in any way resemble the opiate high. I wish it did though, believe me.
 
For me it used to cause dreamlike visions when I used to smoke the stuff as a kid. I would say yes it has depressant qualities but I could never fall asleep within an hour of smoking it, hinting that the increased brain activity can be related to stimulants. I agree not only that it is the widest ranged psychadelic drug, and push the point a step foreward by saying, in my opinion, it is the widest ranged psychoactive drug. I have found it to be impossible to predict the effects of the drug with any degree of certainty.

Interesting thread
 
chaos_reigns said:
People do seem to experience cannabis intoxication in a variety of subjective ways so I'm not ruling out the possibility that someone such as yourself could catch a dissociative experience from it. Personally I find weed to heighten pre-existing sensations/awareness and bring me very much into the moment, often a little too much, unlike dissociatives where one's surroundings slip away. It is in this way that I find cannabinoids closest in nature to psychedelics. I'm one of those people who doesn't enjoy smoking more than a couple hits of weed at a time, and while I've enjoyed using JWH 018 and AM 2201 several times in general I found them to be way too potent. I don't doubt that someone could get effects beyond the usual scope of weed such as hallucinations if they dosed high enough on certain synthetics, but I found the general feeling and tone of them to be radically different than the effects brought on by deliriants in the datura family. Just one man's opinion though. About cannabinoids having some kind of activity on the opiate receptors, I don't know about that and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't personally find cannabis or it's synthetic counterparts to in any way resemble the opiate high. I wish it did though, believe me.
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I definitely get what you mean about it bringing you into the moment, now. It effects me very much that way as of late. I could also see how that would be an effect you get most often if you only smoke a couple hits at a time. At higher doses for me, and always when I first started smoking, the dissociation was very severe. Rare out-of-body experiences, intense time dilation, tunnel vision, total separation of my internal thoughts and external dialogue, deja vu feelings, that sensation where you feel yourself moving but it doesn't actually happen until a few seconds later... all that good stuff. Synthetics can give me some flanging vision as well. And CB1 receptors actually inhibit NMDA channels so I don't find this at all surprising. On the flip side, the receptors supposedly also increase communication between 5-HT2A and D2 and are spread abundantly throughout the visual cortex as are 5-HT2A which, as far as I'm concerned, can easily account for both emotional and sensory psychedelic effects. Lastly, cannabinoids actually do work opposite to acetylcholine in certain areas of the brain, i.e. they're anticholinergic (hence the short-term memory loss), which can of course cause delirium in high enough amounts.
If you don't like smoking more than a couple hits of weed at once I'm not surprised that you find JWH-018 and AM-2201 too potent lol. They're generally thought of as some pretty powerful synthetics. However, just as a suggestion, if you really like the psychedelic effects of weed you should try looking into JWH-250 if you ever have the chance. It's so far my favorite synthetic, I think there's something to be said about some CB1 selectivity (though as it's the only "selective" agent I've tried, I suppose it could also be that JWH-250 just happens to kick ass). Every one of my friends who tried it, including myself, got powerful psychedelic effects from it, including but not limited to patterns, faces forming in the trees and clouds, acid-like mindsets, and lots of dissociative effects as well, all with very little incidence of anxiety compared to something like JWH-018... neat stuff.

CB2 agonists have been shown to have their effects reversed by naloxone. I'm not sure about CB1 agonists, but CB1 receptors form heterodimers with mu-opioid receptors if I'm not mistaken and so likely positively modulate their effects. However, just how much narcotic activity it gets out of that I can't say. There is certainly some overlap though, but I wouldn't try replacing opioids with cannabinoids, except for maybe a really selective CB2 agent. I recently tried A-834,735 and it had a heavy body high for me, but I'm not a huge opioid user (they barely do anything to me, natural tolerance runs in the family) so I'm afraid I can't draw too many useful comparisons.

down508 said:
For me it used to cause dreamlike visions when I used to smoke the stuff as a kid. I would say yes it has depressant qualities but I could never fall asleep within an hour of smoking it, hinting that the increased brain activity can be related to stimulants. I agree not only that it is the widest ranged psychadelic drug, and push the point a step foreward by saying, in my opinion, it is the widest ranged psychoactive drug. I have found it to be impossible to predict the effects of the drug with any degree of certainty.

Interesting thread
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^^ I definitely agree with this. Cannabinoids are just crazy, especially weed. I love it. =D I miss those early days....
 
all i want to say here is while i was in amsterdam i got this +25% THC strain 100% Sativa Dr.Grinspoon i rolled a joint but there was so much crystals and dust around i just sniffed it all up my nose, no lie, within one hour i was ABSOLUTELY tripping, with my eyes closed i could see the mushroom membrane deep internal thinking, lasted about 15mins but honestly you could say it was like a bad trip, like a schizo episode(which i am) dark dark thoughts, but it passed and i laughed it off
 
I wish I could get some strains like that around here. X) It's good that you were able to laugh it off, cannabinoids can definitely be pretty dark. They do seem the most schizo of the hallucinogens to me, I've even heard several reports online and from friends of synthetics inducing a state like dissociative identity disorder (aka multiple personality disorder). A good friend of mine got that kind of effect twice from the same blend and said that after he came down each time there was intense craving to smoke more. Crazy stuff....

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to have that heavy of a reaction, but I really don't think I want to try and reach it with a synthetic, no idea what the differences between those doses and dangerous overdoses are. It'd be great if drugs like nabilone were more common and gettable in huge amounts, or if DMHP weren't illegal and could circulate (that'd be intense!). I'd love to have those THC analogues that are actually tested and known to be phenomenally safe like it, at least then there'd be a little variety, but I guess I shouldn't complain and just be happy we have weed at all. 8)

Suddenly I find myself with a craving to eat an ounce of dank. Maybe I'll start a little lower than that, heh. I wonder how much it normally takes to reach a really powerful psychedelic effect? I've never eaten a massive amount before....
 
i've personally always thought of cannabinoids as a blend of psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants, containing fundamental aspects of all three categories.

totally agree with that can't really put anything else to it as im just returning from a broke minded afternoon because of the damn things od can get very dmt like with them get lots of shadow people walking around me and hypnotist ghosts trying to swap places with me so if that's not that top sentence i dnt know what is :) right back to the super glue and brain pieces now where i leave that diagram ? :)
 
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