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Albizia julibrissin tryptamine extraction?

H

H2SO4_so_tasty

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Sep 7, 2009
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I have got a few Albizia julibrissin trees in my back yard, I have collected an estimated 80 G of seeds, too lazy to go for the root bark, i know acacia columberina has 8 % bufotenin in the seed, I am drying the seeds now, I am planning on doing an acid base extraction, I know that the amazonian natives roasted the seeds first, but I am scared of doing this as heat is bad for most tryptamines, I have had problems before with simple extractions when I overground the matterial, what do you think would be the optimum granule size? and does anyone else have experience with this species or bean extractions?

Also assuming there are tryptamines in there, could I just put the crystals under my tounge w/ out an maoi? There are many blood vessels under there and if I don't swallow it wont hit my gut, I know nitrate pills for heart patients are inactive when swallowed, they put them under the tongue. when taken via the nose, which should be similar tryptamines are active, unless the MAO's are in the Sylvia why wouldn't they be under the tounge?
 
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Dont know about any extractions but i would love to hear how it goes. Also like the name... what do you do for a living?
 
Albizia does not contain any tryptamines, as far as I know. Yes, it's called "Mimosa", but it's not the one you're looking for...

(some very brief independent research would have cleared this up for you)
 
Oh, I am just a bit of a chemistry nerd. Sulfuric acid is the universal catalyst.

I did do some research, I have seen some places saying that the species does have tryptamines, I mean, they are very common chemicals in plants, they are used as biological precursors to growth regulating hormones, The reason so many have these alkaloids is because on the off chance a gene mutated to produce some crazy neurotransmitter analogue it would kill insects, neurotransmitters type shit(phenethylamines, tryptamines, opiods) tend to be toxic to organisms, however the few that survive and only get strange personality effects and a high tolerance can go on and eat them, so they will have a higher chance of not starving and thus reproducing, We are their offspring's offspring's offspring's offspring.

I am getting off track, but tons of plants have alkaloids, especially in the seeds, I have heard references to this species having it, but I was wondering if anyone could give me any hard numbers as to alkaliods, there are probably alkaloids, the question is however, Is it 500 mg or a single nano-gram?

even at a .01 percent yield I get 10 mg or so, enough for slight effects
 
H2SO4_so_tasty said:
Oh, I am just a bit of a chemistry nerd. Sulfuric acid is the universal catalyst.

I did do some research, I have seen some places saying that the species does have tryptamines, I mean, they are very common chemicals in plants, they are used as biological precursors to growth regulating hormones, The reason so many have these alkaloids is because on the off chance a gene mutated to produce some crazy neurotransmitter analogue it would kill insects, neurotransmitters type shit(phenethylamines, tryptamines, opiods) tend to be toxic to organisms, however the few that survive and only get strange personality effects and a high tolerance can go on and eat them, so they will have a higher chance of not starving and thus reproducing, We are their offspring's offspring's offspring's offspring.

I am getting off track, but tons of plants have alkaloids, especially in the seeds, I have heard references to this species having it, but I was wondering if anyone could give me any hard numbers as to alkaliods, there are probably alkaloids, the question is however, Is it 500 mg or a single nano-gram?

even at a .01 percent yield I get 10 mg or so, enough for slight effects
Click to expand...

#1 sulfuric acid is not a universal catalyst. it may be a catalyst for some reactions, but by no means is a universal catalyst.

#2 just because the plant has alkaloids or tryptamines, does not mean they're recreational alkaloids/tryptamines. In fact, if you don't know the full alkaloid composition of this plant from a good source, I sure as hell wouldn't consume an extract of any kind. Who knows what you could be pulling out of the plant and poisoning yourself with.

The beans from this plant are *known* to be poisonous, and they might be the same thing you're calling the seed.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/silktree.html
 
Qnick said:
#1 sulfuric acid is not a universal catalyst. it may be a catalyst for some reactions, but by no means is a universal catalyst.

#2 just because the plant has alkaloids or tryptamines, does not mean they're recreational alkaloids/tryptamines. In fact, if you don't know the full alkaloid composition of this plant from a good source, I sure as hell wouldn't consume an extract of any kind. Who knows what you could be pulling out of the plant and poisoning yourself with.

The beans from this plant are *known* to be poisonous, and they might be the same thing you're calling the seed.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/silktree.html
Click to expand...

Sulfuric acid is not necessarily a universal catalyst but it a VERY versatile one.

you could use it in:
synthesis of esters
synthesis of ethers
synthesis of alcohols
catylization of alkyl halides
catylization for nitration ractions
aminization reactions(spelling anyone?)
and many more

Of course it is not going to catalyse all or most reactions, however it is a good choice for substitution reactions because typically the sulfate ion doesn't like to jump on to crap randomly, It tends to prefer small polar molecules vs large non-polar carbon based ones, If you are dealing with adding on to an amino group or onto a hydroxyl or ketone/aldehyde group, or even sometimes single or double bonded carbons(H+ loves to break pi bonds) really any acid would work, but sulfuric is highly acidic, common, and it doesn't as readily for sulfate salts or sulfate esters as would other acids.



Oh I am quite aware that not all alkaloids are the "good" kind, just look at gramine, I never said was going to ingest this material without knowing weather or not it is toxic, the mao question was really added later and is in relation to all DMT relatives, before I even considered ingesting a bit of a milligram, I would have to do some testing first, I might buy a few of those mice that they feed to the snakes at pet stores (they would have had a horrible constricting death anyway) do some weight calculations, and feed them an active mg/ kg dose made by liquid fractioning. If none of those 5 or so die i would give 5 or so more a heavy dose, maybe 50 or so mg a kg if none of those 5 or so die, then I know it is at least not VERY toxic, that is it would be on the range of DMT toxicity, then I would proceed to test it on a higher mammal, something closer to us, I could trap some of those feral cats around the neighbourhood (damn things eat all the sparrows) and give them an 50 or so milligram dose, If no adverse effects are seen after 3 days I might consider ingesting 1/2 of a milligram.

also just for posterity fly agric mushrooms are also *known* to be poisonous, people eat those too, although I wouldent

I am sorry if I was not clear, just going of in the woods and finding some random plant and doing an extraction on it is a very bad idea, almost as bad as finding a mushroom in your front yard and eating it with no advice from a professional, I was not intending to do this without tests. There is a fine line between neurotoxic and psychedelic.
 
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H2SO4_so_tasty said:
There is a fine line between neurotoxic and psychedelic.
Click to expand...

Maybe in some cases, but in this context I'd say that this doesn't sound at all psychedelic.
"The legume (bean) contains a neurotoxic alkaloid that is responsible for the nervous signs and is thought to act as a pyridoxine (vitamin B 6 ) antagonist."

I'm not sure how B6 antagonism can produce a psychedelic effect.


But I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you. If you really want to go all out and ingest some mystery alkaloids, I wish you luck and hope you don't do any damage to yourself.
 
Perhaps your right, I still might try giving some to a few mice, it might be interesting. Besides, they would have died anyway.
 
Really man? I post a link showing you something's poisonous and is *known* to kill animals, and you're still going to give it to an animal?

Whats the experiment there? You'd just be needlessly killing something.
 
I know dmt in freebase form is technically smokable but I have not heard present things about it. I don't know, I have just heard around that tryptamines are heat sensitive, It might not be true.

I have to admit the cats would be taking it a bit far. However I don't think it would be an issue with mice. Have you ever seen a snake eat, It is absolutely horrid, first they constrict them and crush the prey's ribs, then they are slowly smothered over a few minutes and swallowed whole. Why is this any different than puting just one bite under your pantry, shit makes you bleed out of every hole, eyes, ears, nose, not to mention other places. While the cat quote was more just to make the point that I was not going to be just taking extracts of random drugs without at least some knowledge of toxicity I have read forum posts on other sites of people discussing this issue, some report it works, some don't.

Here, I am just going to play devils advocate.

Aminita muscaria is also documented to be toxic and it does kill people occasionally, yet it is still taken as a drug. the same thing is true of people who mistake the toxic cane toad for species in the bufo genus. Speaking of which, sleepy grass is also toxic and is known to cause seizures and brain damage in sheep, and yet a certain online ethobotanical supply sells them (not to bad mouth them, they are truly a great company). Besides the toxic portion could have been mistaken for an alkaloid. But it may be something similar to the compounds in toad, or spider venom, which are accompanied by alkaloids. Or that could have been an isolated population of trees that were infected with a fungus, tons of tree's have fungi, and lots of times fungi produce toxic compounds.

Most likely if toxins are present they are from the plant and are in the beans, however I am just saying that there could be another explanation (devils advocate remeber?). While I understand your point about the animals, I really wasn't serious about the cat thing I really don't see what is so horrible about subjecting a few mice to an experiment when they would otherwise most likely be killed by a snake after they were bought or poisoned if they were in a house wild, And hey if the little guys come out ok, its all the beter for them, I would just drop them off in the woods. they would win their freedom.
 
not everything that is a toxin is the same.

This specific one is supposed to be a B6 antagonist.
not some mystery toxin.

just because some toxins are mistaken for for psychedelics, or because some deadly compounds are psychedelic in low doses doesn't change the facts about this plant.

I'm not going to go over this anymore, im done trying to convince you. you clearly don't get it.
 
No really, upon thinking more ingestion would be a bad idea, I am not planning on doing it. I was just throwing out the fact that some plants have previously been described as toxic and are really not. Would it not be an interesting curiosity if these compounds turned out not to kill mice? I think that at least since I have the extraction set up it is worthy of at the least just seeing what I get out of it.

I believe you are right that actual ingestion of material would be bad idea. Still, would it not be interesting to see what kind of yield would be obtained, and at least some indication of its short term toxicity?
 
Chemistry nerd myself,

If you have the resources and free time to do this extraction then i would suggest using the time and resources to extract something a lot more fun=D
 
H2SO4_so_tasty said:
Aminita muscaria is also documented to be toxic and it does kill people occasionally, yet it is still taken as a drug. the same thing is true of people who mistake the toxic cane toad for species in the bufo genus.
Click to expand...

Bufo marinus is the cane toad. :\

Most likely if toxins are present they are from the plant and are in the beans, however I am just saying that there could be another explanation (devils advocate remeber?). While I understand your point about the animals, I really wasn't serious about the cat thing I really don't see what is so horrible about subjecting a few mice to an experiment when they would otherwise most likely be killed by a snake after they were bought or poisoned if they were in a house wild, And hey if the little guys come out ok, its all the beter for them, I would just drop them off in the woods. they would win their freedom.
Click to expand...

Okay, let me get this straght. You are opposed to mice being killed by snakes if they are free or by poisons, and yet you are planning on poisoning them, and f they live, set them free? What EXACTLY are you talking about? Take note of what I put in bold

Not many people on this forum are going to support you doing this. Animals shouldn't die so you can figure out some pointless crap about a useless plant. :| Use a plant that, you know, actually does something. 8)
 
Collective Happiness Bark

This plant is not toxic. At least the bark and flower's aren't, I don't know about the seeds. In fact it has been used in traditional chinese medicine for millennia as a stress reliever and nerve tonic. I don't know if it has tryptamines, but i can assure you that it is not toxic. I can assure you this because i just took a dose of a commercially prepared ethyl extract, and i am clearly not dead. In traditional Chinese medicine it is known as "collective happiness bark" and has been used to treat depression and mood disturbances. So yeah, that's what i have to say. - nick
 
Shambles said:
Why not test it on yourself instead of mice and cats then? You're also going to die anyway at some point ;)
Click to expand...
Hear, hear!

You are the one who wants their consciousness altered; I see no one better to assume the risks of your endeavors than yourself.

An it harm none, do as ye will.



PS: Post 333.
 
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Here's a useful thread over at entheogen.com

Here's a snip with some useful content info:

"The active constituents of albizzia are saponins and tannins, while specifically it contains albitocin, b-sitosterol, amyrin, 3,4,7-trihydroxyflavone, spinasterylglucoside, machaerinic acid, lactone, methyl ester, acaci acid and lactone. [9] Several compounds flavonol glycosides, which have demonstrated sedative activity ,4 are also including quercetrin and isoquercetrin is also a part of its constituents. Finally research has revealed significant antioxidant activity from the bark.[10]

"Both the bark and the flowers of albizzia are used as a calming sedative in Oriental traditional medicine.[7] Categorized in the Chinese Materia Medica as a calming spirit herb, the bark is thought to “anchor” the spirit, while the flowers lighten it. The flowers have also been used for the treatment of insomnia, amnesia, sore throat, and contusion in Oriental traditional medicine (Kang, et al) as well as depression, melancholy and anxiety.[8]"

http://www.planetherbs.com/showcase/docs/albizzia.php
 
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