Am I having Kratom withdrawal?

[elbacano]

Hello everyone. I had a pretty serious neck injury a year ago, that's left me with a constant headache... More like intense head pressure. None of the meds my neurologist worked, except for Hydrocodone. But they wouldn't prescribe that regularly, and I don't really want to take it regularly anyways. So about 3 months ago I did some research, learned about and tried Kratom, and was amazed that it took away 90% of my symptom. I started using it everyday, and for the first time in a year felt like I had my life back. More recently I was taking about 1.5 to 3 teaspoons/day. However a couple weeks ago I started having RLS like symptoms and hot/cold flashes when the Kratom wasn't at it's peak. I read up on the Kratom withdrawal symptoms, got a little worried about it and decided to quit cold turkey. Today is the 2nd day and I feel horrible... The RLS isn't as bad as it was on day 1, however I'm extremely weak (almost flu-like), have no appetite, can't sleep, and my head is worse than it was before I started the Kratom.

But I'm a little confused if this is definitely Kratom withdrawal, or if my original injury's symptoms have just gotten worse, without me realizing it because of the Kratom. I'm hoping some of you who have been through Kratom withdrawal can chime in, and help me figure out what's going on... And if this does sound like withdrawal, how long I'm in for this.

Thanks!

 

[Raki]

Kratom does contain an opioid-like alkaloid, 7-Hydroxymitragynine (actually an indole terpenoid mimicing opioids), but it only ever presents in miniscule percentages, .20% being the top figure. Theoretically, IF you have an honest source, AND he has an honest and knowledgable vendor you could purchase a tincture containing enough of that alkaloid to produce a physical dependency. However, as someone involved in producing the leaf I am not aware of a single person producing an actual product with sufficient amounts of the alkaloid. I need to add that even if there was a person doing so they wouldnt be able to produce a consistent product since alkaloid concentration varies even within a single leaf. Ergo they would not be able to accurately gauge the strength of their product making it very dangerous to consume.

Unless you are purchasing intact leaf you have no idea what you are taking. Of course that is true of all illicit substances as well but in this case you are trying to avoid withdrawal and therefore it is a crucial issue. IF what you are taking is actually Kratom then it would be close to impossible to have anything but a minimal physical dependency.

 

[socko]

I'm going to make the assumption that all vendors are too cheap to add any other drug to their kratom. I read on here and on websites devoted to kratom 100s of reports that kratom "strains" have either a stimulant or an opiate like effect that works in the range of 1 - 3 heaping teaspoons (5 - 15 grams dry). I've even tried kratom that had these effects. Often it was like a combination of strong coffee mixed with 100 mg (for me, enough for a mild effect) codeine. Sometimes there was even some itching if I recall. Too large a dose was like too large a dose of a mild opiate like codeine. You have to lie down and then you can't sleep. Overall, it was like a coffee substitute.

When you mix together 100 pounds of leaves, the alkaloid content will average out so you have a mean alkaloid content per batch for that tree at the time of harvest, and can get a statistically accurate estimate.

I got bad wd symptoms the 2 or 3 times when I quit caffeine cold turkey: migraine, can barely move and stay in bed, no energy. It lasted a few days.

 

[elbacano]

Well I'm on day 3 with no Kratom, and I feel noticeably better than I did the previous 2 days... Which were horrible! But I'm glad there's some relief now. As soon as I can get some sleep at night, I think I'll be back to my old self. But who knows when that will be. My Dr was cool about it and prescribed me Promethazine, so hopefully that will help me sleep tonight.

When we're talking about "physical dependency" are we talking about withdrawal, or addiction? They're not one in the same. I am not addicted to Kratom. I have no cravings to continue using it like I did when I quit smoking. However the WD seems very real, and I'm not convinced at all that everyone who's reported withdrawal symptoms had Kratom laced with something else. I purchased mine from KwikKratom.com, which I've read nothing but good reviews about.

 

[Karma coma]

Kratom is fantastic stuff… I now use it for pain as well as dealing with post acute withdrawal which has been really bad since I quit heavy opioids. In my experience the physical withdrawal is very real although fairly mild. Personally I would compare the withdrawal I get to that of tramadol. It does contain at least two alkaloids which act as an opiod agonist. I believe kratom also modulates serotonin… hence the tramadol comparison. I do take a crap load a day… and length of use as well as the amount you take will effect the withdrawal intensity.

Kratom and tramadol have similar effects on the brain … the are both opioidergic, adrenergic, serotonergic, and dopaminergic. So it has a mild but complex withdrawal.

 

[Raki]

Socko: Using an RC is ALOT cheaper than sourcing leaf. The import liscences themselves cost more than the leaf. As for averaging out, Im not sure how that can happen because each leaf has a different content. Each individual leaf has a highly varied count from 0 to .20% so it is impossible unfortunately.

As for varities, if there was a way to create strains etc it would have been done (as of yet they dont exist). Vendors that claim to have different strains are hustling people. There are no sub-varieties. If you buy leaf say in Cambodia, or Mindanao, noone can tell the difference. It isnt like poppies where a variety presents with a reliable morphine count.

As for itching, how much you want to bet that the vendor dropped a riff on MT-45 (an RC). That is the problem, you are relying upon people you dont know whose chief objective is to separate you from your money.

 

[socko]

I've only tried kratom from vendors in the US, and some of it was strong. Some of it was really like morphine, codeine or west coast tar heroin. I would nod, 'dream,' have itches, insomnia, etc. I have no way of knowing if it had RCs added to it. I haven't looked up the original literature either, but supposedly it had been used for centuries by SE Asians for its effects. So there must be enough alkaloid content in the leaf to have a real effect, right? Or is the kratom sold today completely different in its effects from what the natives used it for?

Do you know if the kratom on the market now has ever been tested for RCs?

Also, different strains of kratom trees actually look different. For example, the leaves of some have red veins, others have white veins, and others green veins. Vendors claim that the different stains which can be identified by their leaves have different effects. Red vein kratom might be more opiate like while white vein kratom has a stimulant effect.

According the wikipedia, MT45 can cause hearing loss, so that's scary. It had effects on my hearing and caused muscle spasms in my ear canals. MT45 or other RCs make can explain the horrible withdrawal symptoms a lot of people are reporting. The starter of this thread and many other people describe what sounds like opiate WDs rather than WDs from a mild substance like kratom.

On averaging the content, I meant the statistical definition. You take 10,000 leaves. You do an extraction which yields 1 gram of pure mitragynine. Dividing 1 gram by 10,000 leaves gives you 0.0001 gram per leaf. You still have no idea what the content of each leaf is. Some could have 0 mitragynine and others could have 0.001g each. It can be very misleading, but chemical content might be described taht way because it's convenient.


Edit: As far as I can tell, lots of kratom is sold in the us,and its effects are like that of tramadol or something both opioid and stimulating in its effects. The strong form of kratom is powdered leaf. The weak form is whole leaf. Finely powdered leaf has a greater surface area and thus better absorption.

As a skeptic, I have never read of a kratom death or overdose. If vendors are adding RCs on a large scale, by now, somebody would have messed up at least once and added too much of an RC causing a death.

Isn't it possible that the 3 or 4 main suppliers in the world just found stronger strains, similar to the way marijuana today is much stronger than that of the mj of the 1960s? That and selling it as powder for better absorption could explain it.

 

[ButylOWNED]

I don't think they are adding any rc chems..if anything it's selective breeding that's making the kratom stronger

 

[Wants2Nod]

I know this is an old thread, but I felt like chiming in for future readers.

I've been taking kratom daily for years. I've been dosing plain powdered leaf 4x a day for a long, long time. My total intake hovers around 30 grams per day.

It definitely causes physical dependence. Not as bad as harder refined or synthetic opiods, but you will experience a real withdrawal syndrome upon stopping daily kratom use. It's similar to having a bad cold, with restless legs, anxiety, and some stomach discomfort thrown in. Lots of sinus symptoms.

While it's not nearly as bad as withdrawal from 'hard' opiod dependence, it is real, and it's fairly unpleasant.

I also contend that having gone through both many times (and still trying to get off tramadol), kratom withdrawal isn't nearly as bad, or 'weird', as tramadol withdrawal. Tramadol withdrawal has a lot of strange symptoms, probably do the SNRI activity, that kratom withdrawal doesn't have. I find kratom a LOT easier to stop cold turkey then tramadol. Even at my relatively heavy level of use, I could stop kratom tomorrow, and still slug my way through the week at work. With tramadol, the weird 'brain zaps', twitches, and electric shock sensations you get while withdrawal make you pretty much non-functional - I'll seem fine, then feel a 'shock' and black out for a second or two. It's scary. Kratom withdrawal has never produced anything near that for me.

 

[ButylOWNED]

Man, I have read some terrible WD stories about kratom." Most " of the people that suffered the worst were people with little to no former opioid use. It's sucks don't get me wrong but it's no sub or OC WD at all ...