Am researchng for an essay on porn and am wondering how some stuff on pornohub is even legal????

[JessFR]

And I thought, SOMEONE needs to talk about it - someone who is not, for example, trying to convert people to Christianity or Mormonism (which seems to be the hidden agenda for the 2 most vocal anti-porn orgs online - Exodus Cry and Fight the New Drug).
I am not too "hip" to take my hat off to fundamentalist Christians or Mormons if they are involved with NO expectation of effecting conversions or enlarging their ranks.
To be frank, I am a Christian myself, but in a non-church going way ... I've read the Gospels and I see so much beauty and truth in them, whether or not they accurately reflect what Jesus may or
may not have said.
One thing He did allegedly say was that when trying to help people in distress, "never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing": ie, give your help, love or money with NO expectation of "thanks" or being seen as a "good person". A good deed is vitiated as soon as you say, "hey, I'm doing good deeds here!" and begin moralising and self - aggrandising and expecting your kickback.

Christianity needs more people who take Matthew 6 to heart (same with John 8:7).

Im not a Christian (I'm a spiritual agnostic with a slight inclination towards theism) , but unlike some other people I know, I don't hate religion or Christianity. I think a lot of good has been inspired by religion as well as bad. I just wish more Christians focused on Jesus message of love and helping rather than the so called Christians who do nothing but use the Bible to attack people.


What I'm saying is I'm impressed by your words.

 

[MrsGamp]

Christianity needs more people who take Matthew 6 to heart (same with John 8:7).

Im not a Christian (I'm a spiritual agnostic with a slight inclination towards theism) , but unlike some other people I know, I don't hate religion or Christianity. I think a lot of good has been inspired by religion as well as bad. I just wish more Christians focused on Jesus message of love and helping rather than the so called Christians who do nothing but use the Bible to attack people.


What I'm saying is I'm impressed by your words.

Thanks Jess

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Is the essay intended for publication, paid or otherwise?
Or is it personal?

If you'd like to post it here when it's done or PM it to me, I'm happy to give you some feedback. I'm curious how it turns out.

 

[somnilicious]

Exactly. And even where it's illegal it may only be illegal only for the customers (making it illegal for the prostitutes is immoral and deplorable).

And finally even if it's illegal that doesn't make it immoral.

Not saying that I disagree with it being immoral and deplorable to make it illegal for the prostitute but it just seems an odd sentiment to punish the customer and not the sex worker. Kinda like arresting the addict but giving the drug dealer a pass because it would be immoral to arrest them.

 

[JessFR]

Not saying that I disagree with it being immoral and deplorable to make it illegal for the prostitute but it just seems an odd sentiment to punish the customer and not the sex worker. Kinda like arresting the addict but giving the drug dealer a pass because it would be immoral to arrest them.

No, it's still like arresting the drug dealer but not the addict.

Addicts aren't exploiting drug dealers by buying from them.
Prostitutes aren't exploiting customers by serving them.

Any exploitation is happening the other way around, and assuming the dealer isn't also a user (which is a messy complication that is sadly quite common), the dealer is the one who is likely to have a lot more control than the addict, and the prostitute than the customer.

The whole point here is to not punish the desperate. That's what it comes down too. The recognition that otherwise good people will do bad things if they're desperate enough and that they should be helped and not punished for it.

It's by no means a perfect approach, but one strategy which is certainly a lot better than not doing it is arresting the dealers but not the users.

Or the customers but not the prostitutes.

Because the users and the prostitutes (which at street level usually are drug users as well) are the ones likely to be desperate, and the dealer and customers the ones preying in their desperation.

As I said it's not perfect, in both cases a better option would be to accept that these things happen and try and make it safer, allow the drugs and the prostitution, but ensure it's done transparently, with the least harm possible.

To try and reduce the reasons people get into these messes and help them get out of it.

Just for clarity I'm 99% talking street level prostitution here. Higher up there are more people who legitimately are fully consenting, and when everyone's consenting I don't think you should arrest anyone regardless.

It's only a problem when the prostitutes consent is only out of sheer desperation, because that's exploitation.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

It's only a problem when the prostitutes consent is only out of sheer desperation, because that's exploitation.

How is the customer supposed to know the difference, unless it's a crack whore or something? What you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to sell their body (for whatever reason) it's not exploitation if someone takes them up on that... same for drugs. I've bought heroin on the streets before. They weren't exploiting me. If anything, I feel like it was the other way around. They were desperate, not me. I sought them out. I paid them as little as possible. I've never paid for sex. Why would I? (I'm gorgeous. They should pay me.) But, if I did pay for it I wouldn't be exploiting people. Brothels exploit prostitutes. Pimps exploit prostitutes. A street hooker and a customer is an exchange. Cash for service. That's how I see it anyway, unless they're totally strung out crack heads or something... but even in that situation it's either me or (potentially) some abusive psycho. They're not going to stop fucking for money if I don't rent their ass for an hour.

 

[somnilicious]

No, it's still like arresting the drug dealer but not the addict.

Addicts aren't exploiting drug dealers by buying from them.
Prostitutes aren't exploiting customers by serving them.

Any exploitation is happening the other way around, and assuming the dealer isn't also a user (which is a messy complication that is sadly quite common), the dealer is the one who is likely to have a lot more control than the addict, and the prostitute than the customer.

The whole point here is to not punish the desperate. That's what it comes down too. The recognition that otherwise good people will do bad things if they're desperate enough and that they should be helped and not punished for it.

It's by no means a perfect approach, but one strategy which is certainly a lot better than not doing it is arresting the dealers but not the users.

Or the customers but not the prostitutes.

Because the users and the prostitutes (which at street level usually are drug users as well) are the ones likely to be desperate, and the dealer and customers the ones preying in their desperation.

As I said it's not perfect, in both cases a better option would be to accept that these things happen and try and make it safer, allow the drugs and the prostitution, but ensure it's done transparently, with the least harm possible.

To try and reduce the reasons people get into these messes and help them get out of it.

Just for clarity I'm 99% talking street level prostitution here. Higher up there are more people who legitimately are fully consenting, and when everyone's consenting I don't think you should arrest anyone regardless.

It's only a problem when the prostitutes consent is only out of sheer desperation, because that's exploitation.

I don't see why it is always exploiting. Like already said how am I supposed to know. My only experience was where it's legal in Colombia and the girls there would chase me around several blocks offering sex like a dealer and I was extremely lonely and hadn't been with anybody in years. They then offered me drugs to draw me in. The girls totally tried to take advantage of me, trying to rob me and laughing about it.

One pretty girl would come up and rub me up and down every day on the street. I finally decided to take her up on the offer and she would jump up before time demanding more money, untill she pulled a nice little switch-a-roo with her big friend and I left feeling fully taken advantage of. Not my proudest moment. In retrospect I would never do it again and it was really the drugs that drew me in and I'm disgusted that I let my loneliness in another country influence me into putting myself in a dangerous situation.

A lot of dealers are desperate ghetto kids that don't have fathers or food and get drawn in by older gang members and basically pimped out to do their street corner dealing. They then pick up felonies as a kid and are usually locked into the lifestyle for life. Especially when they as kids start popping out a bunch of their own kids that need clothes and food. What they do is usually out of desperation. so no.... I don't really see the difference. People tend to only self identify, especially on issues involving their gender and demonize the other side without considering both sides....e.g. Msgamp opening the thread by stating how mad she was at men.

Some people seem to get addicted to sex and ruin their marriage, family and life just the same as an addict so again the parallel to the dealer addict relationship still applies. It's a very grey subject as most things are.

I must admit I do feel really bad about the event now because I have heard a lot of those girls are trafficked but I wasn't thinking about that at the time because the girl was definitely overage, she was using all her feminine seduction to pull me in and all of this was done under the watchful eye of the heavily armed, machine gun toting Colombian police who sat on every street corner of the red light district.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

oh, rotten.
I have tried. And I did have the flu. Plus a computer issue. Plus my new teaching job which entails a
lot of fucking around with tiny bits of work these poor ten years olds have managed.
But am beginning to wonder if the problem is that I can't write on Dex very well. Sounds silly but other day I was on cold and
flu tabs with pseudoephedrine and that was SO MUCH better.
I am dependent on Dex as it is the only thing that shifts my depression, but at the same time it
makes me dumb. I am
pretty stim sensitive and even a few Dex make me restless and fidgety.
They are great for getting housework done, but not for anything requiring mental application.
The other thing is that the topic is SO ugly. There's so much ugly
porn around.
I have recently started seeing a very nice ex-boyfriend of mine again and I was trying to talk to him about it today, and he ended up saying, "oh God, do we have to keep talking about this?" - meaning he finds it too ugly to cope with as well.
And I thought, SOMEONE needs to talk about it - someone who is not, for example, trying to convert people to Christianity or Mormonism (which seems to be the hidden agenda for the 2 most vocal anti-porn orgs online - Exodus Cry and Fight the New Drug).
I am not too "hip" to take my hat off to fundamentalist Christians or Mormons if they are involved with NO expectation of effecting conversions or enlarging their ranks.
To be frank, I am a Christian myself, but in a non-church going way ... I've read the Gospels and I see so much beauty and truth in them, whether or not they accurately reflect what Jesus may or
may not have said.
One thing He did allegedly say was that when trying to help people in distress, "never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing": ie, give your help, love or money with NO expectation of "thanks" or being seen as a "good person". A good deed is vitiated as soon as you say, "hey, I'm doing good deeds here!" and begin moralising and self - aggrandising and expecting your kickback.
That's what Exodus Cry and Fight the New Drug seem to be doing.
It's very off-putting. Yet in a way they are the only groups who seem to impress people on a large scale.
And it seems petty to criticise Exodus Cry IF as they claim they really have rescued young people from sex trafficking ....
oh, their "doco". It was heavily relying on "re-enactments", very slick ... and very salacious I thought. Struck me as suitable for people with a prurient interest in the subject who need the cop-out of "oh but this is ANTI-EXPLOITATION", while having one hand in their pants as they watch scenes of beautiful teenage girls being menaced and beaten by vaguely Russified "traffickers" ... huge thugs with foreign accents and (implicitly) very large penises.
Well, there's my porn piece so far.

Sorry you got sick but am happy you started seeing a nice ex boyfriend and things are looking better for you.

A Merry Christmas and Happy Boxing Day to you, in case we don’t speak again till then.

 

[JessFR]

I don't see why it is always exploiting. Like already said how am I supposed to know. My only experience was where it's legal in Colombia and the girls there would chase me around several blocks offering sex like a dealer and I was extremely lonely and hadn't been with anybody in years. They then offered me drugs to draw me in. The girls totally tried to take advantage of me, trying to rob me and laughing about it.

One pretty girl would come up and rub me up and down every day on the street. I finally decided to take her up on the offer and she would jump up before time demanding more money, untill she pulled a nice little switch-a-roo with her big friend and I left feeling fully taken advantage of. Not my proudest moment. In retrospect I would never do it again and it was really the drugs that drew me in and I'm disgusted that I let my loneliness in another country influence me into putting myself in a dangerous situation.

A lot of dealers are desperate ghetto kids that don't have fathers or food and get drawn in by older gang members and basically pimped out to do their street corner dealing. They then pick up felonies as a kid and are usually locked into the lifestyle for life. Especially when they as kids start popping out a bunch of their own kids that need clothes and food. What they do is usually out of desperation. so no.... I don't really see the difference. People tend to only self identify, especially on issues involving their gender and demonize the other side without considering both sides....e.g. Msgamp opening the thread by stating how mad she was at men.

Some people seem to get addicted to sex and ruin their marriage, family and life just the same as an addict so again the parallel to the dealer addict relationship still applies. It's a very grey subject as most things are.

I must admit I do feel really bad about the event now because I have heard a lot of those girls are trafficked but I wasn't thinking about that at the time because the girl was definitely overage, she was using all her feminine seduction to pull me in and all of this was done under the watchful eye of the heavily armed, machine gun toting Colombian police who sat on every street corner of the red light district.

Well this is why I said assuming the dealer isn't also a user. In the real world there's messy overlap that make establishing who's the bad guy and who, if anyone should be punished quite difficult.

I don't particularly want to see drug dealers arrested for being drug dealers at all, but this is assuming simplified versions of these scenarios. I'm also assuming western versions of these scenarios.

I'm never gonna blame the prostitute for men cheating on their wives though, that that. Even if it's an addiction that doesn't excuse it. Your addiction doesn't excuse everything. Mine certainly didn't excuse everything wrong I did.

These situations can often get messy, but there are general patterns. And while I have no desire to criminalize drug use, or fully consentual sex for money, there are often exploitative relationships that crop up in these environments, and they are generally dealer exploiting customer and client exploiting prostitute.

 

[JessFR]

How is the customer supposed to know the difference, unless it's a crack whore or something? What you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to sell their body (for whatever reason) it's not exploitation if someone takes them up on that... same for drugs. I've bought heroin on the streets before. They weren't exploiting me. If anything, I feel like it was the other way around. They were desperate, not me. I sought them out. I paid them as little as possible. I've never paid for sex. Why would I? (I'm gorgeous. They should pay me.) But, if I did pay for it I wouldn't be exploiting people. Brothels exploit prostitutes. Pimps exploit prostitutes. A street hooker and a customer is an exchange. Cash for service. That's how I see it anyway, unless they're totally strung out crack heads or something... but even in that situation it's either me or (potentially) some abusive psycho. They're not going to stop fucking for money if I don't rent their ass for an hour.

That's an excuse. If you actually cared you could just give them money in exchange for nothing.

The "well if it's not me it would be someone worse" thing is just a justification.

Look, I won't pretend these are easy situations with easy solutions. They're messy and what's really needed is interventions to prevent people ending up in these kinds of situations and to get them out of them if they happen.

If there was no exploitive sex work, and the only sex workers that existed were fully consenting, you wouldn't have to worry about telling the difference.

I don't care about fully consenting sex work and I agree it exists. I'm only talking about when exploitive power dynamics get involved.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

they are generally dealer exploiting customer and client exploiting prostitute.

I disagree. It depends on many factors, including what drug you're talking about. Weed dealers don't exploit people. Hippies that sell psychedelics at festivals don't exploit people. I've bought drugs from a lot of dealers over the decades. Only one dealer exploited me. He knew I was struggling with meth addiction and he took advantage of that by pushing it on me and tempting me as much as possible. He also encouraged me to "tick" when I didn't have money then pressured me to pay it back when he knew I couldn't. So, I had to borrow money off people and sell my shit. This is exploitation but it doesn't define most of the dealers in the western world.

this is why I said assuming the dealer isn't also a user.

The scenario @somnilicious described wasn't users pushing drugs, it was kids being forced into that lifestyle. Maybe they're exploiting users (maybe) but they're also being exploited.

That's an excuse. If you actually cared you could just give them money in exchange for nothing.

Why the fuck would I give prostitutes money for nothing? They make a pretty good living... They should give me money!

If there was no exploitive sex work, and the only sex workers that existed were fully consenting, you wouldn't have to worry about telling the difference.

I don't care about fully consenting sex work and I agree it exists. I'm only talking about when exploitive power dynamics get involved.

You think the majority of sex workers in the western world are non-consenting? I think it's the other way round.

 

[somnilicious]

I'm never gonna blame the prostitute for men cheating on their wives though, that that. Even if it's an addiction that doesn't excuse it. Your addiction doesn't excuse everything. Mine certainly didn't excuse everything wrong I did.

I just want to be clear in saying that I would never blame a prostitute for someone's infidelity because our addictions don't excuse our indiscretions. I was simply drawing a parallel between sex and drug addiction. It was very similar as in I was very lonely, in a foreign country, craving company and I had to walk by the women everyday as they were quite literally pushing their wares on me. Even going as far as to grab my dick while kissing me and rubbing me up and down. It really did feel like my weaknesses were being exploited by these women that knew exactly what they were doing. Especially when they started throwing drugs into the equation.

I however am also quite aware that these women were probably doing this out of need and desperation and also may have been trafficked into the situation or may have been being forced to work by a pimp, so it is really an ugly situation all around. I'm honestly ashamed to think that I may have contributed to any such exploitation, even if I was taken advantage of myself. I would never get involved with a working girl again for many personal reasons related to the loveless nature of the act but also because of the aforementioned reasons.

There is some really good conversation in this thread and I can definitely see both sides. I believe neither the prostitute nor John should be prosecuted and money and resources should be used to help intercede and help those who are exploited and trafficked.

 

[JessFR]

I just want to be clear in saying that I would never blame a prostitute for someone's infidelity because our addictions don't excuse our indiscretions. I was simply drawing a parallel between sex and drug addiction. It was very similar as in I was very lonely, in a foreign country, craving company and I had to walk by the women everyday as they were quite literally pushing their wares on me. Even going as far as to grab my dick while kissing me and rubbing me up and down. It really did feel like my weaknesses were being exploited by these women that knew exactly what they were doing. Especially when they started throwing drugs into the equation.

I however am also quite aware that these women were probably doing this out of need and desperation and also may have been trafficked into the situation or may have been being forced to work by a pimp, so it is really an ugly situation all around. I'm honestly ashamed to think that I may have contributed to any such exploitation, even if I was taken advantage of myself.

And to that what I would argue is that it's possible for both of you to be essentially victims of a larger system or circumstance.

 

[somnilicious]

And to that what I would argue is that it's possible for both of you to be essentially victims of a larger system or circumstance.

Exactly as I see it and something I alluded to and had actually intended to include in my post.... Thanks for helping fill in the gaps in my statement and succinctly wrapping up my sentiments on the subject at hand

 

[LeeSleeper38]

I always wondered why there are so few complaints on this site. I saw a lot of illegal content, and this caused me a lot of questions. I'm not surprised they had to delete some of their videos. For this reason, I like visiting sites like http://www.camsvids.tv/categories/big-ass/ . These girls are 18, and I can satisfy my desires with peace of mind.

 

[Deru]

Shortly after the NYT released this article here, and Visa and MasterCard dropped PornHub, they removed close to 10 million videos. The numbers seem to vary from source to source, but it appears that was a majority of their videos.

 

[JessFR]

It's funny how time and again the impossible has this habit of becoming very much possible as soon as people's lives or livelihoods are on the line.

I can't say I'm sorry. There's some very sketchy reports about what pornhub has allowed to go on and made no real effort to stop.

 

[Deru]

Yeah, I found PornHub became increasingly disturbing. The amount of incest videos that were everywhere really bothered me too.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

Yeah, I found PornHub became increasingly disturbing. The amount of incest videos that were everywhere really bothered me too.

Not real incest that’s fake, porn actors just acting like they’re family.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

I disagree. It depends on many factors, including what drug you're talking about. Weed dealers don't exploit people. Hippies that sell psychedelics at festivals don't exploit people. I've bought drugs from a lot of dealers over the decades. Only one dealer exploited me. He knew I was struggling with meth addiction and he took advantage of that by pushing it on me and tempting me as much as possible. He also encouraged me to "tick" when I didn't have money then pressured me to pay it back when he knew I couldn't. So, I had to borrow money off people and sell my shit. This is exploitation but it doesn't define most of the dealers in the western world.



The scenario @somnilicious described wasn't users pushing drugs, it was kids being forced into that lifestyle. Maybe they're exploiting users (maybe) but they're also being exploited.




Why the fuck would I give prostitutes money for nothing? They make a pretty good living... They should give me money!



You think the majority of sex workers in the western world are non-consenting? I think it's the other way round.

I’d be scared to even touch a prostitute even with protection.