Opioids Advice on coiming off oxy 120mgs/day in one month!

[milagro]

I never thought I would be in the position I just found myself in. I will not go into the logistics of why I need to do it but suffice to say I have to do it.

I have been taking 120mgs of oxy 80mgER and 40mgs IR a day for about 9 months for chronic pain that results from 4 or 5 different diagnoses. I am ready to stop because I am sick of the constant fight with WD's if I go without for over 24 hours. It has now become a necessity and I am sure there are threads in this forum that might describe taper schedules but I cannot find one that is relative to my situation.

I have prescriptions for (I didn't read the faq about posting amounts) the next month so I have as much as the dosage I indicated if I took it every day for 30 days-do the math. I know I have some time but this is a relatively large dose taken for a while, I have a month, and I will have no prescriptions after this. I have some left over from the last script but only a few days worth. I have tried kicking "cold turkey" before but the WD's were too severe and I do not have a 4-5 days of free time to endure it. Just began volunteering at a boys and girls club so I cannot let anyone down by showing up sick.

I was bedridden when I had to go without this crap before for a mere 48 hours and I have obligations that make that impossible at the moment. I am sure some of you are saying to yourselves "this should be a cake walk" compared to your personal experiences but I would really appreciate some adivce/help with a taper schedules, supplements or suggestions on what I can do that would allow me to be off this shit as quickly as possible while allowing me to function as close to normal as possible. Is it possible? I have been on and off opiods for 6 years now so I definitely have a bit of a tolerance.

How ironic I would join this site a week before this development. If you really want details you can ask but I do not think I am allowed to send PMs yet. Even if there is a web page or thread with a link that describes what I am asking, that would be great.

I cannot get suboxone/subutex due to insurance so that method is out. I did read one interesting thread about a guy that kicked on a similar dose with hardly any WDs using immodium(loperimide)? Is that really possible?

Advice please!

Thanks

 

[tricomb]

You don't need Buprenorphine, you're a chronic pain patient. What you need to do is slowly taper your dose down, you should ask your doctor for help with your SLOW taper. It will be more difficult to taper if all you have is the 80mg ER tablets.

A doctor should be able to prescribe you what you need to make the dose reduction bearable. This probably means switching you to 4 x 20mg ER pills.

Buprenorphine is probably not going to be the best option anyways, so I would ask your doctor to prescribe you the same amount of drugs in lower dose pills, so that you can gradually reduce your intake.

The problem is that you're in the United States, so you have the shitty form of OxyContin, so the tablets are a real bitch to split. My heart goes out to you, tapering off OCs used to be so much easier until they reformulated.

You can do it though, but you're likely going to need your doctor to help you since you can't easily modify your dose with the OP80s.

What strength IR are you taking? 2 x 20mg? 4 x 10mg? 8 x 5mg?

 

[Tommyboy]

Do you have to be off of it in a month, or do you just mean you have a 1 month prescription to work with for tapering off?

I suggest cutting out the 40mg IR pills first. Drugs that last longer are better for tapering, although you probably have the OP OxyContin which can be hard to break into smaller doses.

It's usually a lot easier to lower your dose in the beginning compared to when you are down to lower doses, so if you want to speed the process up I suggest trying to drop by 20mg at first, and if that's too much then you should be able to drop 10mg no problem.

If you start off taking only the 80mg ER then you should be fine with the 80mg during the day, and then you can add 10mg of the IR until you feel comfortable at night. It might be a little rough but I know plenty of people that drop from 120mg to 90mg oxy IR without much of a problem, and that's probably worse than dropping the ER dose. If it's too much of a drop for you then just go down to 110mg at first. I would stay at the lower dose for 3-5 days, and continue to drop by 10mg until you get down to 80mg. It will help if you are able to save some of the IR oxy for the end of the taper, or to fill in the gaps between drops since the 80mg will probably only break into 20mg pieces, so try to get down to 80mg fast so you conserve the IRs.

So once you get to 80mg of the ER, you could drop to 60mg of the ER, with 10mg of the IR for the first 3 days or so. Then you can cut out the IR on the next dosage drop to 60mg, and go back to it for the next drop to 50mg.

The IR pills will come in handy at the end, which is why I suggest conserving them and using as little as possible. Remember, it's the end of the taper that is a lot worse than the beginning.

Once you get down to 20mg of the ER, then split 10mg doses of the IR between morning and night. You can also alternate between days of using 20mg and 10mg until you are ready to drop to the 10mg. Then once you are stable at the 10mg you can do the same thing alternating between 10mg and 5mg, and eventually between 5mg and nothing.

That's just an outline of a taper that might help. I'm not a fan of strictly staying to a taper, and prefer to just take enough to get by. Also, loperamide can help at the end of the taper.

 

[TornUpKnuckles]

I have shot heroin for a decade. But now I'm clean. I tried everything to get clean....rehab, bupe, methadone, tapering...all crap. This is what I did this time. And just so you know, I have been clean off heroin for 11 months now.

It is my belief that kicking heroin is 80% mental. We as addicts (specifically opiate addicts) are PUSSYS. We like feeling good, and bitch and complain at even the slightest discomfort. Kicking sucks, but it’s not gonna kill you. The worse part of kicking for me is the Restless legs I get. I call it doing the Riverdance in bed.

I am a Veteran. I have the VA. The VA will give me anything I want. But this time, I wanted to do it myself.

Now, this worked for me. I HAD TO DO IT NATURAL. NO MEDS, NO BENZO'S....I wanted to feel it this time. I wanted to know what it feels like to go into extreme W/D. Most importantly however, I wanted to feel what it’s like to start feeling better. I wanted to experience DAY 7....the day shit starts getting normal.

Since my lady kicked me out of the house, I called up a sober living that I was familiar with. I talked to the owner. I told him my situation. I told him I was strung out. But what I asked him...wow, it shocked him. I asked him this, "Paul, I am strung out. I need to get clean. I'm not asking you to let me go on methadone or Bupe, what I asking you is to lock me up in a room for a week and let me kick on my own." He told me that since I was honest with him, he was going to let me. I couldn’t believe it. So I did it.

I drank a lot of water, ate as healthy and as often as I could, I took a lot of showers, and I tapped danced in my bed a lot. But come day 7.......I felt like a new man.

For me, I just had to feel the pain. I had to do it this way.

It worked.

11 months


Kevbo

 

[milagro]

Hope I am doing this right. I want to try and respond to all the suggestions. First, Tommy- yes I have one month supply to taper. The ER tabs are actually 20mg 4X/day. I know that sounds strange but the new formula as tricomb suggested is crap and does not last as long as it is supposed to. It is supposed to be 12 hour but according to doc is really around 8 and I have a fast metabolism so they threw an extra in when I started it because the pain was keeping me up all night for weeks at a time.

The roxy's are 4 x 10mg for breakthrough pain. Thanks so much for the info. I have been stressing on how to make it work right and Tommy, you at least laid out some type of plan.

Tornup, my hat's off to you and if I could, I strongly considered just manning up and going through the hell for a few days but as I said, I have an obligation with this volunteering and I cannot skip out on it. I am scheduled to begin Friday and I would be a mess if I went cold turkey. Scare the hell out of everyone. I am on 100% disability and cannot live on the government's 5.35$hr/950$ mo. so I have to find supplemental work and have been trying for three years since losing a fantastic job to the damn pain. I worked with it as long as I could until they said, we cannot allow you to miss any more work. Try getting on SS.

The "cold turkey" method makes sense. I have been in a state of withdrawal many times and just prior to the horror of it, I always experience a profound sense of "awakening" that only lasts a few hours but during that time everything is vivid, I shred on the guitar, women are the most beautiful things alive,and then the shit hits and I am from the bed to the toilet until I get through it.

The thing is, I have never been all the way through it w/o the aide of other meds and doing it your way must give you a tremendous amount of pride and satisfaction. I have been off of it for extended periods of time but the back and shoulder pain I am treated for cannot be managed any other way I have found yet. I have had injections, nerve blocks, trigger injections, toradol shots, taken nsaids to the point of getting a big fat ulcer and after all that was sent to pain managment. I just found the opiate/oid treatment was easy on my system while controlling the pain most effectively and allowing me to sleep. But I do not like being tethered to meds so that I can just get by. Bitch of all conundrums.

I definitely appreciate the suggestions. One way or another I am going to face WD's as the new laws in my state have made it nearly impossible to get this type of medication unless you have a pain specialist prescribing and there just are not enough of them around at the moment. It is going to be damn near impossible to find another one. The doc I got this prescription from is leaving the country unexpectedly and I cannot get into a new clinic for another 3 months. I just want to be done with this shit and more than anything done with the pain but that will take a milagro.

 

[tricomb]

^ I understand that for your purposes, a cold turkey WD is not at all desirable. You can't be sick while you're trying to work at the boys and girls club.

I much prefer morphine for tapers, but it's fine to work with what we have. OxyContin will do, despite how shitty the formulation. I suggest you find a way to split the OP's in half. Tommy was totally right in many ways. The hard part is when you get your dose down low.

I also recommend stop taking the 10mg roxis right away, and just see how you do. The most important thing is to gauge how you're feeling and dose accordingly, we can lay out a detailed taper for you but in the end you're going to have to modify it to your comfort.

 

[milagro]

If this belongs in a new thread then let me know.--->Thanks again. I will use the roxi's sparingly. I can come down to 90mg/day NP but everyone is right, it is always the last (small doses) during a taper that are the most difficult and this is a quick taper. I know that this thread is pretty much concluded but I have been doing a lot of research on the Loperamide that I mentioned when starting the thread. I have read countless posts in this forum and others regarding Lope and WD. There is an overwhelming majority of people that believe it is the best supplement for kicking opiates. Some, not so much. I spoke with a pharmacist and they couldn't even answer the question I ask in bold.

That brings me to Tornup's reply which, as I said, I strongly considered but I doubt I have the strength to go "cold" when I still have pills lying around and have to make public appearances while discontinuing the meds. In fact, I know that I would not be able to do it unless I was in a clinical setting. Tapering on one's own sounds cool when you really want to stop but the fact remains that many opiate addicts are weak when it comes to discomfort and a need to remove that discomfort ASAP. TK did what was right for him and I am envious of his recovery.

That brings me back to the Loperamide. I searched bluelight and couldn't find a definitive answer to this question. There were too many contradictory statements depending on the individual. The question is- "Will Loperamide, when taken in doses around 20-40mg, cause precipitated withdrawal in someone who has not started active withdrawal (<18 hours post final dose of opiod)? Would it really work taking it for 4-6 days and tapering off for someone in "my position"? I am not a patient individual so if there is a way to get through this quickly with as little discomfort as possible I am all in. Call me a wimp but pain and discomfort are my copilots and I would toss them out of the plane if I could.

It seems to be a question of whether or not Lope passes the blood brain barrier (BBB) at large doses. There is no doubt it is a strong mu-opiod agonist but does it act like buprenorphine? Bupe will cross the BBB, has partial antagonist properties and will absolutely cause PWD's when taken too quickly after the last opiod dose in an opiod tolerant individual. I ask because I am considering supplementing with Lope. Some say that using it just puts off the inevitable WD's and once it is discontinued you now have an additional ape to get rid of.

I have already put my case out there in this thread so people can see exactly what I have in the way of dosage and actual pills remaining. It just seems too good to be true that something bought at any store for 10 bucks could be part of the answer to this dilemma. If it were such a great med for withdrawal, why aren't any rehab centers that I know of using it? Again, please move this to the correct spot in the forum if I have gotten off topic.

 

[brighton]

^ Loperamide will not cause precipitated withdrawal. It will help with a lot of the physical symptoms, I've used it a bunch of times when I've been coming of opiates. Start at a low dose , maybe 6mg and work your way up slowly, 40mg is probably overkill.

 

[tricomb]

Don't worry milagro we will keep this thread open until you would like it closed, use this thread to post updates during your taper, and for any additional questions you may have.

Question, what are you asking about precipitated withdrawal for? To my knowledge, I thought you were not taking Buprenorphine?

 

[milagro]

Thank you tricomb. I know about PWD and buprenorphine but I wanted to know if the same reaction would result if I took loperamide. I have been trying to find the best, most comfortable way to get through this and it appears that loperamide has been used by many people to lessen opiate WD symptoms.

I just didn't want to try it and be sent into PWD's due to its strong mu-agonist properties. It has a long half life and I am still unsure of its binding affinity compared to supplements like bupe. Just trying to educate myself before doing something stupid.

I will try and update my progress. A lot of ex-opiate addicts have used loperamide with great success in limiting WD's which I found difficult to believe since it's sold at nearly every store (Immodium AD) for diarrhea and I had not heard of this property until recently.

 

[Mass08]

Hey man, GL with your taper!

Loperamide certainly will not cause PWD's. It is amazing for the runs during withdrawals. Also I believe I have read some people saying that they don't feel their meds as strong if they take Lope before their meds. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[tricomb]

Thank you tricomb. I know about PWD and buprenorphine but I wanted to know if the same reaction would result if I took loperamide. I have been trying to find the best, most comfortable way to get through this and it appears that loperamide has been used by many people to lessen opiate WD symptoms.

I just didn't want to try it and be sent into PWD's due to its strong mu-agonist properties. It has a long half life and I am still unsure of its binding affinity compared to supplements like bupe. Just trying to educate myself before doing something stupid.

I will try and update my progress. A lot of ex-opiate addicts have used loperamide with great success in limiting WD's which I found difficult to believe since it's sold at nearly every store (Immodium AD) for diarrhea and I had not heard of this property until recently.

I recommend (I don't usually do this) going to walmart because you can get a huge bottle for a fraction of the price as other stores.
I've never used loperamide personally, however I've head good and bad things about it, mostly good.

Substances that can induce precipitated withdrawals are mostly antagonists such as Naloxone, Naltrexone, etc or a partial agonist like Buprenorphine which acts as both but has a super strong binding affinity that rips other opioids straight off the receptors, which ain't pleasant. And I don't think that loperamide has a higher binding affinity than oxycodone but I really don't know.

 

[Znegative]

I think there's a theory that Loperamide has a very high binding affinity as many bupe users can take lope and achieve full effects from it.

IME, I've only used loperamide three times for withdrawals, and it does work-with physical and mental withdrawals. Just to be clear though, I've never kicked with it, I've just used it on days when I couldn't pick up or get my methadone. At 40mg of methadone I found that the lowest dose that seems to work for me was around 60mg. Loperamide takes about an hour to begin to kick in, and three hours to peak. Like suboxone and Methadone it is long acting, and most people need only dose once a day. Some are able to take loperamide instead of their opiate every other day.

There is a lot of debate over whether Lope gets you buzzed or not. I personally have never gotten stoned off of it, but it does improve your mental and emotional state. I often felt (as far as effects go), a body buzz similar to propyhexaphine (Darvon), a long with a calm sense of contentment. I think it's a really great alternatove to methadone and buprenorphine. It's OTC, long lasting, easy to taper gradually, and provides sufficient reliefe from withdrawal.

One thing to know however, is that while very little loperamide actually crosses the BBB, it still can cause physical Dependance like any other full/partial agonist, and from what I hear, Lope withdrawal is pretty drawn out nasty. If you are going to go the lope route, use it like you would buprenorphine or meth, taper as quickly as possible, and start off with low dosages so you don't begin with unreasonably high ammounts (Id aim with your tolerance for 30mg).

On a final note, good luck and keep us updated!

 

[tricomb]

^Interesting, thanks ZNeg I had no idea there was a school of thought regarding a high binding affinity for loperamide. I haven't used it for WD so I don't know much about this. I remember toothpastedog was pretty fond of loperamide.

 

[wrxya33]

Hey if you are starting this job tomorrow as in this Friday then this wont work but if its next Friday try my suggestion im about to make. Or if it is this Friday whenever you have 2 or more days where you can sit at home and do nothing really and withdrawal try my suggestion.

My suggestion is if you have 2 or more days of down time where you can withdrawal do it. My reasoning is if you go say 3 days into withdrawal cold turkey off 120mg of oxy a day it will drastically drop your tolerance. Id say after 3 days you might be able to feel "normal of say 60-80mg of oxy. Yes your tolerance will increase quickly if you let it by dosing any more then a dose to just get rid of withdrawal no high at all just withdrawal symptoms gone. This short partial withdrawal is a good way to start your taper because it will start you at a lower dose to begin with. Then after 2 days on 60-80mg drop another 10mg. Then another 2 days 10 more mgs less continue this until it starts to get pretty bad when dropping your dose then only drop it 5 mgs or even 2.5 mgs. Just try to continue to drop your dose every few days by any amount you can cut out. Also go as long as you can every day without dosing as well. Dont do 4x a day anymore stop that ASAP only 2 times a day. Once in the morning and then in the evening or bedtime if you feel decent enough which you should. Continue until your as low as you can go and spread the doses out as far as you can.
Once your down to 10-20mgs its going to be the hardest to cut down anymore but just try to take any amount out or only take your dose before work then nothing till the next morning before work. Basically continue to taper and extend time in between doses. The goal is to get your dose down to the 10-20mg point where you can probably deal with the cold turkey jump. Sure work will suck but it will be bearable and you should have no problem putting on a brave face to hide being sick while at work.
Good luck and basically you need to take a little of everyone's advice and make your own taper plan. Everyone is different and needs to taper at a different speed. Everyone has offered some good advice and i feel if you read on this sight and take into consideration everyone's ideas you should make it but the hard parts once you are past the withdrawal. Your pain will be back with a vengeance as well as the cravings. Quitting and withdrawing sucks but staying off is the really hard part. I wish you the best.

 

[tricomb]

Yeah you can drop in increments of 10mg and stay at the new low dose until you're stabilized and then proceed with the next 10mg drop. Slowly but surely, you will beat this.

 

[milagro]

I want to thank everyone for being so helpful and supportive. I have received more assistance here than with my primary care doctor who simply refuses to write prescriptions for opiods unless it a small amount for pain. The new laws in this and many other states have made it very difficult for most doctors to prescribe for their patients that need this type of medicine, but that is an entirely different subject and I will not go into that. Not now anyway. I feel fine at the moment. Two days at 90mg. Yes, I have felt better but this is entirely bearable so I felt I should write before I start feeling crappy. I am again, very appreciative of the help here at bluelight.

Wrx and tricomb, I do intend to begin significantly dropping beginning tomorrow, Saturday morning. Very good suggestion. I will have 2 full days to gauge where I am at, what my comfort zone is and how much I can continue to drop. It's also good to begin when there has been a night's rest and >12 hours since my last dose of oxy.

If anyone is interested, I will keep you updated on my progress. The thought of not having to worry about when my next refill is or performing the damn UA's that give me a feeling of being controlled and monitored makes me all that more determined to free myself from the hook.

Thanks again everyone

 

[tricomb]

I'm highly interested in your taper and then subsequent recovery.


Feel free to use this thread daily and keep us updated with everything. After you taper off completely, it may be helpful to you or others in some way to review your whole thread from start to finish just to get a sense of the progress you've made, and to keep you going.

With enough time and effort, I am sure we will get you off these drugs with considerably less pain and suffering. I would implore you to read this thread that I may have already posted.

 

[beengerman]

I have received more assistance here than with my primary care doctor..

stuff like this makes you realize how much a place like bluelight can help a person. i wish you all the luck in the world. you got this.

 

[tricomb]

Yeah man, the important thing to remember is that this is oxycodone. Your dosing is high, and no one is going to come here and call you a pussy because your addiction isn't as bad as someone else's. I think it's much more important to focus on how LUCKY you are that you don't have a worse addiction, and use this positive feeling to help you blast through this.

It's going to be much easier for you to taper off a hundred mg of oxycodone compared to say, 100mg of methadone.

There are really a lot of things working to your advantage here behind the scenes.