Abortion ?

[Erikmen]

As i have stated in a thread that has veered into the same topic at the moment - the human body terminates a great percentage of pregnancies anyway.

As far as my responsibility goes, that is to support any woman i am intimately involved with (one way or another) - and to any child (note: child not unborn foetus) that i happen to concieve.

Outside of that, abortions happen - it's not something to celebrate, but i am thankful to live in a country that allows women the choice to do have these sorts of procedures carried out safely, and not by backyard abortionists and the like.

Indeed.
Whether you agree with it or not. People will manage to do it anyways - in case it's prohibited in your country.
Unfortunately politicians want votes and don't care if more deaths and/or health issues increase by not doing it properly.

 

[stu411]

This is gibberish.

Bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right. .

This is where the argument is flawed, You are Defining Human with Law , if you are going to bring HUMAN rights into this You Should state when you feel a Life is Classed as Human, I can argue the "Moment of Conception Point" and cut to the chase if you want?

 

[apatheist]

This is where the argument is flawed, You are Defining Human with Law , if you are going to bring HUMAN rights into this You Should state when you feel a Life is Classed as Human, I can argue the "Moment of Conception Point" and cut to the chase if you want?

It's human by definition before conception. Human sperm and eggs are human. A tumor is human. It's not relevant.

 

[stu411]

Hey, that's actually a cool view point , So let me explain a little more about this autonomy loop hole, as it were,

First off , you would surely agree a tumor has no rights ? yeah so lets not try and define it AS human, lets say its a bit of a Human.

Anyway, your open mind , I believe can accept a Human life starts at the point of conception, so from then on, there are 2 humans involved, and with body autonomy Using the
Human rights as a argument, -- A Human right is we talk here is a Law created buy Man, But it is Flawed as it does not include the 2nd human, Your welcome to Try pen down some rights for our new human, you never know, one day it might become Law


ya get me?,

 

[spacejunk]

Oh yeah...!
Patronising lectures from random internet guy changed my whole belief system with his mindblowing rhetorical mastery.

 

[stu411]

Oh yeah...!
Patronising lectures from random internet guy changed my whole belief system with his mindblowing rhetorical mastery.

Hey come on, human extinction is a tricky one for me to take seriously

what you think of that song. I had to edit my post n Drag you out the pits of hell when I seen that last bit,





Oh god they autonomy ppl make me nervous , he,s either off to get backup , or started flopping around in the floor,,

 

[spacejunk]

Pits of hell, eh?
I love the butthole surfers. I didnt realise people took them literally. That's funny, i'm sure Gibby eould be tickled.

 

[apatheist]

Anyway, your open mind , I believe can accept a Human life starts at the point of conception, so from then on, there are 2 humans involved, and with body autonomy Using the Human rights as a argument, -- A Human right is we talk here is a Law created buy Man, But it is Flawed as it does not include the 2nd human, Your welcome to Try pen down some rights for our new human, you never know, one day it might become Law

Let's say you have a sibling in kidney failure. Your kidneys are a match. Can you be ethically compelled to donate one? They're gonna die, after all, and you'd probably just have a bearable reduction to your quality of life. Probably. People don't *usually* die on the operating table, so let's just round that down to zero, much like how people *usually* don't die in childbirth.

Oh god they autonomy ppl make me nervous , he,s either off to get backup , or started flopping around in the floor,,

I'm not a he - I take "she" or "they" pronouns, please. And I know this may come as a surprise, but I do have other things to do besides posting here.

 

[stu411]

. good god,, autonomy person. hold up, while I go consulate my hand book on how to talk to you people. 1 min

You see, the arguments based on Giving and Receiving , The Argument includes . A person giving an actual part of their body away.. Also the Argument does not involve consciously deciding to take life.. The life in your argument naturally dies,,


infact the only reason that argument works , is because it confuses people , when they first hear it.,

believe me. your stupid Kidney failed sibling , is going to die anyway.. might as well just pull the plug, and strangle him with the chord.. now think for gods sake

oh .. tell me more about this he / she . stuff. .. Do you think removing Gender identification of humans a good idea.?

so, if I said ," im a boy" that would classed as sexism ?

cheers

 

[apatheist]

. good god,, autonomy person. hold up, while I go consulate my hand book on how to talk to you people. 1 min

You see, the arguments based on Giving and Receiving , The Argument includes . A person giving an actual part of their body away.. Also the Argument does not involve consciously deciding to take life.. The life in your argument naturally dies,,


infact the only reason that argument works , is because it confuses people , when they first hear it.,

believe me. your stupid Kidney failed sibling , is going to die anyway.. might as well just pull the plug, and strangle him with the chord.. now think for gods sake

oh .. tell me more about this he / she . stuff. .. Do you think removing Gender identification of humans a good idea.?

so, if I said ," im a boy" that would classed as sexism ?

cheers

The parallel is that if you force someone to carry a pregnancy to term you are compelling them to use their body in a way to which they have not consented. It's also not a given that someone in kidney failure is going to die. And I'm really not sure how you can say you should just pull the plug in that case, but then turn around and say it's not okay to expel an embryo or fetus that is residing inside someone else's body. It's not consistent. Even if you can make a case that a fetus is entitled to all the same rights as a born person, you can't prohibit abortion without according fetuses MORE rights than the persons carrying them.

Specifying which pronouns I prefer is hardly the same as saying everybody should be gender neutral, nor is it sexist. I'm not interested in telling anyone else what their gender ought to be.

You're really not making a lot of sense here, and I'm not sure it's worth my while to engage further.

 

[stu411]

WARNING : INHUMAN VEIW POINT BASED ON GREED AND SELF SUPERIORITY

BODY AUTONOMY AFTERMATH AHEAD YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

. , you can't prohibit abortion without according fetuses MORE rights than the persons carrying them.

.

It would been a lot quicker just to start with this,, This is what it all pivots on,


It means , the mother "Gives up" more than the "Foetus" .. its one of the most emotional removed arguments ever conceived in all mankind.. but it is a extremely good Argument ,it holds legal rights for both mother and foetus also it places a type of monetary value on how much the mother and foetus gives up

It must of been conceived by a lawyer , and raises bizarre possibilities of mothers being able to sue their babys or certainly the father, this is the first stage to setting a "price" on pregnancy , as a right to kill argument it is entirely flawed, but still needs disproved on a court room level, so here goes,


Firstly it states the pregnancy cant be achieved without the foetus having more rights than the mother, so lets just give the foetus the same rights as the mother at the moment

ORDER.. . Mother has been awarded Right to terminate foetus .. ORDER.. Foetus has been awarded right to Terminate mother

Well there's the first Flaw . And this is how morally retarded the thought is

The foetus terminating the mother is a viable comparison and workable concept.. BioTec artificial wombs are a reality today, the Foetus does not need the mother, and with Equal rights all it needs is a voice.. and your listening to one .. With assignation of foetal rights mothers could be subject to health tests , and if found unfit to carry the foetus, a termination of the mother could take place.. this would happen like this,, Foetal law officers and medical staff, with the sanctioned use of force, will gain control of mothers body, if the foetus is to young for artificial incubation, then the mother would be rendered brain dead and her body sustained as long as needed. after baby is removed the mothers body sold according to current market values, all revenue generated from the mothers body is put into a trust fund for junior ..

if you have a problem relating this to mothers right to terminate, go watch some videos on abortions and what happens to the bodys



next flaw


lets Explore what the mother gives up.... She gives up things like Sports activities , Heavy lifting , finance her personal comfort , she gives up a large amount,,

Lets Explore what baby gives up,----- it gives its life up


How long does mother give things up for .. 9 months -- she can be reimbursed financially for her losses , and baby can have a new mum,

How long does baby give things up.... forever... hmmm


Also the whole argument is based on giving things up to be a negative concept, which is wrong..
it leaves out any possible gains the mother gets from pregnancy,, which can be vast..


and in all that I haven't mentioned 1 single emotion or moral . just unbelievable how life can be viewed like this..

apatheist, Do you have any idea what your promoting here ? Removing any Gain from the act of Giving is insane,


IF THERE WAS NO GAIN IN GIVING , WHY WOULD WE EVEN TALK TO PEOPLE

 

[nekointheclouds]

Do you know how many children are in adoption homes waiting to be adopted? Or in foster families that can sometimes be abusive and threatening? Do you know how many kids never get adopted and evetually age out of state care and are left with no personal ties, minimal education and probably no money only to end up homeless? It a whole fucking lot. You need to research adoption rates vs. the amount of children currently up for adoption and the conditions those children face.

Now imagine all the women who would have abortions start caring the child to term and giving them up for adoption? There are not enough state approved couples looking to adopt children to ever adopt even a fraction of the children that would be up for adoption.

 

[apatheist]

You have a lot of assumptions and unsupported assertions there, stu411.

Do YOU have any idea what pregnancy and childrearing are like, bub? I do. I have two daughters and I am pro-choice as much for their sake as anything else. Pregnancy has permanent consequences, up to and including death, as well such fun things as incontinence, abdominal diastasis, rectovaginal fistula, dental problems, episiotomy complications, and more.

I don't need to watch abortion videos. I know very well what happens in an abortion - with the medication type, you'd be hard pressed to distinguish it from normal menstruation, actually. THERE IS NO BABY. There is an embryo and it's maybe the size of a dime. It does not have consciousness, it is not sentient, it does not lose anything because it is no more than a potential.

I have depression and anxiety that are heavily affected by hormones. Being pregnant means I lose my mind, and it also means I have a significantly narrower selection of safe medications for it. I can't just take nine months out of my life. I have people depending on me. This is a big part of why I'm on an extremely reliable form of birth control (which also moderates my cycle and thus helps my mental health), but I would get an abortion in a hot minute if it failed and I would have no regrets.

I'm not sure where you're getting the nonsense about artificial wombs being a reality. We're definitely not there yet.

Your views on women are crystal fucking clear with your insane rambling about killing women who don't fit your standard for motherhood.

I don't even know what you're talking about with the "no gain in giving" nonsense. Of course there is gain in giving life. That doesn't mean it ought to be mandated.

 

[stu411]

Editing in , sorry about that, I don't want mums to be chopped up,, i do want how ever the creator of that view point chopped up,
and i also want you to come back for Round 2. cause that was very thought inspiring,


just realized what so wrong about it..


------The Gift of Life----- Is Sentenced to Death----

It accepts the most precious Gift we can ever Give..
...Then expects to be paid for receiving it..


-----its demanding a foetus to pay a debt---

-----MOTHER CHARGES FETOUS RENT-----
-----MOTHER EVICTS FETOUS FOR NON PAYMENT---



thanks tho apatheist, its given me a lot to think about. cheers

 

[spacejunk]

WARNING : INHUMAN VEIW POINT BASED ON GREED AND SELF SUPERIORITY

Self awareness alert!

IF THERE WAS NO GAIN IN GIVING , WHY WOULD WE EVEN TALK TO PEOPLE

You tell us...
What are you trying to achieve with this thread? You're not going to change anyone's opinion that doesn't agree with you, by attempting to ridicule their views.

 

[stu411]

Do you know how many children are in adoption homes waiting to be adopted? Or in foster families that can sometimes be abusive and threatening? Do you know how many kids never get adopted and evetually age out of state care and are left with no personal ties, minimal education and probably no money only to end up homeless? It a whole fucking lot. You need to research adoption rates vs. the amount of children currently up for adoption and the conditions those children face.

Now imagine all the women who would have abortions start caring the child to term and giving them up for adoption? There are not enough state approved couples looking to adopt children to ever adopt even a fraction of the children that would be up for adoption.

This type is of , we have a massive problem here, and if we stop aborting it will get worse attitude, isn't attempting to solve anything , this is a type of problem that with enough resources and good management can be solved, im not suggesting any instant fixes , I am suggesting a well understood plan of abortion reduction, in line with relative social needs. just saying problem after problem isn't really heading in any direction, im quite sure if there was any magic wands getting passed round, apart from using one to make me disappear. you would have lots of Great ideas to reduce abortion, till eventual phase out

 

[stu411]

Self awareness alert!

You tell us...
What are you trying to achieve with this thread? You're not going to change anyone's opinion that doesn't agree with you, by attempting to ridicule their views.

Back of, That's The body autonomy view, its hideous , and people obviously don't understand it.. it needs to be expressed for what it is.. so it just has been

I do have a personal objective.. Im understanding just how solid my believe is , and im interested in others believe for various different reasons

 

[stu411]

Edit this in.. listen Apath. I don't feel better than you in anyway, and i certainly don't blame you for anything , and when i view as a female then if anything i feel your better than me. and that's that, also thanks for sharing, ive read it 10 times, maybe 5

You have a lot of assumptions and unsupported assertions there, stu411.

Do YOU have any idea what pregnancy and childrearing are like, bub? I do. I have two daughters and I am pro-choice as much for their sake as anything else. Pregnancy has permanent consequences, up to and including death, as well such fun things as incontinence, abdominal diastasis, rectovaginal fistula, dental problems, episiotomy complications, and more.

I don't need to watch abortion videos. I know very well what happens in an abortion - with the medication type, you'd be hard pressed to distinguish it from normal menstruation, actually. THERE IS NO BABY. There is an embryo and it's maybe the size of a dime. It does not have consciousness, it is not sentient, it does not lose anything because it is no more than a potential.

I have depression and anxiety that are heavily affected by hormones. Being pregnant means I lose my mind, and it also means I have a significantly narrower selection of safe medications for it. I can't just take nine months out of my life. I have people depending on me. This is a big part of why I'm on an extremely reliable form of birth control (which also moderates my cycle and thus helps my mental health), but I would get an abortion in a hot minute if it failed and I would have no regrets.

I'm not sure where you're getting the nonsense about artificial wombs being a reality. We're definitely not there yet.

Your views on women are crystal fucking clear with your insane rambling about killing women who don't fit your standard for motherhood.

I don't even know what you're talking about with the "no gain in giving" nonsense. Of course there is gain in giving life. That doesn't mean it ought to be mandated.

im not gona forget you for a while.. I knew as soon as I seen body bloody autonomy there was gona be trouble.. the rambling of killing mothers is generated buy the ramblings of Equal rights to mother and foetus that you brought to the table,, so theres your equal rights plain and simple..


the no gain in giving in body autonomy, The mother Gives stuff up.... but the fetus Can not.. . its disgusting.. and the view portrays women like they expect the fetus to pay up or die,,

spreading that message needs to stop , Olso that was possibly the first semi real time attempt to discredit it , it holds a lot of power and i still need to fully understand it, it comes in multiple layers , Each with a seprate attack , that's why we needed so many posts to resolve it ,

And what ever else ya got going on im sure you would have great ideas on how to fix the world, like seriously, i would love to here them ,what are they?

 

[spacejunk]

This seems like Lounge material.

 

[Wraiven]

I struggle with these questions. I am two sided on it for various reasons. Such as, if some low life rapes a woman, why should he be allowed to spread his seed? Why should he be allowed to spread his bad genes? At the same time, why is it the baby's fault?

I struggle with it because when you have the MORNING AFTER PILL....what excuse does any woman have to abort a child after even a week?

Why are people allowed to treat sex like it's just a thing to do and when they get pregnant, abort the baby? Make the baby pay for Mom and Dad's bad behavior? Wow, thanks Mom and Dad...

And then you have babies who are going to be born severely retarded. I for one would want my parents to abort me if I were to end up like that. But then again, you take away the childs choice to live....nothing we do seems fair. Nothing we do seems right. Like that woman who had a child that was born without a brain. Say what? WHY!?!? So as you can see, I am completely torn with the subject. Which is why I never say either way if it is okay or if it is not. I can't even make up my own mind more less push my opinion on somebody else.