About to smoke DMT for the 1st time but I have some concerns about contraindications

[footwo]

Hi

Before I explain my concerns I do want to say that I've spent many hours trying to research this on various forums including bluelight. I always seem to end up at the same conclusion though which is basically "I' don't know". Apologies if the answer is out there but I honestly can't find it.

I'm taking Mirtazapine 30mg every night on prescription. I have taken shrooms whilst on this drug and noticed what many people say about the reduced effects due to mirtazapine being a 5-HT2A antagonist. Which is a shame because shrooms have made me feel happier than any antidepressant could but that's not the point.

I've been eager to try DMT for quite some time now and I want to give it a shot finally today however I am worried if there are any dangerous interactions between DMT and mirtazapine. I don't care about reduced effectiveness, I've come to terms with all that, I'm just worried if there is any danger of it killing me basically. I've read lots and lots of threads but none of them ever seem to come to a conclusion about any potential danger, the only thing I could find that gave an absolute directive was a thread here on bluelight specifically about combos that reads:

Hallucinogens (LSD/Acid, psilocybin/Shrooms, Tryptamines, 2-ct-2,DPT, DMT etc, Salvia) Hallucinogens seem to be MUCH stronger in combination with mirtazapine, so please be VERY CAREFUL! A dangerous interaction with shrooms has been observed in one person taking mirtazapine. Please avoid hallucinogens while taking mirtazapine or dose very carefully.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/108959-Antidepressants-and-Recreational-Drugs-(long!)

This thread seems to be a decade old though, and mirtazapine is a fairly new drug so I'm not sure if all that data is still valid today. So I'd basically like to know if anyone out there has been in the same boat and if there is any definitive information concering mixing these two substances.

For reference I have a 50mg hit of DMT ready to go in a machine, I've been putting it off for weeks because I really wanted to be sure about it.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Solipsis]

Some sources say that mirtazapine allows psychedelic effects, others say that they are even potentiated but IME a slight majority claims that psychedelic effects are blocked which is not surprising considering the 5HT2_A antagonism.
That is unsurprising if only we realize that depending on the dose of mirtazapine, the dose and type and potency of psychedelic, the idiosyncracies of people and other "extenuating circumstances" the interaction can vary as broadly as the above spectrum.

There was apparently an individual who took mushrooms on mirtazapine (possibly even compensating by taking an increased dose, I don't know but it is plausible enough) and had strong effects and trouble breathing. Considering what we know about mirtazapine's pharmacological profile and especially about psychedelic tryptamines, there should theoretically not be any threat to functions of the autonomic nervous system such as breathing and heart beating - basically things keeping you alive. Best I can come up with is adverse effects of alpha vs beta adrenoceptors but even then it is really a stretch.
I propose that this person had a panic attack (which I know from experience can be caused or exacerbated by tryptamines with additional body weirdness from funky drug combinations or pharmaceutical interactions) which is typically associated with such things as hyperventilation including the feeling as if one has trouble breathing though in reality vital signs are fine. I think that is observed frequently with psychedelic freakouts: people going to the ER thinking they are dying only to find that their vitals are okay and if anything there are other complications - happened in my case.

I am personally on mirtazapine - though 7,5 mg not 30 - and have only tried psychedelics twice on it. One time was a meager dose of LSD that did not produce psychedelia but it apparently did worsen anxiety that I was already dealing with a little bit. The other time was with 5-MeO-DMT which compared to DMT is AFAIK less safe (for example MAOIs with 5-MeO-DMT is dangerous while with DMT it is not). I should point out that I was also taking dissociatives which are known for easing and numbing bodily sensations including discomfort and perhaps bodily weirdness arising from the combination I took.

Normally I try to make a habit of NOT presenting a few or singular experience(s) as evidence because of the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" adagium, but here I do it anyway with some support of theory.

However be careful since you are taking a more considerable dose of mirtazapine than I, and dissociatives may have made me ignorant to signs that would be cause for concern.

 

[footwo]

Thanks for the excellent response. My gut tells me it should be fine (in terms of dangerous effects not the trip). I've done plenty of searching and reading and not seen any occurrences of lethal indications. I'm not taking anything else, other than cannabis, and I doubt I'll breakthrough on the first attempt anyway but I was a bit concerned about the combination given that mirtazapine is not an SSRI or a MAOI but some weird newish thing I don't fully understand.

 

[Solipsis]

Sure any time. It's a shame you have a 50 mg hit ready because it would as a rule be better to slowly work your way up to test the waters. 25-30 mg first if lower doses only generate confusion and anxiety for you.

Mirtazapine is not newish, it's ultra-oldish
But yes it's mechanism of action is quite complex if that's what you mean. A type of pharmacological slut even.

I'm not sure if you failing to understand how it works is an invitation to explain it or if it is all just the same to you. I'd be happy to, although there are many places where it is explained, granted it is not always explained in quasi layman terms.

 

[footwo]

I've researched it since I've been on it, I started out on sertraline which as you probably know is an SSRI and I hated it. Made me feel like shit and so I asked to switch, then the doctor offered me the choice of mirtazapine or something else I can't remember. I knew already at that point that mirtazapine was a trip killer and I wasn't really wanting to go on it but I thought my mental health at the time was more important.

TBH I don't understand it much only that it has somewhat milder side effects than other types of antidepressant (as long as you consider freaking eating everything in the house due to a voracious appetite, mild). However I'm thinking of stopping taking it as I feel like I'm not getting any benefit from it and I would like to continue my quest into psychedelics which it effectively put a stop to at the start of the year. It also leaves me somewhat confused, something I've noticed recently after the dose was upped. I often flub my words or get brain lock and cant articulate what I mean, I've heard from a friend also on mirtazapine that he gets that too.

I am eager to push on with psychedelics as they have taught me so much already, however I never take first times with any substance lightly and always like to check the facts. I suppose it's because I don't know enough about brain chemistry, I focused too much on computer nerdism which I now regret because I've hit a point in my life where nature is the thing I would like to connect with but I'm not qualified in that regard

 

[Solipsis]

Sometimes when nerding hard on subjects that are all ultimately nature, I am just perplexed and via a sort of transcendental moment I suddenly stop thinking about it anymore and start feeling it all. Well at least that's the best I can describe it anyway.

It's good that you are apprehensive and careful, that is what harm reduction (fuck I typed harm reflux

) is all about...

I was on 15 mg but it got me insomnia and RLS type stuff and immense brain fog. 7,5 mg helps a bit and I get reduced side-effects to make it reasonable but I feel like I can do better. I want to propose to try going on Memantine but I fear that my shrink won't go for it.

 

[johannes kreisler]

...just fyi: if you smoke 50mg for your first time and you smoke them correctly chances are that you will never touch dmt again. doses above 35mg are stronger than you could ever imagine a psychoactive to be. mitrazapine aside. my advise would be 15 -> 35 (which is enough for many to get full effects).

 

[footwo]

...just fyi: if you smoke 50mg for your first time and you smoke them correctly chances are that you will never touch dmt again. doses above 35mg are stronger than you could ever imagine a psychoactive to be. mitrazapine aside. my advise would be 15 -> 35 (which is enough for many to get full effects).

Wow thanks for the warning. The problem is I have a machine pre packed with a 50mg hit, is it all or nothing or can I reduce the dose in some manner?

 

[Solipsis]

When you heat the stem with the mesh or coil the DMT gradually evaporates and disperses into the bottle's room. It would be a waste of DMT to evaporate all and inhale half since it would just go and stick to the sides of the bottle... but you can try to evaporate only part. Problem is, there is not really a way of telling the progress.

 

[tired of crap]

...just fyi: if you smoke 50mg for your first time and you smoke them correctly chances are that you will never touch dmt again. doses above 35mg are stronger than you could ever imagine a psychoactive to be. mitrazapine aside. my advise would be 15 -> 35 (which is enough for many to get full effects).

Its true. Ill spare you the story but it is oh so true. (Though fear not, as "Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration".)

The problem is I have a machine pre packed with a 50mg hit, is it all or nothing or can I reduce the dose in some manner?

Now here is an idea. You say its pre-packed machine; presumably the dmt is loaded onto a steel (or preferably a copper) scrubber .. which is hopefully removed of any lubricants (for example I believe Choreboy scrubbers (+98% copper, IIRC) are produced using mineral oil as a lubricant which can be removed via an acetone soak or light torching before use). I don't see why you couldnt remove the scrubber and soak it in acetone (could do two soaks though one should be good, as DMT is very soluble in acetone) to collect all your DMT, then evaporate. Theoretically you should have 50 mg of DMT after evaporation and can divide at your leisure.

Unfortunately as far as interactions with Mirtazapine go, I have no clue, sorry.

Best of luck and happy travels.
TOC

 

[jason7]

I've never tried DMT but an interesting thing I read is that it produces no tolerance effect. That's pretty amazing if true.

 

[johannes kreisler]

Now here is an idea. You say its pre-packed machine; presumably the dmt is loaded onto a steel (or preferably a copper) scrubber .. which is hopefully removed of any lubricants (for example I believe Choreboy scrubbers (+98% copper, IIRC) are produced using mineral oil as a lubricant which can be removed via an acetone soak or light torching before use). I don't see why you couldnt remove the scrubber and soak it in acetone (could do two soaks though one should be good, as DMT is very soluble in acetone) to collect all your DMT, then evaporate. Theoretically you should have 50 mg of DMT after evaporation and can divide at your leisure.

good idea. I'd go for it footwo! ...I've probably had hundreds of encounters with DMT ranging from small puffs to instant-ego-death-doses but even then I'd approach a dose higher than 30mg with utmost respect. as in: a few hours of preparation, contemplation, some kind of ritual etc. tail end of another psychoactive (preferably sth empathogenic and/or grounding) trip is best practice ime. today my usual dose for a serious shot is below 40mg - it's sufficient for me.
50mg is very, very serious.

if you wanna go pro, get yourself at least 500mg and start with 5 - 10 - 15. get to now the substance really, really well. then aim higher. adding a MAOi improves the whole enterprise immensely.

DMT can be a lifelong ally or it can be instant PTSD. it's worth investing in the former..

-

@jason: there is some tolerance. in longer (MAOi-enhanced) sessions I always end up scooping liberal amounts of dmt in the machine. there is a point where you feel like you've got "in tune" with the dmt mindset then it can become quite hedonistic and actually more like an empathogen than a psychedelic. you could say it's tolerance but it's also a change in character. for me hyperspace is also quite saturating, exhausting also, don't need to be there for too long - that might be a confounding factor..
I guess the tolerance develops relatively slowly and can be "cheated" by the rapid onset. I'm no expert on how that works on the neurochemistry-level though...

 

[psy997]

...just fyi: if you smoke 50mg for your first time and you smoke them correctly chances are that you will never touch dmt again. doses above 35mg are stronger than you could ever imagine a psychoactive to be. mitrazapine aside. my advise would be 15 -> 35 (which is enough for many to get full effects).

Definitely not. This reminds me of a wive's tale or some bullshit drug myth like turning into a glass of orange juice.

I did 50mg of DMT the first time I ever did it, reading that to be a good breakthrough dose and had an AMAZING time. Same as my best friend who was with me that night.

Also, DMT was my first psychedelic, and drug experienced, after weed and alcohol.

It was strong as hell, yes. I flew through galaxies until I was in some purplish place with an entity. It was insane. But I loved it, I felt at home, comfortable, at ease.

As long as you're not a control freak, and not completely associated with your thoughts, 50mg is not too much.

 

[johannes kreisler]

^better safe than sorry.
if the initial shock does not instantly rip your ego apart and one 'false thought' (like: "oh. I think I'm am dying.") slips in, an experience like that can spin into existential crisis territory with anxious ego dissolution, seizures etc. trauma, derealization, spiritual crisis, weeks of integration...part of the game...
and keep in mind that as long as we don't know the interaction of mitrazapine and dmt we should calculate with potentiating effects...and take into account that the simple fact of this insecurity adds a risk factor.

 

[footwo]

Thanks for all the responses guys, I really appreciate the discussion. I've realised I've probably dived in too deep here with such a high dose, and whilst I understand where psy997 is coming from, everything effects people differently, I think I'd rather start off with a smaller dose.

I don't see why you couldnt remove the scrubber and soak it in acetone (could do two soaks though one should be good, as DMT is very soluble in acetone) to collect all your DMT, then evaporate. Theoretically you should have 50 mg of DMT after evaporation and can divide at your leisure.

I don't think I know enough about chemistry to do this but I'll look in to it. In the meantime I might just do as suggested and get hold of a batch that I can measure out myself and start off with a lower dose.