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Any Atheists here?

i'm not an atheist so i shouldn't even be posting here, i'm agnostic. i'm not interested enough in spirituality at this point to have debated with myself whether there's a God or not, i've gone through spiritual fazes and non-believing phases (usually spiritual means i been binging on dust, k, or dxm)
 
vegan said:
^^ do you think zeus exists?

how did you come to this conclusion?
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If you regurgitate Richard Dawkins words at me and think it impresses anyone than I suggest you go to college and start picking up samples of lizard shit. I like to keep an open mind about things.
 
you haven't answered the question


this argument has been around since the end of belief in old greek mythology
and similar ones since the end of each former religions and regarding any religion that is not yours

many people, including dawkins, use it because it's a good one... if you're willing to listen

but as we can see, you're not interested in listening
why did you even ask the question in the first place if you spit like this on a polite answer?

regardless of the fact that it's the ones believing in fairy tales who bear the task of explaining why, rather than the opposite, here is an argument by dawkins since you also like him... but unfortunately don't try to understand his points, as he points out mid-video
(it's about evolution vs creation rather than the existence of a god, but since you mentioned him)

i'm not willing to spend more time raising other points for now as your first reply strongly hints at a big loss of time if i do so
if you somehow shed your arrogant behaviour during the night, come back with a precise question and i'll answer

a precise one
or precise ones
cause "why did you become atheist?" is way too broad as there are hundreds of reasons to mention



also

you haven't answered the question

answer it before posting more
there's no reason why we should waste time if you're not acknowledging our answers

I like to keep an open mind about things.
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and that's why you believe in what your parents taught you to believe, right?
 
I think a common mistake here is this whole question of belief, no one really believes in all that religious nonsense, they feel they ought to believe, but really and truly if they were totally honest with themselves, they DON"T believe, and they feel guilty because they don't, which doesn't make sense at all because they don't really believe in the thing that is supposed to be judging them for not really believing hahahaha, and so why the guilt, why not just let go of all that burden and start to make your own independent inquiries as to the nature of reality ? because Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.... in fact anyone clinging to an image of a deity, finds themselves in a horrendous double bind.

Love, is not something that can be commanded, it happens spontaneously like sneezing or hiccups, and yet religion says "You MUST, love God" and there lies the trap for the deist, so they go to church and pray, saying I love you jesus, I love you Alah, I love you jehova, yet knowing all the time in the back of their mind THAT THEY DON'T, it must make them feel just terrible, and explains a great deal as to why they go pompously and self righteously marching around the planet trying to convert everyone else, because they are so unsure about the merits of the game they are playing that they push denial to the point of saying "everyone must join my game" to make them feel better, desperate for validation and acceptance.

when other people, not just atheists but people who have all sorts of different spiritual practices like aboriginal societies or new age dolphins and rainbow earth worshiping tree hugging hippies or ET cult members or channellers or psychedelic voyagers....heck ANYONE in fact who disagrees with the deist speaks up and disagrees with them, the deist goes bananas with fear, fear that they are making a total idiot out themselves and could at any moment be found out, have their hypocrisy spread bare for all to see, and this sends them into an absolute swivett because it totally threatens them at the very deepest levels of being.

McKenna quoted from Jung saying the question that should be asked of people is not "why do you believe that ?" but instead "Why do you believe that that is what you believe ?"

then we could move into some more solid ground and lead the conversation in the direction of psychoanalysis instead of just engaging in a shouting match about whether big pappa in the sky is real or not.
 
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Dear outed Atheist
Is it that you don't believe in any kind of ubiquitous thaumaturgy or you don't buy into the 'brackets' of any present religious or spiritual realm? I am not an atheist per say as I do believe in belief. I sense that it is within each of us and one need not go to church or temple to tap into that peaceful part of ourselves although for some, well gee, for many, attending a church or temple works for them. I myself prefer old cedar groves. The only persecution I've encountered comes from a sister in law who claims that all other sects of belief other than her own are wrong. I try to hide my rolling eyes when dealing with this. This is my big problem; I do not understand why certain groups fight amongst themselves, ie. various religions when from what I have researched the message from most preach peace, understanding, loving thy bro and sis, people, all that. Yet as I read further, those who do not believe exactly what is preached are condemned. Interesting. That is why I have never and will never join up with anyone. That and the fact that even the richest (catholic church) say next to nothing about the importance of a sustainable environment. Shame on that..
Buddhism is the closest to my heart, that and old school Earthly ways. Hey, what do you believe in? Hope your well.
 
I have tried to use reason and intuition to build some kind of metaphysical position that resonates with my own experience.

So lets start by analyzing that experience.

What happens to me is this, I wake up every morning after having been in deep sleep, and in that state of deep sleep where I was not dreaming but truly out cold, not experiencing anything, then in that state the idea of me, this ego, this consciousness that I experience when I am awake simply doesn't exist, there is just nothing happening and no-one experiencing it, it's beyond the void, it's not anything.

Where are you when you are in deep sleep ? are you somewhere else waiting to wake up ? no, there is simply nothing. it's like it was before you were born, and so when i think about that it seems that sleep and the reason we do that every single day is a kind of very subtle clue that has been left in the game, because If I was going to play this game I would always want to leave a way out, a doorway, a way of not becoming endlessly lost in an illusion, so sleep is a clue, just as dreaming is a clue.

The closest traditional set of ideas that I find sit comfortably on my understanding and personal experience are the views of Hinduism, which sees the universe as a drama, the big act, a cosmic drama with the one universal consciousness or self playing all the parts.

The mainstream followers of Monotheistic religions follow the myth (The word myth in this context meaning an image) of the universe as a construct, something that was made by God as an artifact, so that whatever you are it certainly ISN'T God, but rather you are separate from God and are under various rules and instructions to toe the line and do what this thing that created you tells you to do or woe betide you you will be judged and punished for disobedience. now there have been many individual christian and islamic theologians who have a much deeper and profound insight into this myth such as Thomas Aquinas and his cloud of unknowing ideas, but most of the peasants in the pews never seem to be intelligent enough to stretch their understanding to encompass and explore these deeper more profound ponderings and are just spoon fed the simplistic immature version from the pulpit, usually by a priest who himself was never taught about these deeper more mature things themselves in theological school.

OK that's one myth, lets explore another....

The Hindu, sees the world as a play, where the Godhead, or Brahman is in reality the only thing that exists, the vedas start with something like "In the beginning was the self, and upon becoming aware said "I AM" and so to this day every sentient creature thus describes itself in this way, with the words "I AM" and then goes on to add their name, their address, their picture of themselves in whatever form of conditioning they have had imposed upon them from childhood (where most of the psychological damage gets done incidentally) and by the way society has responded and reacted to them, thus telling them who they are and who they are supposed to be.

But this Self or Godhead, being the only thing that exists, got bored, and so is playing a game of hide and seek with itself by fragmenting into multiple parts and acting out this fantastic drama, a stage play, with one great actor playing all the parts, and playing these roles so convincingly that it has itself been fooled by itself into believing that the play is not actually a play at all but is real. Wow, what an act !.

This, to me, makes a lot of sense if I really try to imagine what it would be like to be God, because if I really think it through then I can see that in that state of being a self aware consciousness where nothing else existed then one would indeed be bored, and lonely and would have to think up some way of making it interesting. And so the dreams begin.....

Now I'm going to paraphrase Alan Watts here (as he puts it better than I ever could) and describe this process of the dream.

If you were God (or the self, or Brahman or whatever symbol you want to use) and you could go to sleep and dream any dream you wanted, you would at first dream a series of wonderful dreams where all your fantasies and desires were fulfilled, Great love affairs, Amazing music, Fantastic journeys, Beautifull scenery, Good friends, Fine wines, dancing girls etc etc .....

But after you had been doing that for a while you would get bored, because you would always know what was going to happen, and anything already known in this way is already past, do you grock that ? that once you have imagined a story for yourself then it's already happened, that nothing about it would be a surprise because you have already played it out once in the imagination, the book has already been read so to speak, and so in playing out that story on the stage of a dreamt life it would be like seeing a movie when you have already read the book and so know what the ending is going to be.

And so what you would eventually have to introduce is the Surprise, to make it interesting, to add some excitement and some thrills, now how would you do that ?

Well you would perhaps set up the dream in such a way so that you would forget you were dreaming, that you would forget you were the Godhead and that you would forget that you would eventually wake up. you would go as far out as you could go and you would set up a situation where you felt yourself as a small separate individual, a stranger in an unknown world with no understanding of what it all meant and no knowledge of how it would end. the ultimate dream, as lost as lost can be, as far out and as far away from the true position of "I AM" as you could possibly get.

And then, you would find yourself here, reading this post, with all your personal anxieties, beliefs and hang ups, with your own feelings of separateness, with your own individual cares and woes and worries and relationships and struggles and sufferings.

What a grand adventure, what a fantastic dream, what a brilliant cure for the boredom of eternal existence as the universal self aware Godhead, just marvelous.

How do you know that that is not what you are doing right now ?

And so, when the play is over, just as when a real play is over, the actors come out and take a bow, and everyone claps, they applaud the villain for being a good villain and they applaud the hero for being a great hero, but (and this is where the two great myths depart from each other) NO ONE BOOS THE VILLAIN. because the audience knows that it was all just an act, put on to entertain us, and acted so well that it had us on the edge of our seats, laughing, crying, clutching at the armrests with terror, cheering the hero, booing the villain, but all the time really knowing deep down that we were in fact watching a performance.

Now when the actor and the audience are one and the same, well what a great show that would be. hard to wrap your mind around it, but poetically beautiful.

Now I can't prove this is what's happening, and i have no desire to preach it as gospel, but to me it makes a lot of sense based purely on the fractal way in which I seem to be living life on a day to day basis, I wake up in the morning and i assume my role, I form my character, I come to waking consciousness and i put on the mask, I assume the persona of the being called Kevin, but it's just a story that I tell myself every day and in fact it's a story that is constantly changing, people come and go, situations change, lovers and family change, sometimes they die, I change jobs, loyalties, locations, but every single day I go to sleep, stop existing as this character for a few hours, and then wake up and slip into role, put on the mask and away we go again.

What gives me great comfort and peace of mind is... that in this myth (or image) of reality - nothing is fundamentally SERIOUS, there is no judgement, there is no punishment, there is no way of getting it wrong, for the word play can also be used to mean fun, as when children "play", there is no reason for it other than the pure enjoyment of doing so, like dancing, or listening to music, the point of doing it IS doing it, nothing else, there is no purpose, there is no destiny, there is no grand plan that you are supposed to be following.

Returning for a moment to the words of Alan Watts "when you dance you are not trying to eventually arrive at certain spot on the dance floor, when you listen to music the point is not to get to the end of the piece, but to simply enjoy it while it is happening, it doesn't MEAN anything at all".

This idea always puts the ball in my court, it scares a lot of people because it makes the responsibility for your experience yours, there is no one else to blame, you can't pass the buck, you have to grow the fuck up and own your own shit, and realize that it's not all the things that happen to you that define your experience but rather IT"S HOW YOU REACT TO THEM.

I find this a mature and empowering way to look at life.

And so, when the Hindu sees the Christian he say, Bravo ! what a fantastic act, stunning, there is the godhead, so lost, so far out, that he has forgotten that he is the godhead, that he has convinced himself that he is in fact NOT god. and so feels separate from himself.

I like this view, and I have tried (not always successfully) to remember this when confronted by a religious person, I try to remember to not criticize this person but instead to say, my friend, deepest respect, you are playing a VERY VERY far out game.

This makes the phrase Namaste a wonderful way of honouring all beings, by saying, the godhead in me sees the godhead in you - respect.
 
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webbykev, thoroughly enjoyed reading your words. Indeed, it is how we react that lends insight into whatever we be experiencing. Interesting analogies. I tend to believe there are paths we can walk down, choices we make. I don't know if there's a grand plan, just grand daydreams some of which have been lived and some of which are still being daydreamed about. Sounds like you have some good dreams. take care
 
@webbykev: nice version of the Hindu concept of Lila. Did you come up with those words yourself, or did you find them in a book (e.g. Alan Watts). If so, can you refer me to the title.
 
No it's pretty much my interpretation of the myth, I paraphrased watts here and there because I don't think anyone else has explained it better than him.

It's kind of only one part of my metaphysics, I find Hinduism a great way of explaining why we are here (possibly) and then I also draw quite heavily on the Tao (ie, the chinese myth of the universe as an organism) to get a handle on how the mechanics of the thing work, and then some Zen Buddhism thrown in to keep me in the present moment and to act as spontaneously as possible.

I don't profess to have anywhere close to universal truth and don't want to impose my ideas on anyone else but I was always interested in the nature of existence and philosophy and so have spent the last 30 years or so learning about what the great sages and philosophers and thinkers of past had to say on the subject, from all of that I've kind of pieced together a version that works for me.
 
Foreigner said:
I thought atheism was an absence of a belief, hence the "a-" part.
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I'm sure this has been answered by now but the absence of belief is agnotism.
Anyway, thought this thread was interesting because I'd absolutely never really considered the idea that I might be criticised or whatever for being an atheist. Very happy to come from a country where religion is a private affair. In any case I usually consider it kind of rude to be asked if I'm religious or not and I'd never ask someone else that...that's their business, not mine.
 
I have been atheist.

I'm currently in a transitional period; considering various forms of spirituality (or altering my levels of "faith", if you like), assessing the premises/arguments for (and against) agnosticism, monism, pantheism, and others, by studying the different forms of reason (in particular deductive, inductive, and analogical) used to arrive at conclusions; a conclusion is a proposition that follows logically from the major and minor premises in a syllogism; an argument is successful when the premises are true (or believable) and the premises support the conclusion.

That is not to say that I will not go back to being atheist. Aspirations of increasing my awareness and mindfulness are currently the vanguard of this path to enlightenment
 
I used to consider myself a Pantheist, I was brought up a Christian and went to a church school but never brought into the idea that someone else could tell you how to find god.

In recent years I would now refer to myself as Atheist as I don't believe in a god as described in any of the organised religions and take issue with some of the fundamentals of Christianity and Islam ( I'm most familiar with these )

That is to to say I think Christians cannot be good people, I see many in my community doing great things in the name of their religion, the fundamental values of these long standing religions are difficult to argue with as they are basic human good.

I don't believe I need a book or a preacher to find my truth, the idea is ridiculous neither do I believe that people could possibly be punished or considered less of a being just because they either don't follow or are unaware of religious text or teaching.

I believe we have all the answers, we all have access to the truth in its entirety, we are but a wave rising out of the sea which is god is the truth is life is all the reasons for everything, we are blessed to be able to regard the physical universe in an objective manner before we once again return into the endless journey.

Simple values of helping others, doing no harm and striving to be a good person is all the worship that is required IMO, surely even if you believe in some kind of conscious discrete entity that created the universe you can't really believe he would punish a person who had been good and giving all their life simply because they hadn't read the bible, been to church or 'accepted Jesus into their life' whatever that is supposed to mean.
 
I believe the only way out of Atheism (if that's your wish) is to have a personal experience of the power Of God or Christ flowing through you, healing yourself as it goes through you, giving you warm hands, etc. It's all about the personal/subjective experience, like what it tke to be convinced of any "religion" (I prefer spiritual reality).
 
Put roughly and briefly, here is what I believe:

There is a set of conditions of possibility for existence, logically and causally prior to the division between existence and non-existence itself, in fact prior to the division between separation and unification, and even prior to the division between something and nothing (and even the notion of logical and causal priority and subordination). Thus, it is ineffable and unintelligible. It may be roughly described as an indeterminate flux out of which definite phenomena emerge. It is in some sense 'nothing', as it is prior to existent phenomena. Yet it shapes the character of all phenomena that do exist.

Does this sound like God to you? Does this sound like the belief system of an atheist to you?

ebola
 
^sorry sunshine, but I'm afraid you have a bad case of theism.
 
I hold a similar position as ebola, although I still extend it a bit...

for me even the dualism between
* infinity (absolute justice, goodness, beauty, truth) vs. finitude (injustice, evil, uglyness, untruth)
* absolute perfection vs. imperfect world
* our spark of divinity vs. our lower animal nature
* eternal vs. temporal; transcendence vs. immanence, One vs. Many; Being vs. Becoming
* ...

are mediated by the LOGOS, which makes all mediation and COSMIC EXPERIENCE of such duality possible. This LOGOS is therefore "metaphysically higher" than God.
(ohoh, don't shoot me dear empiricists) and God is therore not even the first cause or creator of the universe (=theism). This LOGOS is "more absolute than God" in the sense that it makes possible the relation between a finite creature and its Desire for infinity in the first place.
 
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