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☛ Official ☚ Adding Tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate

DiPT has been added to shrooms before and they did indeed turn out 4-HO-DiPT. No allusion to changing the levels of 4-HO-DMT though.

Mushrooms seem to be a wonder if they truly can take something like DET and turn them into 4-HO-DET or DiPT and turn it into 4-HO-DET.

I wonder how this would translate with something like, for example, a-ET?

Someone should do some experimentation and let us all know how it goes. I could definitely be bothered into growing shrooms if this truly works - DMT is truly easy access stuff and I have a few chemicals in mind for such experiments...
 
Its something I have considered when the opportunity was there, but I wouldn't have been able to do any quantitative or qualitative analysis of any sort.


I'd be interested in trying it, but I'd not want to end up with mushrooms that also contained psilocin.

Did these researchers that have worked on these projects fruit mushrooms? or did they just grow out some mycelium on agar? If you could use a decent concentration of starting compound in agar, and the fungus would convert all or most of it that would be much nicer.

Is the DMT in the fungus all from typtophan, or other sources too?
 
Gartz J., "Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe." J. Basic Microbiol. 1989;29(6):347-52.

This was listed as a ref in TiHKAL.
 
I just noticed the title is messed up could a mod please change it to: Adding tryptamines into Mushroom Substrate

I'm sure most of you have read the Shulgin article about this, if not I will quote it.

However there is a very interesting study that took place in Leipzig about 15 years ago. Jochen Gartz, a mushroom explorer whom I know quite well, has done some fascinating studies with Psilocybe species by raising them on solid media containing strange tryptamines that are alien to the mushroom. Apparently the enzymes that are responsible for the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin are indifferent to what it is they choose to 4-hydroxylate. He has taken things like DPT or DIPT and put them in the growth media and the fruiting bodies that came out contain 4-hydroxy-DPT or 4-hydroxy-DIPT instead of psilocin. In fact, he has a patent on the process. These active compounds are made by the mushroom so they really are natural and yet they never have been observed in nature. I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. This way you avoid a 10 step synthesis by growing a psychoactive mushroom that contains no illegal drug.
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With the whole thing being found here.

I was wondering what if I added 4-AcO-DMT (O-Acetylpsilocin, It is a prodrug for Psilocin) would that make 4,4-HO-AcO-DMT or would it just make potent mushrooms or nothing at all?

I have a half gram of 4-AcO-DMT and some rye grow bags. If I went about this would I have to add it before I inoculated them or when I added it to a casing and if so how much?

If this works, what happens if I added 2c-e?
 
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Changed the title. :)

I'm not sure what will work with that. I was reading a post somewhere by Shulgin himself who said that he thought 5-MeO-DMT in the subtrate would probably create 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT. So perhaps 4-AcO-DMT could do the same. However, perhaps it wouldn't because it's already altered at the 4th position. Hard to say, and I'm certainly not the one top be able to give an educated answer.
 
DrWhite said:
I was wondering what if I added 4-AcO-DMT (O-Acetylpsilocin, It is a prodrug for Psilocin) would that make 4,4-HO-AcO-DMT...
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It can not be done. There is only one bond available on the 4th (and 5th, 6th and 7th for that matter), so it is only possible to add one group there.

I wonder if adding bufotenine could produce 4,5-dihydroxy-DMT and if so, would it be interesting?

Does anyone know if adding tryptophan to the subtrate would boost the psilocybin content?
 
I was thinking about this yesterday, if one had DMT crystals, and put that into the substrate, would you make super high powered mushrooms ? SOmeone should try this, I will one day, but I do not possess any materials yet.
 
No actually that won't work. Adding DMT doesn't increase potency, apparently the mushroom mycelium can't efficiently utilize DMT as a precursor material for psilocin/psilocybin.

The only additive which has been succesfully used for this purpose was tryptamine hcl.
 
Really? I could have sworn that I read something from Shulgin discussing the addition of DMT....

It very well could have been tryptamine, though, maybe I misremembered.
 
Yeah, there was even a paper about it on shroomery, cba to dig it up though...

They compared tryptamine, tryptophan, NMT, DMT and maybe some others, added to mushroom substrate, and found out that only tryptamine in the hcl form was effective in increasing the potency of fruitbodies.

It is kinda odd though, that adding DET will produce 4-ho-DET... Maybe the mycelium has some enzymes similar to the MAO:s that chomp up DMT? But then why would tryptamine not be chomped? Odd creatures, mushrooms... I wonder if we'll ever truly understand them.
 
DrWhite said:
I was wondering what if I added 4-AcO-DMT (O-Acetylpsilocin, It is a prodrug for Psilocin) would that make 4,4-HO-AcO-DMT or would it just make potent mushrooms or nothing at all?

I have a half gram of 4-AcO-DMT and some rye grow bags. If I went about this would I have to add it before I inoculated them or when I added it to a casing and if so how much?

If this works, what happens if I added 2c-e?
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Quick chemistry:
psilocin.gif


At the 4-position, there is only one substitutable position. (4 bonds per carbon, 3 come from the aromatic ring) 4-AcO-DMT in, 4-HO-DMT out. Its likely that the enzymes in the mushroom assigned to attaching and removing the phosphate would hydrolyze the acetate in much the same way. If I remember correctly psilocin is thought to be a phosphate transporter for energy production.

If you want to make something interesting, try using melatonin or 5-HTP in your substrate. The mushrooms have enzymes that convert Tryptophan into psilocin. It would only make sense that you could end you could end up with a 4,5-Dihydroxy-DMT (from 5-HTP) or a 4-HO,5-MeO,N-acetyl,N-Methyl-Tryptamine (from melatonin). The chemicals could also poison the enzymes and prevent proper fruiting. (restricted Phosphate movement -> low energy production -> no fruiting body)

I seriously doubt that adding 2-CE would do much besides impregnate the mushrooms with 2C-E. I don't know much about how P. Cubensis handles tyrosine or phenylalanine but you may see the same types of modifications to 2Cs that you would to those two amino acids... if the mushroom uses the two for anything other than incorporating them into enzyme structure. If anything, you might get faulty enzymes with 2Cs where Phe and Tyr should be, ruining the proper alignment and conformation of said enzymes.
 
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If you want to make something interesting, try using melatonin or 5-HTP in your substrate.
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I believe all attempts to increase potency using tryptophan have failed so far, so 5-htp would be unlikely to be succesful. Then again, it might work, who knows.

Melatonin would very likely be hydrolyzed or metabolized into mexamine (5-meo-T) and thus would produce 4-ho-5-meo-DMT.
 
About MDMA: See comments on 2Cs.

@ dread: About your tryptophan comment...

AGURELL S; NILSSON LG
Biosynthesis of Psilocybin II. Incorporation of labelled tryptamine derivatives.
Acta.Chem.Scand. 22:1210-8 (1968) QD1.A325
The biosynthesis of psilocybin has been investigated by feeding labelled precursors to Psilocybe cubensis. The following specifically labelled compounds were synthesized: psilocin-3H, 4-hydroxytryptamine-14C, N,N-dimethyltryptamine-14C and -14C-3H, N-methyltryptamine-14C=3H and DL-Tryptophan-3H. A number of other indoles were labeled by acid catalyzed exchange in tritiated water. The experimental data suggest a sequence: tryptophan -> tryptamine -> N-methyltryptamine -> N,N-dimethyltryptamine -> psilocin -> psilocybin. The fungus can also by an alternative route convert 4-hydroxytryptamine to psilocybin. Large differences in the rate of absorption of different closely related precursors has been observed.

Adding tryptophan... according to this paper should increase potency some (marginally?)... It may be the mushies only make as much as they need, so adding a ton of precursor may not work. You may have to modify the genetics of the fungus to get it to overexpress and upregulate the psilocin pathway.

Adding 5-HTP as the major source of tryptophan would absolutely modify the product, but not increase the concentration of converted compounds.
 
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Xorkoth said:
I was reading a post somewhere by Shulgin himself who said that he thought 5-MeO-DMT in the subtrate would probably create 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT.
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I never believed that. I mean, OK, the fungus can 4-hydroxylize any unsubstituted tryptamine, but I cannot imagine that a 5-substituted tryptamine still fits in the enzyme that is responsible for this conversion.
 
I've read reports of people adding DPT(or some other simple tryptamine) to the substrate in order to manipulate the mushroom to synthesize 4-po-DPT/4-ho-DPT/4-ace-DPT/etc. instead of psilocybin/psilocin/psilacetin
etc. However I don't remember if this worked or not.
I do recall a thread here somewhere about someone adding certain simple tryptamines to substrates and forcing the mushrooms to yeild 4-ho-5-meo-DMT and possibly similar substances.

I'm interested in seeing the replies to come, as I don't know much about this topic myself. :)
Could you add MDMA (MDxx) to a substrate?!
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I think introducing a phenethylamine into the substrate wont do a thing.
 
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This is a very interesting topic. If my understanding of the chemistry behind this is correct, basic tryptamines such as DET of DPT should be hydrolized during the biosynthesis processes that would normally result in the production of psilocin, resulting in compounds that are not naturally found in psilocybe species such as 4-HO-DET. Does anyone know how the substitution of functional groups onto both the 4th and 5th carbons of the phenol group affect the stability of the tryptamine molecule, such as the 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT mentioned in Shulgin's article?
 
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