AmErICanS

[xtcxtc]

mr sticky -- i very rarely disagree with you but in order to promote some disagreement instead of plur i am following in johnboy's footsteps.
vietvet quoted " if you aren't programming yourself, someone else is ".
of course we are all brainwashed to some extent self incl. i have not lived in my home country for > 20 years and hence have been
exposed to american view of the world even more so than before ( not inconsiderable even living in aus ).
like you i could not envisage myself using a gun on someone else --- unless they were shooting at me already.
your quote below seems very extreme -- many other western countries are much happier with guns of all sorts largely being in the hands of the authorities only.
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on the otherhand, I don't want the US police and armed forces to be the only Americans with guns...that idea scares the screamin' Jesus outta me. I don't want easily manipulated or bribed authority figures to hold that kind of a trump card over us ... that's a recipe for disaster.
---------------------------------------------
recipe for disaster -- uummmm?
can you quote historical precedent or example from elsewhere in the world?
given your views on many other subjects the above quote stuns me -- i cannot begin to follow the logic.
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in individuals, insanity is rare: but in groups,parties, nations and epochs (+stock market bubbles) it is the rule.
friedrich nietzsche.

 

[liquidocean]

"Eeeet looks like a case of Canada Complex"

[This message has been edited by liquidocean (edited 30 May 2000).]

 

[johnboy]

lol... sometimes a canada is just a canada tho...

 

[Mr. Sticky]

First and foremost as a parallel, I thought that Swiss men were pressed into 2 years of service into the Swiss armed forces, then given their gun as a parting gift and sent home, effectively arming the entire population. Of course I heard this from a sketchy source and I don't feel like looking it up now, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong and we'll leave it at that.
I'm not taking into consideration past precendents in other countries, because as we all know, American culture takes few cues from any other past cultures (except maybe the excesses of ancient Rome), we being so "putrid" (to paraphrase johnboy), and we're inherently violent anyway; hey folks, that includes the authority figures, not just the public.
You obviously don't understand the concept of "might makes right." Well that's how American government works.
I think de-arming American citizens would be a very bad thing for this country's freedom, and then could be quite a bad thing for the world at large. The only thing that's kept the US government in check over the last half century? The will of an armed American public. They've had to lie and manipulate us for a long time now to get even close to their way, but I doubt they'd even bother with that if they knew we didn't have a bite.
Besides, the average American citizen doesn't kill many foreigners (except for Germans around Jax, Fl

), so why are you worried? If I were you, I'd be worried about armed American GI's with high explosives and night vision goggles, not the crack dealer on the corner of a Detroit street with a 9 millimeter and no transportation.

Okay, let's take a different look at this: For all those that care, raise your hand if you thought JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald alone. Okay, all you who raised your hands, get out of the discussion because you're fooling yourselves. The assassination of JFK was at least partly government executed. At least they tried a cover-up back then, because otherwise they may have had to deal with an armed public backlash. Take all the guns away from the people, and the assassins would have walked up to him in the street, each wearing a big sign saying, "assassin," and shot him in full view of millions, danced a little celebratory jig and had a beer before vacating the crime scene.
Yes, the preceding paragraph is exagerrated, but it's exagerrated for effect.

The United States has a very warlike mentality...especially since the ass-woopin's we applied in WWII. Since then our entire concept of cultural survival revolved around combatting the Red Menace and prepping ourselves for the final showdown.
Shit, we shot 4 of our own children at Kent State University, the government FUCKING KILLED THEM, when all they were doing was peacefully protesting the Vietnam War back in the early 70's. Both Kennedy brothers--dead, MLK Jr--dead. Don't even try to tell me my government had no part in any of these, because I won't listen that line of shit. It has proven time and again that it will squash the unarmed peace lovers under the heel of its boot.
Does this sound like the actions of a sane and caring government? I don't think so. That sounds like the actions of a government that needs to be watched like a hawk. It sounds like a government in serious need of check and balances, and arming the population is one way of maintaining that tenuous balance.
But for xtcxtc alone, I assume you understand the politics of Hong Kong (that is your home, no?) better than I (as well as Filipino prostitutes

), but you should assume that I understand the general climate of my homeland more than you could...I've lived here for 27 years and am quite aware of how things work.
However as I said, this issue is still a toss-up for me. I can't come to any decent conclusions about it as of yet. I've only told you my fears, and you adamantly rejected them as illogical. I just don't happen to agree with you. "Case closed."

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This is one of those times I have nothing to say.
[This message has been edited by Mr. Sticky (edited 30 May 2000).]

 

[Mr. Sticky]

Thanks liquid...I was starting to get too serious.
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This is one of those times I have nothing to say.

 

[Zero]

As you say, sticky, you have lived there for 27 years, you have stood up every day for twelve years in class and sung the national anthem. You are berated everyday by the media telling of yet another American sporting/scientific/moral victory/worldfirst/championship. You have eaten maccas and watched a big-budget movie about Ancient Rome or Medieval England where every charachter has an American accent.
You are PART of the sytem. The American Culture breeds a demeanor of condescending self-importance.
You have lived there for 27 years, you should be the LAST person to talk to about America.
You are convinced that JFK was assainated by the CIA, you are convinced that aliens landed at Roswell, and probably a dozen other conspiracies. Who fucking cares!
What YOU have to wonder is what the government is up to when you are watching X-files, polishing you Glock 9mm.
"Arm the population! Arm the Population!"
Goddamn, Listen up
Australians have no guns. We have a far more intense level of cultural diversity. We have a shitload of asians, meditteranians, and Europeans, all living in Australia in cultural enclaves. Yes we have violence, but having no guns, we have a minimal murder rate.
The US government isnt out to get you, you tool, it just wants you to shut up, eat maccas, watch Godzilla and keep polishing that Glock.
Zero

 

[xtcxtc]

sticky -- you bought a big smile to my face but i did not mention prostitutes originally so let's exclude just that one word, huh.
not much politics going on in hk except the occasional bleating when china interferes with high court decisions. basically british law still rules or they would have turfed me out.
thru local papers or IHT or time or cnn or cnbc or monica i would have read much, much more about american politics than any other country over the last 20+ years.
damn, man, when do you ever sleep or do any work -- p'raps like me you have a second computer at your side so you can kid yourself you are working whilst surfing bluelight.

 

[ka0pahD]

cant we all just get along and pick on the canadians. south park already started it lets continue it! haha
no, but really guys..
you arent even talking about E anymore. your just arguing about history and politics and society and yadda yadda ya
sure, the american rave scene is 10 years behind the rest of the world. sure, tHeY tYpE lIkE dIs n ShIt (sUm of Us!) but those are they lame 12 year olds who want to be cool. when you get down to it, we're all the same people. we are one. the universe is one. the young lad in somalia is my brother, and the grandma in germany my sister. yes.
NOW.
stop this thread dammit
and talk about dropping or something shit!

 

[Mr. Sticky]

Zero, you know normally I would try to bridge the gap between us, but you've attacked me and made some seriously erroneous assumptions about me and did it all with a righteous level of the condescending self-importance that you attribute to me and my kind. My response? Go fuck yourself.
I have made no generalizations about your culture, why do you feel the need to belittle mine? All the while you assume I possess all the negative traits of a "typical" American. That's a classic response to feeling inferior...belittle those around you to uplift you and yours. Yeah, make assumptions so you aren't forced to think. That's very American of you.

As you say, sticky, you have lived there for 27 years, you have stood up every day for twelve years in class and sung the national anthem.

Nope, I never sang it in school (if that's what you're referring to); and I said the Pledge of Allegiance only as a kindergartener. I'm hardly the typical god-fearing, gun-toting, patriotic redneck you assume me to be.

You are berated everyday by the media telling of yet another American sporting/scientific/moral victory/worldfirst/championship. You have eaten maccas and watched a big-budget movie about Ancient Rome or Medieval England where every charachter has an American accent.

What the hell are maccas? And yes, I've seen movies that take place in other countries but star American actors. But often times the American actors just butcher the local accent/dialect. I've also seen Mel Gibson in his truncated rendition of Hamlet attempting an English accent. I've seen Yahoo Serious butcher an entire film and a chunk of history in one fell swoop, so what's your point, you pious prick?

You are PART of the sytem. The American Culture breeds a demeanor of condescending self-importance.

Apparently so does Aussie culture or at least your family's culture, given your response. You feel you've got us all figured out, but it only takes a small mind to think such things. Yes, I think I am intelligent, but I don't think that I'm brilliant. Yes, I'm self-important. Anybody who responds to anything on a BBS has some amount of self-importance. Do I think I'm better than other people? No I'm not better than people of other ethnic backgrounds or other countries. Yet you apparently think you are better than all other Americans while spewing your anti-American rhetoric about our "condescending self-importance." Do you understand irony, Zero? Try looking it up in the dictionary. <===and by the way, that was just condescension...no self-importance necessary.

You have lived there for 27 years, you should be the LAST person to talk to about America.

I think I understand the point you are trying to make...a little bit of detachment is necessary to pinpoint a problem...much like a psychologist needs to remain detached. But you must also realize that what you know about America is filtered through the media before it ever reaches your eyes. I see some of this shit everyday first-hand. I think that gives me an insight into the inner workings of my culture you could never possibly understand. And if you talked to any of my friends and especially my girlfriend (bless her for putting up with me), you would find that I'm quite a detached person...much more than the average individual.

You are convinced that JFK was assainated by the CIA, you are convinced that aliens landed at Roswell, and probably a dozen other conspiracies. Who fucking cares!

I said nothing about aliens and Roswell. Please stop making shit up to further ridicule me. Ask johnboy, there are many better ways of ridiculing me by using my own statements against me. Try putting that chunk of fatty tissue you call a brain to work and you'll find that exaggerating your point in that fashion only serves to discredit your whole argument.
And since you apparently couldn't pick this up in my previous post, I was attempting to state that elements of US government are willing to use guns against political figures and citizens...I think it would be insane to assume they wouldn't abuse this even more once the American population was disarmed. I'm not trying to force you to listen to my theories of conspiracy (I don't give a shit if you know or don't know my opinions about such things), I was attempting to utilize this as an example of my government's violent tendencies. Try not to read so hard next time...it might be putting a strain on your poor little brain.

What YOU have to wonder is what the government is up to when you are watching X-files, polishing you Glock 9mm.

Sure, I sometimes watch the X-Files...for entertainment, not education. Do you do anything for entertainment alone? Of course not...you're Zero, everything in your little world has relevance beyond just entertainment.
And I personally don't like guns. I have never shot a gun unless it was at a paper target (when I was a kid). I don't own a gun. I will probably never own a gun, and I don't support the NRA. Yet I think it would be a bad idea to completely disarm the United States populace. Hmmm...let's take a look at the detachment of that viewpoint. I think I've got a pretty good fucking perspective on it, since I'm not blinding myself with my personal view about guns. That's the same perspective as someone who doesn't approve of abortion still supporting someone else's right to choose. That's a mature response. That's a response that has come through quite a bit of reflection. It's not a knee-jerk response.

"Arm the population! Arm the Population!" Goddamn, Listen up. Australians have no guns.

I thought johnboy said you have revolvers and bolt action guns. Who is correct?

We have a far more intense level of cultural diversity.

Really? I'd love to see your substantiation for this statement, because I really think you don't have a fucking clue. Can anybody out there substantiate this, because I would really like to know.

The US government isnt out to get you, you tool, it just wants you to shut up,

No, it doesn't want to shut me up unless I get too loud (the government really digs lots of inane mummerings and mindless prattle...it covers up their whispers). What it wants me to do is to consume, pay taxes, and be a cog in the machine. I'm pretty sure that's what your country expects of you as well, you "tool."

eat maccas, watch Godzilla and keep polishing that Glock.

Again with the maccas...and I saw Godzilla (at the prodding of some of my geeky friends) and thought it sucked. And as I said before, I don't own a gun. I polish my knob instead.
Well, Zero, kudos to you for extending a welcoming hand in this little conversation. I hope you perform better in your real life interactions than you do in this medium...you sorry fuck.
My apologies to johnboy for putting this in your forum. Although you occasionally rub me the wrong way, I always have a great amount of respect for you because you at least take the time to read, research, interpret, and formulate your own opinions. That is most deserving of anyone's respect.
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This is one of those times I have nothing to say.
[This message has been edited by Mr. Sticky (edited 30 May 2000).]

 

[pinger]

i ALWAYS love your posts Sticky!
guys, think for a moment how diplomatic sticky has been from the start, when he stepped into a thread essentially demeaning his culture and homeland.
we wouldn't like it is we stepped out into BL2000 and there was a big thread "Australians- convict bashing here" or more scandalously "Australian's can't drink beer".
I'd love to weigh in here with some of my views but I a at work and am afraid i wont do this thread justice, so- carry on!
good thread- keep it going in terms of rational debate!!!
pinger

 

[Mr. Sticky]

I let emotion get the better of me. So much for the "deatached" part of my argument.

Perhaps it isn't my place to say these things...I'm essentially a guest here. A very verbose and loud guest.
I'll leave my posts up here for further discussion, johnboy...but say the word and I'll delete them.
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This is one of those times I have nothing to say.
[This message has been edited by Mr. Sticky (edited 31 May 2000).]

 

[johnboy]

nah it can all stay. zero went off half-cocked but i, sure even he sees that... altho i gree with one or two of his points

one things for sure, i'll probably be standing next to him at the demos in september. melbourne is going to make seattle look like a love in

fuck glocal coporate slavery, thats my main problem with america as a society.
it all reminds me of something i read in the paper the other day about thr breton resistance. probably not many people know this but Brittany, a small part of northern France, has been waging a war of independance for many, many years. A few radicals there beleive the the Breton culture is so distinct from the rest of gaullic culture that they deserve recognition as a seperate state.
where am i going with this you ask? well for years the "terrorists" have only blown up a few bombs and have been infamous for only destroying symbolic targets, like statues and town clocks, and making sure no one gets hurt. that is until earlier this year...
the thrust of the Breton liberationists attacks have now changed. now their enemy is not France, it's the more global destroyer of their culture; American Corporate Imperialism.
a couple of months ago they announced this change of target by blowing up a MacDonalds (btw mr sticky, when zero said "Maccas" he ment the golden arches... geddit?). unfortunately they also blew up a 16 year old burger flipper who was closing up.
this bomb was made from some of the two tonnes of explosives that they hijacked with the help of ETA, the basque seperatists. see these guys arent being funny anymore, they are seriously pissed off about the the watering down of their culture...
i think we are going to be seeing a lot more of this. seattle was just a skirmish and more and more people like me a fed up enuf to push back...
here's something else i was reminded of today, something which gets the whole thread back on topic; americas hypocrisy with the drug war.
remember kosovo? remember all those KLA fighters with the brand new weapons and shiny uniforms? know where they got all there money?
smack
the KLA was a creation of the Albanian smugglers who for the last 30 years have controlled the flow of heroin into Europe via the Balkans. they buy turkish morph base and process it locally before selling it on. they coicidentally bought the base from bulgarian groups who also supplied them with arms in exchange for refined product.
serbian police began to make outrageous demands for kickbacks, the kosovas told them to get fucked, and voila! a civil war...
but noooo! america is out there "defending democracy"... yeah just like in Kuwait, the shining light of democracy in the arab world...
none of this is conspiracy theory, my main source for this info was Time magazine. one tiny little column in one issue at the height of the crisis... but it got my thinking and after very little research i put together the pieces. but did you ever see in reference to this on the mainstream news?
mr sticky: before i forget, australia is one of the most ethnically divers places in the world right now, just trust us on that, america was for years the number one destination for foreign immigrants, but now one hell of a lot of people from everywhere round the world are moving here, and because it is recent immigration it all seems so much more diverse. melbourne has always been an immigrant town. it has the largest greel population outside athens, and has an italian community as big as many Italian cities... and this was all before the immigration of the eighties and ninties which now see probably more vietnamese here than Hue and more somalians than... well somewhere anyway... dont take your picture of australia from the media, ours is just as distorted as yours, if not more so.
[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited 31 May 2000).]

 

[mona]

OK. I have kept away from this thread basically because this kind of tit for tat who's better than who shit absolutley disgusts me.
I'm at uni right now, so I dont have the time to read. But you can all be assured that as soon as I get home I'm going to read this thing through and have a stern word to say about it all.
Absolutely disgusting. (what I have read so far)

 

[johnboy]

um why are you taking it so seriously... *looks around* is anyone else taking this seriously?

 

[Bombadil]

Wow, johnboy, i mean, waow.
Peter Singer (Aussie ethics proffessor at some Ivy League university) wrote last year that Americans can be so preoccupied with rights, they confuse them with just, or good action.
Bluelighters in general have a better idea of this than most, we believe (I hope) that while drugs are often destructive, addictive, dangerous etc, we should have the RIGHT to make our own decisions.
Same goes for guns. Guns are simply evil devices, but to americans the freedom to own one is more important than safer society.
Esctacy is a potentially crippling drug, if we are not smart with its use. Same goes for other drugs, and alchohol, and driving, and many other things we do.
Think about this. Guns in Australia are not available. Gun deaths are minimal. Demand for illicit guns in Australia is very low, and so there is little criminal gain in gun trade. It makes sense to keep guns under control. (It may restrict our FREEDOM, but for the good of society..)
Guns in America are available. Guns and gun-related deaths are proliferous. In America guns are business, are in demand, create wealth. It does not make sense to ban guns in America, it would only serve to drive trade underground.
Drugs (including ecstacy) are banned in both countries. Drug abuse is common, but not nearly as common as drug use. Drug trade is illegal, and HUGE business. Dealers are outside the law, and often do not hesitate to participate in other illegal and antisocial actions to protect their interests.
Does it really make sense? Demand is high despite the legal risks?
The US government is a bully when it comes to drug laws. It threatens other countries with economic sanctions when alternitives to prohibition are proposed.
But the land of the free contridicts itself.
Maybe the hope from here is in the big corporations. With a huge marketing campaign and a little government leverage, pharmaceutical corporations could tap the massive market of ravers and clubbers for the benefit of all society! Think of the jobs created!
Look how those wonderful products Prozac and Viagra became household names overnight, without any of the stigma that is even beginning to mar 5-HTP.
Really, what sort of a catchy name is 5-HTP anyway. I'd have words with my marketing people...
All it takes is a lot of money and the will to profit! And the rest of us can live in eternal gratitude (I mean debt) for this extension of our freedom.
Think about it
I'll see you at Crown in September then..
Tom Bombadil

 

[johnboy]

someone asked me the other day why i enjoyed drug culture so much, not the taking of drugs but the whole lifestyle that goes around with it.
one thing that i realised is that i really enjoy the fact that drugs (illegal ones) are one of the few experiences in life that isn't cheapened or commodified by corporate culture. this theory isn't airtight and feel free to pick it apart but hear me out...
the clothes we wear are so tightly tied in with marketing culture its is almost impossible to but something and not participate in all that. even watching sport is these days so tied up with the allmighty advertising dollar it has stopped being a simple pleasure.
but somehow i take great delight in participating in an act that 60 minutes finds despicable and wrong. anything i can do to offend Ray Martin is a victory in my books.
discuss

on another note, back to gun culture, bombadil you said that australia doesnt have a great demand for drugs which has kept our crimerates down... what worries me is that e culture is getting huge and the demand is growing everyday... and is it just a coincidence with that guy getting shot outside Hard Kandy? somehow i doubt it was a disagreement over the Pies vs the Cat...
anyone else finding this discussion disgusting?

 

[Chill]

Mona Pinger.....This reminds of that NRA thread that got out of hand on the Old Bluelight Board between Brock , Mom and the likes..... That was about 1.5 years ago if I remember correctly ......
Still interesting just the same .
keep spinning it out people........
Chill
[This message has been edited by Chill (edited 31 May 2000).]

 

[BuckE]

"What do we have to feel proad about? Australia are a fucking embarresment. Think republic, think reconciliation, think of that tiny tiny little piss ant of a prime minister we have."
"John Howard is the most embarrising thing that has ever happened to Australia. No questions. Little twat head. Fuck I hate him!! *rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*"
I don't know if that post was tongue-in-cheek horsey, but goddamnit man don't you have any respect for your own country? "Australia is a fucking embarrassment?" What the hell's that? Are you serious? Do you not notice the many great things we have around us? A multicultural society. A relatively tolerant society (relatively).
All the arguments on this thread have been because people take immense pride with their nation and will argue to defend it or clarify statements. What I find most disturbing is not these arguments but your post, void of any kind of appreciate for the nation. to me, your post stuck out like a sore thumb.
whats a matter horsey, too much work, not enough serotonin, too many coffees?
cammon.
BuckE

 

[flip]

I think some of the differences between our two countries can be summed up in the fact that we had a prime minister(some one touched on this before) that held the world beer sculling record and was an atheist, this would never happen in the US 'in god we trust'A.
Bring back Gough, now there was a leader with a brain and a vision and what happened? the bloody americans (damn you CIA!) got rid of him.

 

[mona]

Still at fucking uni almost 12 hours after I got here...still havent read the thread properly...
johnboy - i take this seriously because it's a serious matter and you know as well as I do that there are serious issues behind it.