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Anti-Narcissism

Madness said:
"How do you justify killing?"

"We do what needs to be done"

"Does it make you feel bad?"

"Bad how? No mostly just hungry."
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Factual brother. I feel like Psychos and sociopaths make bad cops. Always on the line to kill the suspect no matter what, they get to be known in the precinct as the "that guy" imo.

But as we all knows police were first started to straighten out slaves on the run and millionaires own private army so yeah... time is a circle my nikka
 
Frog Dreams said:
Telling people they will never change helps convince them to stay the same.
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Right.

Sort of like guilt tripping an addict.

Or more subtly, pointing fingers at someone as opposed to providing an alternative view which may make them recoil and further identify with their defensive stance.

No one is undeserving of love.

This is delicate though, because boundaries and rules still apply to everyone.

No one is special.
 
Madness said:
Yeah I mean we shouldn't "go easy" on such people or not take their wrongdoings seriously, I just don't think anyone is necessary a lost cause.

Possibly becoming nearly untreatable, but not a lost cause for their entire existence.
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Right. Glad someone else feels this way.

I did a lot of extremely antisocial things myself, especially when I was younger. Vandalism, destruction, fires, violence, manipulation, abuse of people and yes sadly animals, all of that shit. Intrusive thoughts have won out occasionally and it takes a lot of work to develop a better understanding and move forward, but I can't really consider myself a lost cause, or else I will truly just embody that and end up going even further in a destructive direction.

Redemption is a beautiful thing and I believe everyone is capable of it, even most of the worst cases we see.
 
Frog Dreams said:
This has been lingering in my brain for years.

It seems like society only approves of hatred towards a handful of mental illnesses: narcissism / sociopathy / psycopathy.

People openly (socially) criticize narcissists. They also diagnose them.

(It tends to mostly be women calling men narcissists. This is weird because women tend to be much more narcissistic than men, IMO, but YMMV... and that is entirely besides the point of this thread anyway.)

What I don't understand is: why the hatred?

It's not like severely autistic people are pleasant to be around. I'd much rather hang out with a narcissist.

Bi-polar people can be really difficult too, but I've never heard anyone criticize people for being bi-polar.

Why are there certain labels we are not sympathetic towards?
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Essentialism vs constructivism would probably encapsulate most people's thoughts or feelings on the issue, whether they're aware of what that means and how it affects their thinking (or not).

In a non-abstract sense, the traits you mention - in those that express them, clinically - are largely perceived to have negative impacts on those who live around them, work with them, or are under their control, regardless of whether they are a choice or whether those people can control their more negative behaviors. If you aren't being an arse though, you won't tend to get diagnosed with a condition, hence this is essentially meaningless.

Autism, bi-polar and all the other labels one might mention, on the other hand, tend to be far more nuanced and ambiguous and can have very varied impacts on those around them. A grumpy person may often be unpleasant to be around, for instance, but that doesn't mean their net effect on those around them is actually negative.
 
I've only seen psychiatrists/psychologists a couple of times in my life. I don't think I've ever done a second session with a psychologist, so I've never had a formal diagnosis of anything... but they all suggested different disorders.

One of them was overt narcissism.

At the time, I was a completely broken person. Massively depressed. Suicidal. Riddled with self-loathing. Doing a shitload of drugs. My head was a fucking mess. I was also a nightmare to be around.

It was the worst period of my life... So much so, that it took me nearly a decade to get over the shame of who I was during that period.

This was all triggered by a massive trauma.

Perhaps I was a narcissist back then? I don't know. But, looking back, I can definitely understand why he (the shrink) said that.

I presented on the outside like that, but on the inside I was in an enormous amount of pain.

Back then, I didn't think I'd ever get better. Society taught me there are lines you just do not cross... and if you do, God forbid, you become inhuman.

The worst thing, I think, was my parents distancing themselves from me and loving me less. They gave up hope, which destroyed what little remained of mine.

Thankfully, I'm 90+% out of the woods now. But, I still have a bit of work to do.

I don't believe narcissism (or depression / anxiety) are permanent conditions.

I'm not convinced any mental illnesses / "personality disorders" are permanent conditions.

We still don't know much about how the brain works.

...

There are a lot of things being stated as facts about narcissists in this thread.

(how they think; the likelihood of recovery; etc.)

Yet, nobody has had any experience with anyone with a formal diagnosis.

I am the closest you've come, probably.

Am I a narcissist?

...

I don't think the justice system effectively rehabilitates people and I generally don't think it's helpful to treat any person as a non-person.

Positive change (if it comes at all) more often comes from love and compassion.

CFC said:
their net effect on those around them is actually negative
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Does this only apply to narcissists?

Super depressed people are pretty depressing to be around, which makes people not want to spend time with them... which makes them more depressed.

Being around people who are super anxious all the time is also draining.
 
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The way I took that snippet from CFC is that in order to be clinically diagnosed one needs to be deemed problematic enough. However anyone at all can cause stain on others I hear that.

@Frog Dreams if you are so curious to know, I believe you've asked several times, the staff of a group home I lived in informed me a housemate had narcissistic personality disorder. It must have made her feel better to say that to me. Personally my view of him didn't change, if anything it made me more empathetic. Very pleasant guy, bummed me cigs, gave me a jacket, didn't make me uncomfortable, asked for nothing in return. One night he woke me up to make burgers at like 2am, and one of the house staff threw a fit. He started raging right back, times 5, off the richter scale, then calmly sat down to enjoy his burger while staff was still chirping in his ear and threatening him. I'm like, okay I mean I respect it. Dudes hungry and staff hides the good food.

Anyway, I guess the thing on my mind now is how the term has become a blanket term and some seemingly demonize this trait that we all have but for some is exasperated.
 
I have bipolar disorder, I can confirm people hate bipolar people don't worry! I completely understand it, but its not like I want to have bipolar disorder, unlike personality disorders, where those people like being who they are, I mean during a manic episode I decided to meet sociopaths and narcissists on discord and met people that were bragging about being pedophiles and left, usually when I meet sociopaths I run into someone bragging about being a pedophile, and with narcissists they're just there to make you feel like shit. When I decide to meet other people with bipolar/schizoaffective disorder (I was diagnosed with both) I just meet people that are struggling to get along rather than pedophiles that seek to harm others.
 
We know that personality disorders tend to run in families, but there is debate over whether it's nature vs nurture. Twin studies on personality disorders show a high level of heritability, but we still don't know for sure if that heritability is genetic or learned. The twin studies don't reveal this because the twins are almost never separated into different families, they both grow up in the same family. If the twins were separated and still developed personality disorders, then that would be proof of genetics.

We do know that the majority of the time, someone with a personality disorder had a parent with a personality disorder, i.e. narcissists tend to have at least one parent who is also a narcissist. However, you also read cases where a child's non-narc biological parent was absent and another narcissistic caregiver took care of them (like a narc babysitter while the parent worked all the time) and the kid developed narc traits.

You can also have narc parents and the child does not grow up to be a narc whatsoever, even though they were the victim of narcissistic abuse their whole lives. So in children who grow up to be messed up somehow from narc abuse, they either develop narc traits themselves or they are just normal people with PTSD.

Analyzing the inverse is also interesting. When neither parent is a narc and those parents were actively involved in raising their kid, the kid almost never becomes a narc. So what does that say about the genetic argument?

I really think it's a learned behaviour. Most of the psychology research bears that out too. However, there is obviously a genetic component in some cases. A lot of narcs also suffer from addiction (this has been true for the ones I've known), so there is a neurochemical component related to reward. I think you still need the learned reinforcement to make it full blown though. And because most narcs had a narc parent who reinforced the behaviour, they are more likely to be full blown if they have any hint of genetic anything.
 
Frog Dreams said:
Does this only apply to narcissists?

Super depressed people are pretty depressing to be around, which makes people not want to spend time with them... which makes them more depressed.

Being around people who are super anxious all the time is also draining.
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Of course it doesn't ;)

You can measure people by their actual output, it's often the easiest way to deal with our fellow humans (non-discrimination). But that's not really what you asked, even though it's perhaps the discussion you had hoped would unfurl?

People like to pigeonhole by categories for easy management. Shorthand for dummies, you might say. Or perhaps shorthand for those who struggle to identify insincerity, disingenuousness or the machinations of machiavellian types due to their own mental blindness or mental circuitry. Some toxic people, after all, can be indistinguishable from the nicest, most genuine and thoughtful types until something happens. And then all hell breaks loose, and you'd wish you'd been aware of their true nature all along, to enable you to better prepare and behave in a more measured fashion the whole time.

Depressed or anxious people, on the other hand, are often very predictable and consistent in their depressiveness and anxiety. There's little falsity behind their behavior. For sure, it doesn't make being around them necessarily pleasant, depending on the person. But you're less likely to be hit with some totally blindsiding behavior down the line which completely ruins everything you'd been banking on.

I suspect it's that element of betrayal (and ultimately the insincerity that produces it) that underlies much of the grinding hostility many have towards the more toxic NPDs. It's a way for some to cope and set boundaries in advance in anticipation of negative things to come.
 
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