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AA /NA meetings make me nuts
- Thread starter jake99
- Start date
thehappymutant
Bluelighter
I've been to my share of AAs, and my cousin's really into the 12 steps... but she is kind of the AA archetype IMO: Always needing to belong somewhere, to relate to/believe in something, and always needing to feel like she matters/is important.
xxkcxx
Bluelighter
Most people think that.
It is usually because when you are in the hell that is addiction, you cannot even picture what happiness is like or that it is possible.
Psychedelic Jay
Bluelighter
Are you one of those people from AA who act awkward?
I know a lot of people whe constantly preach what they read in the bible and refer it to them being sober.
It just irks my nerves to hear this over and over again in a general conversation.
I know a lot of people whe constantly preach what they read in the bible and refer it to them being sober.
It just irks my nerves to hear this over and over again in a general conversation.
I feel like regardless of wat "the book" says, you aint really "doing NA" if all you do is sit home and read the book. you gotta go to meetings. and at meetings, you get a very different story.
yea, If the book says it, then technically thats wat NA/aa says--But, the reality of the situation, dont follow the book, becuz when you go to meetings, everywhere, the shit that people is saying here about the negative opinions of MMT/etc, is wat the groups say. The book , maybe they aint following it. But, if the entire orginazation is echoing this "if you on mmt you aint clean" theory, then its impossioble to escape it. I understand wat you saying, and becuz im a objective person i dont think its cool to ignore the good sides of somethin just becuz u want it to fit ur notion of how u think it is. But it aint that I am ignoring that the book claims there aint no opinion on MMT. I am jus sayin that all these people posting here is frmo all over the country, and we all experienced the same rejection and kind of evil-eye looks when we said our feeligns about MMT/etc , and that you cant ignore the fact that this is the reality of the opinions u face when u go to meetings. Knowing that they are actin outta pocket, and the book supports us makin our own choices about wats right for us, thats cool. But, how u suppose to just ignore the shit these ppl say about ur choices when u face the rooms of ppl in the meetings?
I dont care wat the book says, becuz aparently then people at the meetings aint goin by the book, becuz I been to lots of meetings all over the place, different groups of people, old young white black poor rich in north and south jersey and all over, and everywhere I go, its always teh same thing, that MMT and sub is just "crutches" and "excuses."
Do u get wat Im saying? I hope its gettin thru cuz its hard to explain. Just that it seems that the NA has departed from the book, and has took a official stance on MMT, becuz look at the post OverDone quoted. shit girl, Its NA LITERATURE that SPECIFICALLY says that a person on MMT is considered to be "STILL USING." its official NA literature and they are adressin this issue, and they explicitly say the feelings on MMT that they have, and i dont feel like that is right but REGARDLESS--THAT is how the na/aa org. Is working today, and that is the feelings we encountering when we go to meetings. so its hard to feel like the book is right when everything you get hit with at a meeting is that u aint 'really clean" and need to get off mmt asap and all that. It feels mad disrespectful to me, i dont tell other ppl wat to do but they really preach that shit.
So when i say this shit it aint that i am only focusing ont he bad and purposely ignoring the good. just that the theory of wat the book tells you, and the reality and practice of how the book is taught in meetings, its two very different things.
Obviously they DO have opinions, and even if the book says they dont, all the people of the orginazation is apparently ignoring that or some shit, becuz its totally obvious to anybody that goes to meetings that the org. DOES have a negative view of ppl on MMT and so on.
I aint sayin YOU wrong or w/ever, but im just saying, you know how things is different in theory and in practice?
This is one of these things where you can say wat the book says all u want, but the fact that at 99% of all meetings u can go to the ppl there take a negative view of MMT and similar shit, is tellin a much different story than the shit u sayin. and u know u my girl so i aint like, tryna say u wrong or watever. Just that its unfortunate, becuz I also been told that supposedly the orginazation dont take no stand on that type of thing. But they do. The people in the org. do, and they make that clear, and its mad confusing to hear such contradictions when u go to a meeting.
Also, Its weird that u said that AA has been more accepting than NA to u--Out here its the opposite. i would never dream of set foot in a AA meeting--the ppl there is all mad prejudice against "junkies" and all have the "at least I aint a junkie" thing goin on. its weird cuz the literature says we all teh same regardles of the drug we used and all that shit. But real talk, they shun drug addicts on some serious shit. And its never Hi I am so and so and Im a addict. the AA dudes always say, im a ALCOHOLIC. Like somehow its different. I thoght the whole idea is we all addicts. But they make a point to diferentiate between addict and alcoholic, even in the way they introduce themselves.
I know that also goes against the general teachings of "the book" and all taht but just pointin out to you how different it is in practice than it is in theory the way its wrote in the book.
Of course shit is all different everywhere but im just sayin it aint like I only go to one meeting, u know?
Anyways, i also wanted to agree w/u, I am a addict, and never had no problems with alcohol. Ive done lots of other drugs. smoked crack, sniffed coke , amphetamines, meth, e pills, benzos....And it was only dope and opiates i ever loved. I can do any other drug recreationally without overdoing it, or even WANTING to. It aint like i can "control" the other drugs. Its that i dont even need to control them-i aint got no desire to even use them but if i do on a rare occasion, there aint even the slightest urge to overdo it. I always been very much able to use shit recreationally and occasionally, except for the opiates. No drinkin problem. I dont got a problem havin juts one drink. I actually usually dont even have one. i dont like drinkin much. But when I do, its another example of perfect moderation.
I dont like that whole "if you addicted, you addicted, and you cant do ANY drug cuz youll end up in the same place" bullshit. It just AINT true, at all. period. for me, and for lots of ppl i know. Maybe for some folks it is, I bet it prolly is like that for some ppl. But im jus sayin--I have a family where 3 outta the 4 grandparents was alcoholics. I got a cousin whose a heroin addict, her father smokes crack and drinks too much, i got another alcoholic cousin, and all the uncles and aunts and cousins and extended family got a nice collection of addictions and mental illnesses in em. so i definately got the genetics for "addictive personality" or w.ever. But, Iunno. Shit other than opiates just dont do me. That whole "addiction is addiction, and when you a addict, you will over do any and every drug, it aint specific to just one drug, and so if yuo are a heroin addict, dont even think that you can drink, becuz you will end up doing just as bad shit and developing a problem with alcohol too, cuz you are a addict."
you might get the idea that I hate NA from my posts. But I dont. I go to meetings every week. I really enjoy just talkin with people and meetin cool folks, cuz within all the bullshit is some cool ass and down to earth ppl. Ive met alot of good ppls that way. But sometimes I just cant take it. the people I like, I like. the people spoutin off the shit like the girl who didnt want pain meds in surgery, and the people that cosigned her and tried convincing her that it was a horrible idea to accept prescribed meds and tell her that she should suffer in pain and pretty much reject modern technology and medicine, make me mad as hell. The absolluteist nature of the program , I just cant get wit. Addiction aint nothing but a gray area, and NA is black and white to the core.
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Dopamine_Cowboy
Bluelighter
Really? I've read studies that suggest the success rate for 12-step programs is less than 10%.
Most people who go clean do it without the dogma of NA/AA/CA etc. That's not to say they all go it alone, but 12-step programs aren't as successful as you might think.
It's also mighty presumptuous of you to claim that most critics of 12-step programs aren't having any success staying clean or reducing their drug use. Maybe mind reading can be introduced as the 13th step?
I personally know people who have gone from being physically addicted to heroin back to chipping occasionally. I'm one of them.
Statistics and the DSM say this or that.....and if you BELIEVE that it's impossible for you to use drugs responsibly it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
As I address issues in my life that I avoided when I was using daily, hardcore fiending is increasingly becoming a non-issue. Sure I get cravings and i still face many challenges but I'm not using my DsOC to escape reality on a constant basis, so the COMPULSION to use is very much reduced.
I gave heroin and cocaine the power to control my life, and now I am taking that power back.
Cane2theLeft
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 12,673
So you're basic approach to this issue is "I don't care what studies, statistics and any formal method on quantification says, my experience trumps it all!"
No one is claiming 12 steps to be the only way and NO DRUG TREATMENT is very effective because of the nature of addiction... but its true that most people who truly become addicts, can not return to chipping and that most who try find it unsustainable.
xxkcxx
Bluelighter
The success rate is lower than 10%, actually. I believe it is around 3%. But statistics are very misleading when you consider the number of people who come in and don't ACTUALLY work the program. People who come just to get their sheet signed, never get a sponsor, never work a step, etc.
Also, my quote was "most of you complaining," I was referring specifically to the people in this thread, who I know are not clean based on their posts--I'm not reading anyone's mind supernaturally.
Good for you for getting out of the cycle addiction. Most people cannot do that, however, and it would be very detrimental for anyone to recommend it as the best option.
Also, my quote was "most of you complaining," I was referring specifically to the people in this thread, who I know are not clean based on their posts--I'm not reading anyone's mind supernaturally.
Good for you for getting out of the cycle addiction. Most people cannot do that, however, and it would be very detrimental for anyone to recommend it as the best option.
Cane2theLeft
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 12,673
Also, @dopamine
Its admirable that you've been able to control your use and I'm not claiming that NO ONE can do that, but if will power were sufficient for most addicts, we wouldn't have nearly as many!
I truly hope you don't believe that for most true addicts its simply a matter of 'taking the power back' because that is a slap in the face to what so many addicts struggle with constantly.
Its admirable that you've been able to control your use and I'm not claiming that NO ONE can do that, but if will power were sufficient for most addicts, we wouldn't have nearly as many!
I truly hope you don't believe that for most true addicts its simply a matter of 'taking the power back' because that is a slap in the face to what so many addicts struggle with constantly.
another crazy rant from lacey "NA'' K-part 3!
KC, the success of ANY rehab/program/group/watever, is at average, 12% from wat I remember reading, NA included.
I know u made the exception for me, but the point that I want to make is that, it aint that I am some kind of super special amazing person. you CAN do wat I do, without the 12 step bullshit. But you have to be more willing and work harder. To me, that hard core intense devotion to NA is a cop out. There aint nothin wrong with havin support, and it helps alot. but they over simplify shit to a ridiculous level. and If you get clean becuz you follow a strict, explicit set of rules, is that the same as gettin right with yourself and really finding inside of you wat you need to do to get there?
I aint sayin if you use NA to get clean you aint "really" clean. but its just that, its like they do so much of the work for you. Its a step by step, carefully planned out, clearly explained set of rules, a "how to" book of recovery. And when you follow them sure you get clean, but its becuz u followed the exact fucking steps to the letter and u did wat u was told, and for ME PERSONALLY, that dont feel real. I need to learn it for myself and experience it on my own terms for it to really "take", u feel me?
I also feel like alot of the ppl who got clean with NA are living lives that TO ME (once again, thats to me, becuz its just my outside opinion, and i aint judgin them, if they happy , thats cool and im wrong) seem like they couldnty really be all that happy. They go to meeting like 5-6 days a week, and every weekend they go to NA/AA picnics, barbeques, partys, watever. Its like all NA, all the time. They replace the addiction of drugs or alcohol witih the addiction to the program and going to the meetings.
Anybody can get clean if they fill every fucking hour of their day with anti drug meetings. I think it take a lot more to get clean without that, but thats just me....
If you do NA and it works for you and gets you clean and you happy, then thats wat the fuck is UP. Thats wats really good. And work that shit and be happy, and i got you and Im proud of you and happy for you.
But for me that aint never gonna be how it is, and i know that so I dont front.
personally, I think there is somethin kind of sick about the obsession with the program some of the ppl in it develop. They are like fanatics of NA, its alllll about na all the time. They apply NA philosophy and the steps to EVERYTHING in their life. They devote all their time to it. They isolate their family members in many situations. (ive heard alot about that thru the years, and its real interesting to me cuz i had never realized it before how into it some ppl get.)
When you spend all your time endlessly tellin yourself that you are a addict, and will always be a addict, that you are powerless and aint got control over the addiction, and that you always gotta constantly be on a battle against the addiction, it makes a kind of fucked up mentality.
It reminds me of those christian folks who is always goin off about the demons and spiritual warfare and how you always gotta be vigiliant, becuz a song aint just a song, it has messages that can penetrate your mind and make it more open and break down the lords armor and make it easier for the demonds to get in. You know the kind Im talkin about.
NA makes the addiction sound like its this living, breathing enemy, and its super smart, and always out to get you. That you gotta ALWAYS watch your back, cuz behind every corner, at any moment, your addiction can sneak up on you and STRIKE and you goin down just like *that*. That you gotta remain vigiliant, always ready, alert, prepared, and never stop fighting the eternal battle of you vs. addiction. Like if you stop goin to a meeting for a day or two, you are already slippin , on the on-ramp to the relapse highway. when you let yourself get stressed out in life, and start worryin bout your family or your kids or your job, that you lettin your guard down, becuz you should be worrying abotu your ADDICTION FIRST! They even say--your RECOVERY is your NUMBER ONE priority, always, and thats the only way you can stay clean. They honestly promote that kind of selfishness when it comes to the recovery, that if you a mother, your recovery should come even before your children. Shit like that, it jus baffles me, real talk. Sometimes, recovery can take a back seat to real life.
you know why?
Becuz the whole fuckin GOAL of recovery, is TO LIVE A REAL LIFE!!
Its like they want you to be a addict forever, to always be "in recovery"- to prolong the recovery forever, like you aint never just "done" and can live a normal life again. When do we get to stop goin to so many meetings? When do we get to start goin back to our normal ways, our jobs, when do we stop having to take a 30 minute detour everytime we drive somewhere so that we avoid the one of the "places" we use to cop at (people places things~!) Like, you will always be "broken", you can never LIVE a normal life like "normal" peiople, becuz they dont have the "cunning and bafffling enemy" of addiction in their life at all times.
when does it end? when do you get to put down the fuckin keychains and be like, OK, you know, i dont wanna count my chickens before they hatch or nothing...i dont wanna call the game too soon....But i been clean off drugs for 8 years, i think its OK to stop constantly referring to myself as a addict now!
Its like the people with mental illnesses who identify and label theirselfs with the illness. I seen it first hand with my uncle. When he was a young kid he got in a accident that hit his head, and ever since he got mad problems related to it. chemical problems that cuased depression, and lots of other shit. He been diagnosed with all kinda mental illnesses, but hes a reagular guy. Just a real sad type of dude sometimes.
becuz his whole lief, he been told by doctors and all that shit that he has this disease, he eventually self crippled himself from it. he also was abused physically to extreme levels of beating and violence by my grandfather, and becuz he been told by so may psych docs that this is traumatizing and scars you for life, he treats himself as a scarred, broken person. there is a definate distinction for him, that he is "differnt" than other ppl, and i think its mad negative and has damaged him in alot of ways and kept him from really goin out there and trying to live a life thats more "normal". Becuz he WANTS to, but he been told so long, and has told himself for so long, that he aint "normal" that he conditioned himslef to actually BE that way. Hes on disability/SSI, gets section 8, dont work a job.
He been like this for the past 20 or so years. And i fuckin love him to death, dont think i am criticizing him, cuz I aint. I just hurt for him so bad, becuz i KNOW that he COULD be doin so much more, but he like, Internalized these lables that he is a mentally ill person, and he feels like hes dysfunctional and cant live a normal life now. He dont hold himself to as high of standards, becuz hes "disabled" you know? Where a "normal" person has to deal with their obligations regardless of if they havin a bad day, sometimes he just "calls out sick" to life, and dont come out the house. Its like...I dont even know, he is so fuckin talented, musically he is a genuis, can play any instrument without reading music or bein taught, hes a inventor and a writer and just, so amazing with his creativity, and he could be out there , shining like a star, publishing songs or poems, or patenting his inventions, or playing music in a band or makin money as a performer at local bars or somethin, but he dont, he hides it all away--and it aint even like hes afraid he cant do it, its just that he honestly refuses to even consider it, becuz thats something a "normal" person would do. It aint even in the picture for him. It aint even something that he really feels like is in his reach, becuz of how he is and how he sees himself. And the shit breaks my FUCKIN heart. I love my uncle so much and it kills me that he is this way.
And that same "cripple" mentality comes with NA. They pretty much tell u that u damaged goods, and will always be that way forever, there aint no cure for it, and thats just who u are. And people feed into it, and believe it, just like my uncle, and it allows them to limit themselfs and who they can really be.
sure , you could be "clean" and follow the "rules"...You can barely leave the fuckin house, becuz you used everywhere and anywhere. You cant talk to none of your friends. You have to drive different routes everywhere you go. Maybe you even have to move states becuz u cant be where u used at. You limit your life in so many ways. You cant go out and do the shit that somebody else would, becuz u got to consider, might somebody be drinking there? Wat if they drink beer? Am i gonna relapse, becuz I see people drinking and Im a alcoholic/addict?
Oh, but they say, theres LOTS to do! theres NA meetings, and picnics, and parties, and fund raisers, and group events! You can visit your sponsor, or hang out with someone from your home meeting! You can volunteer to do service work for the group! You can do so much! Theres so much moe to life than drugs---theres NA!!
Dont get me wrong, I know i am paintin a picture of a more extreme view of the philosophy here, but the real thing im gettin at is that there IS people like this, LOTS OF THEM....And that to me, they make bein clean look as appealing as suckin dicks in a gutter for crack.
I know just like we all do that it aint like you just addicted then one day you aint. It aint that simple of course. You dont just take sub for 6 months and be cured. But becuz I know that soooo much of it is in my mind, when I change my mind set, when i work on my self and make progress, when I grow as a person, I CAN CHANGE, And i CAN grow out of my addiction into a stronger and wiser person with more will power and determination. And becuz I aint the sadder, more hopeless, more depressed, weaker person I use to be, Its alot easier for me to fight that demon nowadays.
When you in a certain spot mentally and emotionally, you vulnerable to the addiction, becuz its doin something for you that you need. its servin a purpose and helping you in some way even tho its hurtin you too obviously. but when you strenthen yourself, and build ur determination and resolve...when u get clean, and u get your head on straight again, and really become a whole person again, its like the addiction side just loses all its power over you. Its the strangest feeling, and i dont think u can possibly understand wat im sayin unless you have felt it too, but i hope every single one of yall gets there someday, hopefully soon.
I may not be "cured" of my addiction, but i honestly feel like I am somethin like that. Its still a side of me, but its like we switched, the addiction use to be the giant and i was just the puny ass little kid with the sling shot, but now Im the mutha fuckin Goliath yo, and that addiction aint got shit on me.
My goal is to live a happy life and be happy honestly, deep in side not be depressed. To stop gettin in legal trouble. to not have the negative effects that drug addiction gave me. to have happy family, relationships, be mentally stable and healthy and just generally satisfied with how I life my life and feel like Im content. Not to be in control--just to be on top of things and comfortable with the way shit goes. to be able to flow with the river of life as it rolls along, to roll with the punches, to be able to say that i am OK with NOT being in control, and just takin it as it comes....
My goal aint to never use drugs again. My goal aint to be "clean" or "sober." My goal aint to be drug free, and my goal aint to not have a desire to use. Its simply to have a better life, free from all the terrible negative things that the addiction brought into it.
So, if i am livin like that, Im cool wit it, regardless of wat im doing. If im happy in this life and I want to shoot some dope here and there, Im cool with that, and still think i am 100% clean. I would still count my clean days if i was doin that too. i wouldnt go back to the start, cuz i AINT goin back to the start just by doing that. I broke the spell, broke the obsession. Gettin high would not put me back at square 0, becuz im a different person now with a different mind and a way different way of doin shit.
thats hypothecial abotu th usin BTW but just sayin.
I would MUCH MUCH rather be like that, than be somebody who is TOTALLLLLY clean, no methadone, who wont even take percocet for a broken neck, and spend all my time obssessing over bein clean, becuz then your life is still obsessed with drugs. its just that now its about NOT doing drugs instead of doing them, but you aint free frmo drugs by NO means . u feel me?
To me its better to be happy, REAL, satisfied, content, and just feel COMPLETE....and if drugs is a part of that in moderation (obviously, if you really feel like you are totally happy while bein addicted to somethin like heroin, i do believe that is the ONE time that maybe your addiction really IS just lying to you, but anyways)....Thats straight. And its way better than somebody whose clean, but is in meetings 24/7, and is always thinkin abotu drugs, and not doing drugs, and cant go here becuz he used to use there, and cant see her cuz she still gets high, and cant watch this movie cuz he used to watch it while shooting up, and wont do this becuz bla bla bla...And is always on that tweaked out "gotta watch! Addiction could show up at any moment! Be on guard! lookout!" type of shit. you get to a point, whenever it may be, where you DONT need to keep acting like its day 3 of sobriety. You get stronger, you get healthier, and you get a fuller life that keeps you from evenreally thinkin about drugs much . and you can stop the whole "righteous soldier forever on watch for signs of addiction rearing its head" game. To me, seeing ppl who been clean 20+ years tell me that they STILL have to act as if it was their first day clean, is honestly, truly sad and fuck it , becuz IM being real, Ima just say it. I think its fuckin pathetic to live that way. If thats how they have to live, fine. But I think that they WOULDNT Have to live that way, if NA hadnt drilled it into they fuckin heads and made them believe it.
People who aint never been to NA before, or heard of it. they get clean. And they live good lives, and they dont go back to addiction. Id be willin to put money down that its the same percentage of people that do that, as people who do it WITH na. It aint NA that makes people clean. its the people them selves who is willing to work and follow thru.
All NA does, is give a leg up, a life raft, to the people who is a little less stronger, and who find structure and rules comforting. People like me who just get that burning desire to get clean and become unstoppable, will get clean on they own without a program. But not everone is like that, and the ones who aint got the same intense drive, can let NA help them along the way and give them strenth. And thats cool cuz if its helping more people get clean thats a wonderful thing.
I just feel like so much of the shit NA teaches (in the way it is taught nowadays, even if that is diferent than the original intentions of the creators of the program) teaches people to live in a self built prison of recovery. We lived in a prison of addiction before, but the hard core NA preachers are teaching people to build themselves into another prison, one that traps them in these circular logics and makes them feel hopeless and powerless. the program aint empowering if it teaches you that you cannot succeed without it. thats some bullyin-ass shit right there. People living three decades after their last shot of heroin who still believe they are addicted and must live like they are poor helpless little baby lambs vulnerable to becomin prey of the big bad addiction wolf make me feel terrible inside. recovery is about FREEING yourself from that, and if you still believe that shit, you really aint free at all are you.
The thing that i HATe tho, is that These ppl would NEVER come to those conclusions on their own. they get CLEAN with NA at the beginning, and figure hey this works. So then, they continue to believe everything it says, even after they accomplished wat they came there for. And its like they build it in to the program to keep people coming back that gettin clean aint enough, and staying clean aint enough, but that you need to keep comin to make it work.
its like those dick pills that makes your cock bigger, extenze or w/ever, but you have to KEEP TAKING IT if you want your dick to STAY bigger. NA=Extenze thats my analogy tonite
lol. But real talk tho.....some of these things they teach, it AINT NATURAL LOGIC....People would not even GO there or come up with that shit by themselfs, but since NA was wat helped them get right they figure hey this shits legit, they must know wat they talkin about. And so they walk around repeating this shit that honestly sounds ridiculous to a outsider, and they really believe it. And like you said Dopamine about a self fulfillin prophecy--its exactly wat happens.
And then when you go back and relapse or w/ever becuz you been told over and over and over that if you do x y and z you will relapse, yuo tell them and they say I TOLD YOU SO!! SEE, WE DONT LIE! WE KNOW! No, you didnt do it becuz they observed the shit that happens and then told you about it...its that they TOLD you abotu it , so eventaully it happened becuz its the path that been programmed into your fuckin head...Ahh...the repetition of the shit in there, that gets hammered into your skull for so long, it takes root. And then you start to act out these things that they say will or wont happen becuz you been like programmed to believe thats wat a person does in that situation, and then it reinforces the idea that they were correct in the shit they said....its all fuckin mental engineering...The shit is insane yo, in fucking sane....
Well, liek usual, Ima cut it off again, since Im goin off....So, til next time...
KC, the success of ANY rehab/program/group/watever, is at average, 12% from wat I remember reading, NA included.
I know u made the exception for me, but the point that I want to make is that, it aint that I am some kind of super special amazing person. you CAN do wat I do, without the 12 step bullshit. But you have to be more willing and work harder. To me, that hard core intense devotion to NA is a cop out. There aint nothin wrong with havin support, and it helps alot. but they over simplify shit to a ridiculous level. and If you get clean becuz you follow a strict, explicit set of rules, is that the same as gettin right with yourself and really finding inside of you wat you need to do to get there?
I aint sayin if you use NA to get clean you aint "really" clean. but its just that, its like they do so much of the work for you. Its a step by step, carefully planned out, clearly explained set of rules, a "how to" book of recovery. And when you follow them sure you get clean, but its becuz u followed the exact fucking steps to the letter and u did wat u was told, and for ME PERSONALLY, that dont feel real. I need to learn it for myself and experience it on my own terms for it to really "take", u feel me?
I also feel like alot of the ppl who got clean with NA are living lives that TO ME (once again, thats to me, becuz its just my outside opinion, and i aint judgin them, if they happy , thats cool and im wrong) seem like they couldnty really be all that happy. They go to meeting like 5-6 days a week, and every weekend they go to NA/AA picnics, barbeques, partys, watever. Its like all NA, all the time. They replace the addiction of drugs or alcohol witih the addiction to the program and going to the meetings.
Anybody can get clean if they fill every fucking hour of their day with anti drug meetings. I think it take a lot more to get clean without that, but thats just me....
If you do NA and it works for you and gets you clean and you happy, then thats wat the fuck is UP. Thats wats really good. And work that shit and be happy, and i got you and Im proud of you and happy for you.
But for me that aint never gonna be how it is, and i know that so I dont front.
personally, I think there is somethin kind of sick about the obsession with the program some of the ppl in it develop. They are like fanatics of NA, its alllll about na all the time. They apply NA philosophy and the steps to EVERYTHING in their life. They devote all their time to it. They isolate their family members in many situations. (ive heard alot about that thru the years, and its real interesting to me cuz i had never realized it before how into it some ppl get.)
When you spend all your time endlessly tellin yourself that you are a addict, and will always be a addict, that you are powerless and aint got control over the addiction, and that you always gotta constantly be on a battle against the addiction, it makes a kind of fucked up mentality.
It reminds me of those christian folks who is always goin off about the demons and spiritual warfare and how you always gotta be vigiliant, becuz a song aint just a song, it has messages that can penetrate your mind and make it more open and break down the lords armor and make it easier for the demonds to get in. You know the kind Im talkin about.
NA makes the addiction sound like its this living, breathing enemy, and its super smart, and always out to get you. That you gotta ALWAYS watch your back, cuz behind every corner, at any moment, your addiction can sneak up on you and STRIKE and you goin down just like *that*. That you gotta remain vigiliant, always ready, alert, prepared, and never stop fighting the eternal battle of you vs. addiction. Like if you stop goin to a meeting for a day or two, you are already slippin , on the on-ramp to the relapse highway. when you let yourself get stressed out in life, and start worryin bout your family or your kids or your job, that you lettin your guard down, becuz you should be worrying abotu your ADDICTION FIRST! They even say--your RECOVERY is your NUMBER ONE priority, always, and thats the only way you can stay clean. They honestly promote that kind of selfishness when it comes to the recovery, that if you a mother, your recovery should come even before your children. Shit like that, it jus baffles me, real talk. Sometimes, recovery can take a back seat to real life.
you know why?
Becuz the whole fuckin GOAL of recovery, is TO LIVE A REAL LIFE!!
Its like they want you to be a addict forever, to always be "in recovery"- to prolong the recovery forever, like you aint never just "done" and can live a normal life again. When do we get to stop goin to so many meetings? When do we get to start goin back to our normal ways, our jobs, when do we stop having to take a 30 minute detour everytime we drive somewhere so that we avoid the one of the "places" we use to cop at (people places things~!) Like, you will always be "broken", you can never LIVE a normal life like "normal" peiople, becuz they dont have the "cunning and bafffling enemy" of addiction in their life at all times.
when does it end? when do you get to put down the fuckin keychains and be like, OK, you know, i dont wanna count my chickens before they hatch or nothing...i dont wanna call the game too soon....But i been clean off drugs for 8 years, i think its OK to stop constantly referring to myself as a addict now!
Its like the people with mental illnesses who identify and label theirselfs with the illness. I seen it first hand with my uncle. When he was a young kid he got in a accident that hit his head, and ever since he got mad problems related to it. chemical problems that cuased depression, and lots of other shit. He been diagnosed with all kinda mental illnesses, but hes a reagular guy. Just a real sad type of dude sometimes.
becuz his whole lief, he been told by doctors and all that shit that he has this disease, he eventually self crippled himself from it. he also was abused physically to extreme levels of beating and violence by my grandfather, and becuz he been told by so may psych docs that this is traumatizing and scars you for life, he treats himself as a scarred, broken person. there is a definate distinction for him, that he is "differnt" than other ppl, and i think its mad negative and has damaged him in alot of ways and kept him from really goin out there and trying to live a life thats more "normal". Becuz he WANTS to, but he been told so long, and has told himself for so long, that he aint "normal" that he conditioned himslef to actually BE that way. Hes on disability/SSI, gets section 8, dont work a job.
He been like this for the past 20 or so years. And i fuckin love him to death, dont think i am criticizing him, cuz I aint. I just hurt for him so bad, becuz i KNOW that he COULD be doin so much more, but he like, Internalized these lables that he is a mentally ill person, and he feels like hes dysfunctional and cant live a normal life now. He dont hold himself to as high of standards, becuz hes "disabled" you know? Where a "normal" person has to deal with their obligations regardless of if they havin a bad day, sometimes he just "calls out sick" to life, and dont come out the house. Its like...I dont even know, he is so fuckin talented, musically he is a genuis, can play any instrument without reading music or bein taught, hes a inventor and a writer and just, so amazing with his creativity, and he could be out there , shining like a star, publishing songs or poems, or patenting his inventions, or playing music in a band or makin money as a performer at local bars or somethin, but he dont, he hides it all away--and it aint even like hes afraid he cant do it, its just that he honestly refuses to even consider it, becuz thats something a "normal" person would do. It aint even in the picture for him. It aint even something that he really feels like is in his reach, becuz of how he is and how he sees himself. And the shit breaks my FUCKIN heart. I love my uncle so much and it kills me that he is this way.
And that same "cripple" mentality comes with NA. They pretty much tell u that u damaged goods, and will always be that way forever, there aint no cure for it, and thats just who u are. And people feed into it, and believe it, just like my uncle, and it allows them to limit themselfs and who they can really be.
sure , you could be "clean" and follow the "rules"...You can barely leave the fuckin house, becuz you used everywhere and anywhere. You cant talk to none of your friends. You have to drive different routes everywhere you go. Maybe you even have to move states becuz u cant be where u used at. You limit your life in so many ways. You cant go out and do the shit that somebody else would, becuz u got to consider, might somebody be drinking there? Wat if they drink beer? Am i gonna relapse, becuz I see people drinking and Im a alcoholic/addict?
Oh, but they say, theres LOTS to do! theres NA meetings, and picnics, and parties, and fund raisers, and group events! You can visit your sponsor, or hang out with someone from your home meeting! You can volunteer to do service work for the group! You can do so much! Theres so much moe to life than drugs---theres NA!!
Dont get me wrong, I know i am paintin a picture of a more extreme view of the philosophy here, but the real thing im gettin at is that there IS people like this, LOTS OF THEM....And that to me, they make bein clean look as appealing as suckin dicks in a gutter for crack.
I know just like we all do that it aint like you just addicted then one day you aint. It aint that simple of course. You dont just take sub for 6 months and be cured. But becuz I know that soooo much of it is in my mind, when I change my mind set, when i work on my self and make progress, when I grow as a person, I CAN CHANGE, And i CAN grow out of my addiction into a stronger and wiser person with more will power and determination. And becuz I aint the sadder, more hopeless, more depressed, weaker person I use to be, Its alot easier for me to fight that demon nowadays.
When you in a certain spot mentally and emotionally, you vulnerable to the addiction, becuz its doin something for you that you need. its servin a purpose and helping you in some way even tho its hurtin you too obviously. but when you strenthen yourself, and build ur determination and resolve...when u get clean, and u get your head on straight again, and really become a whole person again, its like the addiction side just loses all its power over you. Its the strangest feeling, and i dont think u can possibly understand wat im sayin unless you have felt it too, but i hope every single one of yall gets there someday, hopefully soon.
I may not be "cured" of my addiction, but i honestly feel like I am somethin like that. Its still a side of me, but its like we switched, the addiction use to be the giant and i was just the puny ass little kid with the sling shot, but now Im the mutha fuckin Goliath yo, and that addiction aint got shit on me. My goal is to live a happy life and be happy honestly, deep in side not be depressed. To stop gettin in legal trouble. to not have the negative effects that drug addiction gave me. to have happy family, relationships, be mentally stable and healthy and just generally satisfied with how I life my life and feel like Im content. Not to be in control--just to be on top of things and comfortable with the way shit goes. to be able to flow with the river of life as it rolls along, to roll with the punches, to be able to say that i am OK with NOT being in control, and just takin it as it comes....
My goal aint to never use drugs again. My goal aint to be "clean" or "sober." My goal aint to be drug free, and my goal aint to not have a desire to use. Its simply to have a better life, free from all the terrible negative things that the addiction brought into it.
So, if i am livin like that, Im cool wit it, regardless of wat im doing. If im happy in this life and I want to shoot some dope here and there, Im cool with that, and still think i am 100% clean. I would still count my clean days if i was doin that too. i wouldnt go back to the start, cuz i AINT goin back to the start just by doing that. I broke the spell, broke the obsession. Gettin high would not put me back at square 0, becuz im a different person now with a different mind and a way different way of doin shit.
thats hypothecial abotu th usin BTW but just sayin.
I would MUCH MUCH rather be like that, than be somebody who is TOTALLLLLY clean, no methadone, who wont even take percocet for a broken neck, and spend all my time obssessing over bein clean, becuz then your life is still obsessed with drugs. its just that now its about NOT doing drugs instead of doing them, but you aint free frmo drugs by NO means . u feel me?
To me its better to be happy, REAL, satisfied, content, and just feel COMPLETE....and if drugs is a part of that in moderation (obviously, if you really feel like you are totally happy while bein addicted to somethin like heroin, i do believe that is the ONE time that maybe your addiction really IS just lying to you, but anyways)....Thats straight. And its way better than somebody whose clean, but is in meetings 24/7, and is always thinkin abotu drugs, and not doing drugs, and cant go here becuz he used to use there, and cant see her cuz she still gets high, and cant watch this movie cuz he used to watch it while shooting up, and wont do this becuz bla bla bla...And is always on that tweaked out "gotta watch! Addiction could show up at any moment! Be on guard! lookout!" type of shit. you get to a point, whenever it may be, where you DONT need to keep acting like its day 3 of sobriety. You get stronger, you get healthier, and you get a fuller life that keeps you from evenreally thinkin about drugs much . and you can stop the whole "righteous soldier forever on watch for signs of addiction rearing its head" game. To me, seeing ppl who been clean 20+ years tell me that they STILL have to act as if it was their first day clean, is honestly, truly sad and fuck it , becuz IM being real, Ima just say it. I think its fuckin pathetic to live that way. If thats how they have to live, fine. But I think that they WOULDNT Have to live that way, if NA hadnt drilled it into they fuckin heads and made them believe it.
People who aint never been to NA before, or heard of it. they get clean. And they live good lives, and they dont go back to addiction. Id be willin to put money down that its the same percentage of people that do that, as people who do it WITH na. It aint NA that makes people clean. its the people them selves who is willing to work and follow thru.
All NA does, is give a leg up, a life raft, to the people who is a little less stronger, and who find structure and rules comforting. People like me who just get that burning desire to get clean and become unstoppable, will get clean on they own without a program. But not everone is like that, and the ones who aint got the same intense drive, can let NA help them along the way and give them strenth. And thats cool cuz if its helping more people get clean thats a wonderful thing.
I just feel like so much of the shit NA teaches (in the way it is taught nowadays, even if that is diferent than the original intentions of the creators of the program) teaches people to live in a self built prison of recovery. We lived in a prison of addiction before, but the hard core NA preachers are teaching people to build themselves into another prison, one that traps them in these circular logics and makes them feel hopeless and powerless. the program aint empowering if it teaches you that you cannot succeed without it. thats some bullyin-ass shit right there. People living three decades after their last shot of heroin who still believe they are addicted and must live like they are poor helpless little baby lambs vulnerable to becomin prey of the big bad addiction wolf make me feel terrible inside. recovery is about FREEING yourself from that, and if you still believe that shit, you really aint free at all are you.
The thing that i HATe tho, is that These ppl would NEVER come to those conclusions on their own. they get CLEAN with NA at the beginning, and figure hey this works. So then, they continue to believe everything it says, even after they accomplished wat they came there for. And its like they build it in to the program to keep people coming back that gettin clean aint enough, and staying clean aint enough, but that you need to keep comin to make it work.
its like those dick pills that makes your cock bigger, extenze or w/ever, but you have to KEEP TAKING IT if you want your dick to STAY bigger. NA=Extenze thats my analogy tonite
lol. But real talk tho.....some of these things they teach, it AINT NATURAL LOGIC....People would not even GO there or come up with that shit by themselfs, but since NA was wat helped them get right they figure hey this shits legit, they must know wat they talkin about. And so they walk around repeating this shit that honestly sounds ridiculous to a outsider, and they really believe it. And like you said Dopamine about a self fulfillin prophecy--its exactly wat happens.And then when you go back and relapse or w/ever becuz you been told over and over and over that if you do x y and z you will relapse, yuo tell them and they say I TOLD YOU SO!! SEE, WE DONT LIE! WE KNOW! No, you didnt do it becuz they observed the shit that happens and then told you about it...its that they TOLD you abotu it , so eventaully it happened becuz its the path that been programmed into your fuckin head...Ahh...the repetition of the shit in there, that gets hammered into your skull for so long, it takes root. And then you start to act out these things that they say will or wont happen becuz you been like programmed to believe thats wat a person does in that situation, and then it reinforces the idea that they were correct in the shit they said....its all fuckin mental engineering...The shit is insane yo, in fucking sane....
Well, liek usual, Ima cut it off again, since Im goin off....So, til next time...
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Dopamine_Cowboy
Bluelighter
There is nothing "simple" about taking control of an addiction and turning it around. It's hard work regardless of the path one chooses. And, unlike the 12-step faithful, I believe there are many ways to deal with addictions and drug use. As has been mentioned, addiction isn't a simple binary black/white issue...and seeing it as such slams a lot of doors shut.
Yes, I hold a point of view that differs from conventional wisdom. That certainly doesn't mean I trivialize the struggles addicts face on a daily basis. I just don't like being boxed in and told what to think. I take in information, evaluate it, and draw my own conclusions.
Statistics can be useful, of course, but I don't take them as the gospel. Statistics say two out of three people will develop some sort of tumor in their lifetime...am I going to wake up every day and worry about getting cancer? No.
Statistics say users moving from addiction back to controlled, occasional use are a minority. While that may be true, it is not necessarily true for me.
xxkcxx
Bluelighter
Again, I would say most people do not think the 12 steps are the only way.
In fact, the Big Book says exactly as much. This is just one of many paths.
The major problem I am seeing is the people get the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous confused with Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.
largeamount
Bluelighter
hey <snip> TDS does not allow person-to-person abuse. Bill W. the man who created the steps and wrote a lot of the AA book used LSD regularly throughout his recovery
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I don't see why some of you harbor such strong feelings against AA/NA. What are you trying to accomplish with you negativity? Those people are drug addicts struggling to get their life together. If the program doesn't fit you it doesn't. It doesnt fit alot of people because they arent willing to make certain sacrifices.
It isnt the only way to achieve sobriety or to get your life under control. But that doesnt mean you should bash it. Just as you hardcore AA/NA people shouldnt preach your shit!
Seriously lend a helping hand to addict, give some advice but you cant make someone sober.
Lacey, you need to chill out. Who are you to judge how people get sober and say that they arent strong enough to get sober on their own. I know alot of addicts are too afraid to do what AA/NA asks. Its simple but scary so we make up reasons to avoid it. Reasons to bash it.
Personally I dont like meetings and was never interested in gettng completely sober. Tomorrow is my 6 months from opiates and benzos and a few other things. I still smoke weed and drink and am completly happy this way. I wouldnt change it.
But I respect as it has helped alot of my friends and many people. The success rate might be low btu how many people who walk in the door actually make the sacrifices. Not many so its hard to judge. Seriously everyone needs to get along and not bash each other. We are all trying to acheive the same goal with different roads.
It isnt the only way to achieve sobriety or to get your life under control. But that doesnt mean you should bash it. Just as you hardcore AA/NA people shouldnt preach your shit!
Seriously lend a helping hand to addict, give some advice but you cant make someone sober.
Lacey, you need to chill out. Who are you to judge how people get sober and say that they arent strong enough to get sober on their own. I know alot of addicts are too afraid to do what AA/NA asks. Its simple but scary so we make up reasons to avoid it. Reasons to bash it.
Personally I dont like meetings and was never interested in gettng completely sober. Tomorrow is my 6 months from opiates and benzos and a few other things. I still smoke weed and drink and am completly happy this way. I wouldnt change it.
But I respect as it has helped alot of my friends and many people. The success rate might be low btu how many people who walk in the door actually make the sacrifices. Not many so its hard to judge. Seriously everyone needs to get along and not bash each other. We are all trying to acheive the same goal with different roads.
OverDone
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2008
- Messages
- 5,404
welll said
PureLife
Bluelighter
I was in A.A. for about two years, but stopped going. For one, it didn't work for me, at all. It created more anxiety, and I ended up isolating my real friends and family. Those friends and family that were really there for me, I was told to get rid of them. They were part of my "using life". I was told to really only hang out with people from the program, my new sober friends. That to me sounds very cultish, but I know A.A. isn't a "cult", but rather a religious movement.
Bill Wilson's word is the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of Alcoholism. For someone who was nothing more than a drug addicted salesman turned christian leader in the war against this "disease".
Some other things that I don't like about A.A.
* Disagreeing with ANY A.A. tradition or way of life is considered a disease symptom. Your simply not allowed to question anything.
Here's a quote from a website I go on, it basically states how A.A. dictates in great detail how members should think, feel and act. ( permission from sponsor to date, to go to certain events, to get married, to change jobs, to LIVE. you no longer think for yourself, everything becomes a group desicion) AA taught me that I can't think for myself, since I am an addict. That I should always ask three people from A.A. if what I am doing is ok. ( Mind you it has to be three people from A.A. , not from the outside)
It is the norm for "sponsors" to dictate all these things to their "babies." In the groups, one is to turn one's "will and life over to the care of God." There is no distinction made in AA theology between AA and God, so refusal to turn one's "will and life" over to the group is very much equivalent to defying God. In the groups, "God" requires suppression of normal human emotion. (e.g. Anger "when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. ...we drink again. And for us, to drink is to die.
I could rant on and on, but I won't. Some people A.A. works, and keeps clean for awhile. That's great, I wish it had that ability to work for me like that. What it comes down to is A.A. being presented as the only viable option to treatment.
Bill Wilson's word is the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of Alcoholism. For someone who was nothing more than a drug addicted salesman turned christian leader in the war against this "disease".
Some other things that I don't like about A.A.
* Disagreeing with ANY A.A. tradition or way of life is considered a disease symptom. Your simply not allowed to question anything.
Here's a quote from a website I go on, it basically states how A.A. dictates in great detail how members should think, feel and act. ( permission from sponsor to date, to go to certain events, to get married, to change jobs, to LIVE. you no longer think for yourself, everything becomes a group desicion) AA taught me that I can't think for myself, since I am an addict. That I should always ask three people from A.A. if what I am doing is ok. ( Mind you it has to be three people from A.A. , not from the outside)
It is the norm for "sponsors" to dictate all these things to their "babies." In the groups, one is to turn one's "will and life over to the care of God." There is no distinction made in AA theology between AA and God, so refusal to turn one's "will and life" over to the group is very much equivalent to defying God. In the groups, "God" requires suppression of normal human emotion. (e.g. Anger "when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. ...we drink again. And for us, to drink is to die.
I could rant on and on, but I won't. Some people A.A. works, and keeps clean for awhile. That's great, I wish it had that ability to work for me like that. What it comes down to is A.A. being presented as the only viable option to treatment.
ive been to a few meetings. yeah some of them suck for sure. but i happened to find a group with a bunch of guys like me. half of them dont even believe in the whole jesus shit. none of them are preachy too. i think you just have to go around and find a good one. they are out there, and they do help IMO. better than not having anyone. if i didnt have people to talk to, id be fucked up right now on my way to an early death.
I aint judging shit. Im just telling the truth. Some people aint strong enough to get clean withut the help of NA. Its a fact. And it aint a negative thing, and I said that many times over. you aint readin my whole posts if thats wat you get outa them. I think its a great program for the people who it works for. But i think that the thigns tehy do to impressionable people are fucked up and manipulative. And I got as much a right to say that as anybody got a right to say anything at all.
Its alot scarier to look at the wide open world and realize its all up to you than it is to work a 12step program. to work the program is to give in to the comfort of following rules that are dictated to you. you aint got to make your own decisions, everything is spelled out for you. It takes alot more to break free frmo that mold and be able to make the healthy decisions that is right for your life without the input of all this shit telling you wat to do and how to live and think.
And I sure as hell dont need reasons to say negative shit about it. The program gives them to me on a silver platter with a "please rip apart my hypocrisy" sign on top.
I go to meetings. I like talkin to people. ive found some good folks.
But i think its really fucking sick and twisted the way some people try and control other people, and you see alot of that in the program. So , this is the place to talk about it.
I been rejected and looked down on by NA memebers long enough for my views on addiction that i think its ok for me to have my say now. If u feel like i shouldnt be sayin it, i dont know wat to tell you.