Anti-smoking battle moves outdoors; bans increase

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First it was bars, restaurants and office buildings. Now the front lines of the ‘‘No Smoking’’ battle have moved outdoors.

City parks, public beaches, college campuses and other outdoor venues across the country are putting up signs telling smokers they can’t light up. Outdoor smoking bans have nearly doubled in the last five years, with the tally now at nearly 2,600 and more are in the works.

But some experts question the main rationale for the bans, saying there’s not good medical evidence that cigarette smoke outdoors can harm the health of children and other passers-by.

Whether it is a long-term health issue for a lot of people ‘‘is still up in the air,’’ said Neil Klepeis, a Stanford University researcher whose work is cited by advocates of outdoor bans.

Ronald Bayer, a Columbia University professor, put it in even starker terms.

‘‘The evidence of a risk to people in open-air settings is flimsy,’’ he said.

There are hundreds of studies linking indoor secondhand smoke to health problems like heart disease. That research has bolstered city laws and workplace rules that now impose smoking bans in nearly half of the nation’s bars, restaurants and workplaces.

In contrast, there’s been little study of the potential dangers of whiffing secondhand smoke while in the open air. But that hasn’t stopped outdoor bans from taking off in the last five years. The rules can apply to playgrounds, zoos, beaches and ball fields, as well as outdoor dining patios, bus stops and building doorways.

‘‘Secondhand smoke is harmful. It’s particularly harmful to children,’’ said Councilwoman Mary Cheh of the District of Columbia, one of more than 90 U.S. municipalities or counties considering an outdoor smoking law.

But is it really dangerous outdoors?

Federal health officials say yes. Studies have clearly established that even a brief exposure indoors to cigarette smoke can cause blood to become sticky and more prone to clotting. How long that lasts after just one dose isn’t clear, officials say. The best-known studies so far have measured only up to about a day afterward.

Repeated exposures are more dangerous, and can worsen your cholesterol, increase the odds of plaque building in arteries, and raise the risk of chest pain, weakness, or heart attack.

Health officials say there’s no reason to think that can’t happen from breathing in smoke outdoors.

‘‘There’s no risk-free level of secondhand smoke,’’ said Brian King, an expert on secondhand smoke with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

However, it’s hard to pin down the health effects of outdoor smoke. There have been some studies — fewer than a dozen — that tried to measure how much secondhand smoke can be found outdoors. Some have found levels that rival what people may breathe indoors, depending on which way the wind is blowing or whether there’s an overhang or sheltered area that can trap smoke. One study detected significant fumes as far as 44 feet away from a smoker.

‘‘If you can smell it, it’s obviously there,’’ said James Repace, a Maryland-based scientist-consultant who’s done some of the outdoor studies.

Two small studies tested about two dozen nonsmokers at a smoky outdoor dining area in Athens, Ga. The saliva tests detected significant jumps in cotinine, a substance produced when the body metabolizes nicotine.

That doesn’t mean it’s causing chronic illness, though. Repace thinks only two kinds of people may face a serious health risk outdoors — those with severe asthma and staff at outdoor cafes where smoking is allowed.

Indeed, health advocates in some places have focused on sites like sidewalk cafes, feeling they can’t make the case for beaches or open-air parks.

‘‘We only get involved where there’s a real health risk,’’ said Flory Doucas, co-director of Canada’s Quebec Coalition for Tobacco Control.

Still, cigarette smoke in a place like a park can be a nuisance to some, just like loud music or dog waste.

That’s how Roger Montiel of Atlanta views it.

‘‘I don’t really like the smell and I don’t like it blowing in my face. If I'm enjoying a day at the park, I'd rather it not be part of that experience,’’ he said while walking through a downtown park recently.

That’s good enough reason for outdoor bans, Repace said. ‘‘People don’t have to be dropping dead for you to regulate something,’’ he said.

Well, not so fast, said Simon Chapman, an Australian researcher. He once won a prestigious American Cancer Society award for his anti-smoking efforts and formerly was editor of a medical journal focused on smoking’s dangers. But in recent years he’s become a vocal opponent to wide-ranging outdoor smoking bans.

cont at
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/hea...ns-increase/n7ErCvfLL3Q0DavbNDVyWK/story.html
 
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/2013/08/08/anti-smoking-battle-moves-outdoors-bans-increase/n7ErCvfLL3Q0DavbNDVyWK/story.html said:
‘‘I don’t really like the smell and I don’t like it blowing in my face. If I'm enjoying a day at the park, I'd rather it not be part of that experience,’’ he said while walking through a downtown park recently.

What is a wisp in the breeze, compared to the baking fumes of freshly laid asphalt? Or exhaust fumes while stuck in traffic? How is grandpa smoking on the bench worse than that?
 
Holy shit. Can we please elect the Marlboro Man president next year? This shits getting ridiculous.
 
He and Bayer worry such bans are really motivated by desires to make smoking seem like an unusual, socially unacceptable behavior. Ban proponents see that as a worthy goal; Chapman thinks it’s a bad precedent.

‘‘Next you might say ‘Let’s not just stop there. Let’s not have people smoke anywhere they might be seen'’’ he said. ‘‘And then is it legitimate to say that any behavior that people don’t like should be disapproved of because people might see it.’’

Looks like we'll all be homogenous automatons with shaven heads and wearing white jumpsuits in no time.

Beside the sinister social engineering aspects, the fucking hypocrisy of banning a few thousand cigarettes whilst allowing millions of tons of fossil fuel exhaust is ridiculous.
 
whilst allowing millions of tons of fossil fuel exhaust

This isn't entirely related to the article, but I just calculated that the column of air above my head weighs about a thousand kilograms.* How is it that I am not immediately crushed?

(*Atmospheric pressure is about 100,000 Newtons per square meter. My area is about a tenth of a meter, so the column of air above me weighs 10,000 newtons, or 1,000 kg)
 
All in good time. The world is changing. Peanuts are no longer allowed in the lunch room. People can be allergic to fragrances, like me, and a small amount of cigarette smoke can evoke reactions in some, like fragrance. Fuel pollution is something that is more unavoidable. Ban cigarettes you get grumpy people. Big effing deal deal with it. Ban cars (or burning of fossil fuels)... Anytime in the next 90 or so years? I'm laughing. Maybe less but the point is we can live without cigarettes and perfume... not the trucks that bring it (and other stuff) to us. We change what we can when we can.

Sooner or later we will all be wearing second skins that act as extra livers etc, and we will be able to self administer through this "organ" a variety of drugs. DMT with a thought. Nicotine with a thought. Pot with a thought. Something like this. The world has to change. Its always on its way. Some things have to happen first.
 
Why? What if it was ethically produced?

But... I am a bit annoyed at all the McDolads bags and wrappers I see on the road. I drive about 400 miles a day on certain days... It is always... Always McDonalds. Never BK... never Subway... Never Arbys. Thought of making a thread about it to discuss, but didn't know what angle or angles to go with.
 
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This isn't entirely related to the article, but I just calculated that the column of air above my head weighs about a thousand kilograms.* How is it that I am not immediately crushed?

(*Atmospheric pressure is about 100,000 Newtons per square meter. My area is about a tenth of a meter, so the column of air above me weighs 10,000 newtons, or 1,000 kg)

Do you really not know why you are not crushed? Physics->Chemistry->Chemical bonding. Also, our skeleto-muscular system (with CNS/PNS) keep us from being crushed. Compare the amount of vertical to lateral force many bones can take before breaking. If you get a big enough water column over your head you would be crushed. A big hydraulic piston would crush you pretty much immediately.

Proprietors should be able to decide what sort of smoking is allowed on their property (within environmentally acceptable levels). I am getting really tired of people trying to make things illegal for everyone because they simply, "don't like it". Show that something is really harming others then attempt to reduce said harm, if the harm cannot be reduced only then consider a penalty for the offence.

I am all for taxing smoked/inhaled products in order to compensate on average medical cost increases associated with the most common complications which stand directly connected with smoking/inhaling said product, but that is another thought.

In an ideal scenario the worldwide cigarette production as it is should be converted and started anew with cigarettes being produced without all the crazy chemicals the huge cig. companies use. There was a study a couple years back showing normal US and Australian cigarettes having 2x the amount of carcinogenic substances as Canadian and European (which still have quite a few additives, and can be bought stronger).
 
^Yeah, but your breathing is sucking up the oxygen I need to keep my tobacco burning, so quit it. ;) (and if people threw out needles like they did cigarette butts, which they would/do, that'd be a health hazard).

I am all for taxing smoked/inhaled products in order to compensate on average medical cost increases associated with the most common complications which stand directly connected with smoking/inhaling said product, but that is another thought.

We're already taxed up the wazoo.


And this shit isn't even about health, it's about giving people something to feel self-righteous over, and trying to stigmatize/shame people into quitting tobacco use.
 
^Yeah, but your breathing is sucking up the oxygen I need to keep my tobacco burning, so quit it. ;) (and if people threw out needles like they did cigarette butts, which they would/do, that'd be a health hazard).



We're already taxed up the wazoo.


And this shit isn't even about health, it's about giving people something to feel self-righteous over, and trying to stigmatize/shame people into quitting tobacco use.

That could very well be. In some areas it is probably overtaxed, and in some too little.

From my perspective the main harm smoking usually has (as complications from smoking often take a while before presently themselves) is a fairly large burden on the healthcare system having to deal with many multimorbid patients, and family members associated. You can financially compensate the treating hospital through taxing smokers who will also for the most part also develop complications associated with smoking and need treatment. I don't think higher prices on cigarettes are a bad thing, but I think the product should also be high quality and free of cancerous additives. Even then nicotine is quite bad for the vascular system.
 
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Tobacco use as it is commonly used is disgusting. I'm fine with people actually enjoying their tobacco like people enjoy weed. I wouldn't smoke weed where children are present, and or people who don't smoke are present. I feel wrong lighting up right next to non smoking people especially if there is any chance they are having to breath it.

Even as a smoker of cigs, other smokers who smoked even outdoors around or in areas where non smokers and children were downstream pissed me off. I smoked 10 years and could never shake the feeling of guilt for making another inhale unnecessarily. The fact is, it is totally unnecessary, has absolutely no benefit to your health, and the tolerance people have to it makes it useless as a recreational substance mostly... and its mass produced in a corrupt industry that destroys the environment even further with its mass use of pesticides.

Fucking overgrown babies. Just quit. Or smoke one rolled yourself organic one a day, or make a thing of it at least when you do. Respect the process. You are basically eating nasty candy and fast good 20 times a day. Not really, but you aren't slapping down some pasture raised Angus on the grill... and enjoying it.

I believe it is more awareness that needs to be instilled.
 
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^In my country, where 1/3 of people are obese, singling out the effects of tobacco on the healthcare system is ridiculous, oh and they charge me more for healthcare as it is as a smoker. Not to mention that high sin taxes come with their own issues.

But really the outdoor thing just pisses me off. I remember when I lived back East, in below freezing weather, in snow, sleet, or rain, huddling outside the entrances of buildings where awnings might provide a lil' protection from the weather to smoke, and then you go back in and hear people bitching about having to smell tobacco when they walk inside. I mean, who's suffering in that situation, really?

Anyway, the county parks around here are no smoking (not that it stops people), but the city ones allow it. Local uni did a smoking ban the other year, but there are a bajillion Chinese exchange students there and they all smoke, so it ends up getting ignored half the time.
 
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I imagine that is how it is going to be most of the time. It's not something that they can easily enforce with the amount of people that do it, and how it has been so open in our culture(s) for so many years.

I have a different perspective on this stuff, too, because after I quit smoking I realized I had, or developed chemical sensitivities, mainly to fragrance/odor. I wish perfume was banned. I wish scented lotions were banned. Candles. Anything that disperses itself through the air, to be smelled, to end up in my nose, to be smelled, I feel assaulted by it. It doesn't help that any more I can become physically ill because of it. It began with simple pain somewhere, or irritation, or headache. Now I can become nauseous. My tongue burns. Feels like it has sores on it. Yea, I am sick, but I'm reacting to actual toxins, not just good old chemicals. And fuck... You women, and your lotioned hands, on the fucking bank machine, on the fucking door handle, on the gas pump, now on my fucking hands now causing a fucking migraine... God. Ban that shit. Seriously. It's chemical assault, and I didn't ask for it to be on me, in my nose, in my shit.

Yea, we all live together and yea, farts don't smell great sometimes, but farts aren't nearly as offensive as this stuff, and farts... are... unavoidable. You need to pass gas. You need to emit body odors as a natural part of your processing. You DON'T need these extra gasses. Minimize. Zen.

More people are becoming sensitized to their environment, and more and more reasons will pop up to ban this stuff out in the open air. Peoples' disgust with smokers/smoke smell is perfectly understandable, and I think it's needed. They/this behavior needs to be rejected. More people are coming into the earth, and they need to realize it's not all their space, to spread out. They need to minimize disturbance. It's kind of like loud music ordinances. Scents are loud. You can't escape them, a lot of times, especially in work places, apartment buildings, and any other closed in place.

The smell of cigarettes can make some people sick. My main issue is scents that are designed to smell. It's a challenge to turn this around on everything, on my beloved weed... But even it- some people get sick to smell. I know we can't make everyone happy, but we do need to change, and learn to be accommodating, to ourselves.. to our children, and future children. But, people are quite stubborn, and set in their ways, trying to justify themselves in their world. They never really let go of pacifiers. Even the shepherd has his walking stick, though he probably doesn't really need it... but at least he keeps his stick to himself, and it's not really in the way.

Can not smokers vaporize their tobacco? I find nothing wrong with this. Vaporizers should be allowed (unless there's something I'm not thinking). There's extremely minimal/no smell that comes off of those, am I right? Or it disappears really fast. They don't need to give up their habit. Just adjust. Accommodate. Then hell, they can do it in the bathroom again. Indoors. I know, not the same, but neither is a whopper from tracking and taking down an elk, and doing all that awesome stuff that I have no idea about because I'm a spoon fed cage man.
 
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Why? What if it was ethically produced?

But... I am a bit annoyed at all the McDolads bags and wrappers I see on the road. I drive about 400 miles a day on certain days... It is always... Always McDonalds. Never BK... never Subway... Never Arbys. Thought of making a thread about it to discuss, but didn't know what angle or angles to go with.

lol i thought i was the only one that noticed theres a fucking a&w across from the mall i work at so you think id see more of their wrappers in the parking lot. but nope 7 or more times out of 10 its always mc dicks wrappers littering the parking lot. ditto for the rest of the city. lol just a joke but maybe after eating food from mc dicks your brain chemistry is altered so that for a short time you turn into a thoughtless asshole that litters with wreckless abandon. in all seriousness though i guess mc donalds is the most popular fast food joint and all who say they hate mc donalds are bullshitters the fact that those god forsaken restaurants are every where might also contribute
 
I have a different perspective on this stuff, too, because after I quit smoking I realized I had, or developed chemical sensitivities, mainly to fragrance/odor. I wish perfume was banned. I wish scented lotions were banned. Candles. Anything that disperses itself through the air, to be smelled, to end up in my nose, to be smelled, I feel assaulted by it. It doesn't help that any more I can become physically ill because of it. It began with simple pain somewhere, or irritation, or headache. Now I can become nauseous. My tongue burns. Feels like it has sores on it. Yea, I am sick, but I'm reacting to actual toxins, not just good old chemicals. And fuck... You women, and your lotioned hands, on the fucking bank machine, on the fucking door handle, on the gas pump, now on my fucking hands now causing a fucking migraine... God. Ban that shit. Seriously. It's chemical assault, and I didn't ask for it to be on me, in my nose, in my shit.

You do not have a right to not be a offended. Society is offended by the fact that people choose to use exogenous means to alter their consciousness in their own homes, and legally persecute the offenders for it, but I doubt you approve of that, being here? Or more apropos, swearing is offensive to many, should we fine folks for doing so? Or maybe we should be like the french and should outlaw the Burka, since that offends much of Christendom.

If we're going to differentiate tobacco, it must be for health reasons, and the only empirical data for outdoor passive smoking (i.e. second hand smoke) I've read indicates that you'd have to be such close proximity to smokers for such a long amount of time that only waiters/waitresses could possibly be affected. In which case a restaurant ban makes sense rather than schoolwide, or parkwide, or beachwide ban. If we want to merely be accommodating to other persons in public spaces, smoking/nonsmoking sections should do fine.
 
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