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AA /NA meetings make me nuts

no lacey and the other dude are lames

xxkcxx has it right and she didnt need to write a fuckin essay
 
largeamount said:
no lacey and the other dude are lames

xxkcxx has it right and she didnt need to write a fuckin essay
Click to expand...

Hardcore NAers seem to have difficulty grasping a few basic facts. The main ones being: 1) 12-step programs are not for everybody, 2) there are many other paths to sobriety and people are free to CHOOSE what works best for them, and 3) it is possible, for some people, to use drugs responsibly even after being addicted.

What turns me off the most is the binary thinking (it's either NA or death....blahblah), and the bloody preaching these people do. They sound like religious fanatics trying to shove their religion down peoples' throats.

Oh, and if you're on psych meds or methadone/suboxone you are the devil...but it's okay to swill coffee nonstop and chain smoke cigarettes.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
 
Dopamine_Cowboy said:
3) it is possible, for some people, to use drugs responsibly even after being addicted.
Click to expand...

This is something that is discussed and addressed quite frequently in my addictions counseling classes. I completely agreed with you years ago but now I think if that population of addict -> chipper exists, its pretty damn low and there are very extenuating circumstances.

I think for your typical DSM-IV-TR diagnosable Substance Dependent individual, there is virtually no chance of going back to any type of chipping or infrequent use that won't become problematic down the line.

If people go to treatment, make lifestyle changes and start to get better, yeah they can probably sustain their use without substantial consequences for SOME time. If people completely lost control of their use at one point, the chances of being able to use again without that happening is very low.

This is likely due to a genetic component, neural effects from their use etc... meaning behavioral changes through treatment although beneficial can't override all the other factors involved in the addictive process.
 
^That particular point does bother me. Here where I'm at the treatment facilities and 12 steps are tending away from coffee and cigarettes (only serving decaf, restricting smoking) and opening up much more to psychotropics and maintenance meds.

Of course, there is still a long way to go. I would just say don't let the dogmatic views of the hardcore "lifers" discourage you from receiving some of the benefits of the program and support of the ones who DON'T judge (assuming the old chain-smoking, coffee-breathed fucks didn't scare them away ;))
 
As I told someone in another thread, the people who say you cannot take psych meds aren't actually working the program out of the Big Book.


It says in the book and one of the readings read at every meeting that "AA has no opinion on outside matters." Medicine and psychiatry are outside matters. Bill W. believed that if you need to see a doctor, go see a doctor and do what he says because Bill and most others in AA certainly aren't qualified in that arena. My sponsor told me the same thing--she would never pretend like she knew how to cure depression, so she would never tell me to get off Zoloft or any other psych med prescribed to me by someone who had studied it for years. I would say the majority of people I met in AA feel this way.


Of course you will get people trying to work their own programs like most people will do. There is no difference between believing that you can't take psych meds and that you can work the AA program by going to meetings but never get a sponsor. The people who feel this way and fail are not proving the program doesn't work, they are proving that their way doesn't.


When you go to AA, read the book for yourself and see what it really says. Find someone who is following the program as outlined in the book. The people in AA are human. Of course some of them are going to twist what was given to fit their beliefs. Of course you will find people who get on power trips and get superiority complexes because they have so much time clean.


That is why you really need to first learn for yourself what the program is about and then really watch how people not only speak in meetings, but how they speak and act before and after and outside of meetings.



I'd also like to add that I tried AA/NA several times before I got clean this last time. I was in a recovery house this time and forced to go to meetings daily. At first, I did hate it, but I needed to do what I needed to do, so I did it. After awhile, once I stopped thinking it was just not for me, what they said started to penetrate. The truth is that A LOT of people have gotten sober/clean with the 12-steps and no offense, but most of you complaining about it can't say the same.


Of course there are people who can, like Lacey, but they are few and far between.
 
i had clean time in past with n.a. , over a year, then went back out , went to prison etc etc so its easy for me to say that my using caused me to go to jail , ruin my life etc, but now that i fuond suboxone i still chip with dope and have some control over my life , Working, school etc........but of course if i go to N.a. and explain this id be looked at like im some idiot........
 
Even an addict can have some control for awhile.


I used to use for a week and a half, then go on suboxone for 5 days so I could pass a UA for my PO. I did this for 5 months. I thought I was in control.


Then one day, things didn't work out the way I thought they would and I had dope in front of me four days before my drop and I just couldn't say no.
 
Keep in mind, you don't have to agree with everything the 12 Step programs incorporate. For example, I was crushed when I read the following:

NSFW:
Bulletin #29

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals' membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a 'member' and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

*
Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
*
Abiding by our fellowship's suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
*
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.

We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.

Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

source: http://web.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29
Click to expand...

I fuckin' HATE this viewpoint, but I still go to meetings regularly and am able to suggest to folks that they may not want to share that they are on MMT/suboxone due to other people's self-righteous judgments. It sucks but its a reality.

The above bulletin is VERY contrary and for me, I don't need to incorporate that narrow minded viewpoint into my program.

ANYTHING, that can help a person feel better, function better, and get away from that deadly monkey on their backs is fine by me. There are other options out there. Personally I grabbed onto what was presented to me, gave it a chance and like lacey said, took the meat and left the bone.
 
Yeah man , they are basically saying they dont approve of it without coming outright and saying it because then they would look bad , assholes
 
part 2 of another NA rant

If you on methadone, YOU AINT STILL USING!!! There is a huge fuckin difference between using heroin and livin a addict lifestyle and being on methadone....

Anyways, this is some shit that really gets to me, and I feel like that post OverDone made is a perfect ecample of the hypocrisy in NA. "We dont got no opinions on outside matters, and no opinion on methadone user." And then they put this bulletin out that if someone is on methadone they are "still using." they DO have opinions on it, and they just mask it in a shitty, backhanded, pussy twoface way cuz they cant say it straight up and be honest.


Now, wat about this? I am on methadone for mmt...AND pain management!

So...Is it only considered that i am "not using" , if i am taking it for pain management?

So, as long as i take my methadone pills, and i say that I am taking it for pain, then i am "not using."

BUT if i take the EXACT SAME drug in the same way, and say that i am on it for "MMT", then i am "using."

Thsi is one of the things that drives me crazy.

They are saying that taking the substance is ok, DEPENDING ON THE REASONS AND ATTITUDE BEHIND IT.

So, its OK to take methadone if its prescribed for pain, becuz its a treatment, and you aint addicted to it (you are dependant, and you have a physical addiction, of course. So, pretty much, you addicted , even tho technically the term would be dependant, since we all know the difference, but in NA view it would be considered addicted i think.)

They basically saying, you can take this drug, as long as you got the right attitude about it. If you dont treat it addictively, and you aitn living a lifestyle of active addiction to get it, then its OK.

So, how is that any different than taking it for MMT? You aint livin the life of a addict no more, you are living within the law, you aint feening out for your methadone, you may be physically dependent on it, but you dont treat it the same way as your DOC. You dose everyday to maintain a need that you have, and take it as prescribed for a medical treatment, and your attitude is all about recovery and livin a better life,and bein free of the obsession of drugs.

Can ANYBODY please tell me wtf the difference is there? There aint no difference. Any "difference" that anybody can come up with, would have to be some of that NA doublespeak shit that really dont even mean nothing. Its so ridiculous.


So, the whole idea there is "using this drug is OK, becuz you aint addicted and living a addict lifestlyle, and all the main parts of addiction such as feening, obsession, compulsion, negative effects on your life, legal problems, family problems, medical problems, and over all downward spiral effects in ur entire life due to the use of the drug, aint present. You are using it responsibly for a legit reason, so its OK.'

Now, i know for a fact that NA dont feel that way about using drugs, becuz if they did, you could easily apply that same logic to a person who uses recreationall and chips every 6 months or somethin. and they dont believe thats possible. So its total bullshti wat they saying here.


Last week I was at a meeting and I got pissed the fuck off.
This bitch was gettin stomach surgery or some serious surgery, i forget which kind. And she was flippin a shit, givin her self a mental breakdown, becuz she was freaked out about goin into surgery, becuz she was AFRAID SHE WOULD GET PAINKILLERS IN SURGERY. And she wanted to go into surgery and not get NO pain killers during the operation (basically, surgery w/out anesthesia.) Becuz she said, i quote "You just cant GIVE a addict painkillers! Well you can, but you cant! It will screw them up! Addicts cant 'just take painkillers', it will set off a whole cycle of addiction! and im so worried about going into surgery, becuz I keep telling the doctor that Im a drug addict and they cant give me pain meds during surgery and ESPECIALLY not afterwards when i go home, and like they just aint listening to me!"

And all these ppl in the meeting was like, You go girl, you doin the right thing! Dont let them make you relapse! You dont need that shit! Hell, I broke my leg and they gave me percocet and I was fine i just took advil!! You can do it!!

Like, instead of "Hey, listen bitch, its one thing to get a bottle of oxycontin and blow lines everyday for a week. Its alot different to go into surgery and get a IV painkiller becuz you need to be sedated and have that painkiller in order for them to do the operation. You aint "using" becuz u got a IV morphine drip in the hospital after surgery. Its ok, this aint a relapse, its a legitimatly prescribed medication from a doctor, who knows way more about whether or not you need it than you or me knows. So relax, this aint a big deal."

No, these folks was all like, Hell yea, get surgery without painkillers! Otherwise you on a slippery slope! Youre a addict, you aint LIKE other people, you CANT take ANY painkillers EVER becuz "ADDICTS CANT JUST HAVE ONE!!!! DEEEERRRRRRRR~!!"

I dont understand how a person can HONESTLY not understand the difference between taking a medication during surgery thats necessary for the surgery, and goin out and coppin dope. First of all, you aint doin it becuz you WANT to-its a doctor givin it to you becuz its medically necessary. Second of all, if you aint the one dosing yourself, and you dont have no more of the drug afterwards, how the hell is that gonna make you go out and get high? Are you sayin you got SO LITTLE self control that you honestly cannot come home from the hospital without sayin, "wowwww....that morphine drip was sooo good, that makes me crave heroin, so i am gonna go out and relapse now, its totally outside my control." ?? Go to a meeting, bitch! Call your sponsor! use the phone or some shit! Dont pick up! All that is some basic NA shit, so I dont understand why all of a sudden when thats the general procedure 99% of the time, somehow, if you get pk's in the hospital, you will be totally unable to do that, and just go out and cop drugs in a zombie trance.

I really do not honestly believe "once a addict, always a addict." I DO believe, and KNOW, from my own life, that you get to a point, where it stops bein about willpower and control. You DO choose to get high...but you dont. your brain is sooo fucked up, and your priorities is all messed up and crazy, and you so far gone that you just lost, and it feels like you just a puppet and somebody else is controlling the strings and makin you use drugs. Or like you in a movie, and you watchin yourself, but its impossible to change the path that you took, even tho you know its goin down the wrong road you powerless to change it and you just sit there watching, transfixed by the story but un able to participate in your own fate. And thats when you are in the point where your addiction pretty much is controlling you. BUT-It aint always like that. And usually IME when you pull your head above water for a while and dry out for a few months, you get your perspective back.

It aint like the MOMENT you take a drug, even if you been clean for 5 years, you will instantly go back to that "puppet" mentality and be totally under control of the drug. You dotn get there immediately. Thats that old one hit and you hooked bullshit. If you are using how ever often, and you aint in that switched, backwards world where the drug uses you, it is pretty fuckin easy to control whether or not you use. Its only once you get dragged under and your head gets all messed up and confused and you dont know which way is up no more, that you get into that outta control kind of using. that is why chippers dont get lost and caught up in it like us longtime addicts do. They dont use it enough to get under the spell, and becuz their head is right, it aint difficult for them to stay on point and be on top of it at all times.

But, becuz i HAVE experienced that type of use before, and also experienced controlled use, I know that its possible at least for ME , to do both. I might be alot different than alot of folks, but like i said, once I decide to get clean, aint no such thing as temptation, even. I have shot up friends while bein clean. I have had a bundle in front of me in my lap and a fresh pack of needles and not used. I have had ALOT of chances to use, not just phone calls offering it, but dope in front of me, right there, and not did it. Becuz that was it-i decided i was gonna be clean, and i was clean, and it wasnt cuz of rehab or NA or w/ever, it was that i made that choice, deep inside myself, and I did it. My whole life ive had a real strong will power, and i gave it up when i got addicted, and i reclaimed it now and its stronger than ever. I done some extreme tests of willpower thru my life.

For example when i was a teenager, I wanted to test out my willpower as far as I could go. So i decided that I would see how longn I could not eat or drink any thing but water for. So keep in mind zero calories-zero nutrients-no energy. water ONLY....No coffee, ice tea, juice, etc, just water and diet drinks with no calories.

So, I made it 6 and a half days without eating ONE BITE of food, or no drinking nothing but water. And shit, food is everywhere, it aint like dope. You cant avoid eating or people who is eating, but i kept to my plan and pushed my will to my limits. I only finally ate when i got so physically exhausted that I couldnt keep doin it without riskin my health.

And there was no real 'reward" to that experiement--I jus wanted to see how strong my willpower could be. and that has stayed with me as i got older, I turned my will over to heroin when i got addicted, and just stopped givin a fuck, i didnt care at all. But now that i got it back, its some iron clad shit. For me, it wasnt that i "couldnt" control it, it was that i reached a point that i just gave up, and stopped wanting to control it. To control it woulda been to hard. to exercise my will power was something i didnt WANT to do, becuz i LIKED using and wanted to keep using. I didnt want to put my mind to it, becuz i was selfish and was not ready to give it my all.

once i DID feel ready tho, it was easier than i ever thought it could of been, honest to god. I can say, truthfully, that i really dont even struggle with it any more. It aint like this epic battle that I thought it would be. Becuz once i set my mind on something, everything just falls into place behind it. Its hard to explain, but it is like I am "on" or "off" using. when i set my addict switch to "off", its like i never was addicted in the first place. I aint a addict who aint using. Im just a regular person who aint a addict, so therefore I dont use, since drugs aint something I do. I aint a drug user who is currently aint using. I am a non drug user, period. U feel me, does that make sense?

IDK. I aint tryin to ramble, and like i said, ima break up my ideas into a couple posts, becuz i got so much to say abotu this topic. But becuz of the way I am personally I cant get wit the Na idea of bein controlled by my addiction, becuz I KNOW that once i took back my control, my addiction was not even close to bein a match for my willpower to succeed. And NA is all about how its a disease, you have no control over it, its just something that controls you, and the only way you can be safe from it is to avoid it all together. And some ppl is like that, but I aint. I aint a addict right now. I am me, a regular mutha fucka who dont use drugs. If i was a addict, I would be using drugs and hooked on them. I aint a "non using" addict, I aint a addict who aint in "active addiction". I aint addicted, there fore I aint a addict. And dont tell me i AM addicted and just aint using. Know why ? becuz I DID use "just once" during this time I been clean. And I had no problem at all gettin right back on my methadone the next morning. Once I broke the cycle of addiction, and killed the obesssion with gettin high, it was easy for me to use one time and not get carried away. Whether or not I am a addict aint genetic. it aint a permanent status. It aint inside of me, or some kind of defect. It is defined by my attitude towards the drug at the time. And if i am somebody who use to be addicted to heroin, and then I get clean, work on myself and lose all that addict mentality, and then use heroin again, I didnt go back to bein a addict. I truly believe and know this to be true for myself. I aint gonna speak for nobody else. But becuz of all this, i cant stand the shit they try to tell me in NA.

And the WORST thing of all, is that when I say some shit like this to sombody, they say--"THATS JUST YOUR ADDICTION TALKING." NO!! It aint!! Give me some fuckin credit, aight?! Aaaahhh, that shit drive me absolutely NUTZ when they say that.Like, ANY thing you say about drugs that has even the slightest bit of positivity in it, isntead of totally condeming all drugs, they say its just your addiction talking. Like there aitn NO WAY that any regular person coudl EVER say or believe something positive about drugs, or that its possible to use drugs without abusing them or becoming addicted. If you say that, you are just lettin urself get fooled by your addiction lying to you. And how the hell do you even answer to that? I mean they really believe that shit, its like a trump card becuz ANYTHIN You say, its just "your addiction talking." that shit make me furious yo....


And the idea that if i quit drugs for 50 years and when I am 72 I break my hip and need painkillers to help me out, that i will start to abuse them if i get a bottle of oxys cuz "once a addict always a addict" is just ridiculous. But if i say that i CAN use them without bein addicted, "its just my addiction talking..." :X
 
I just also want to add that I have found AA to be more accepting than AA.


AA and NA may follow similar steps, but they have their own text that is actually very different from AA's Big Book.


However, I support whatever gets people sober.


Oh, and FWIW, I'm an addict and really never considered myself an alcoholic.
 
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I actually went to NA for about 1 1/2 years, a little AA at the beginning actually. I really gave it an open mind, I got a sponsor, new friends etc. She wouldn't let me do the steps because I was on subs. I couldn't find anyone else who would go along with it either, although I didn't ask too many people. Too much judging to have everyone know. I read the NA and AA Big Books several times. I relapsed probably on average once every 6 weeks, on any drug besides (not counting my psych meds). This was some improvement for me. I think ultimately when you are known as a "frequent relapser", at least in my experience, people stop being as nice to you. They assume you are always high. Even my best friends did this to me, all the time. People I knew before getting clean. It was very counterproductive and frustrating. My social anxiety shot up.

I have a lot of problems with NA, sure, but ultimately the problems with medicine and the group-status-based-on-clean-time thing was just no good for me. I don't think there is no inherent value, but I do think, depending on the group, it can be unhealthy and cult-like, or very helpful and just a little cliquey. But no matter what, I've always found the group on a whole to be anti-psychiatry, especially anti-maintenance, and triggering as hell. Just my experience.
 
Lacey, I enjoyed reading both of your posts and commend you for your strength of will, not to say all people don't have that deep down... but I am definitely not as good as you at keeping what I want what I want, if that makes any sense. I get to the point where I really think I don't want to use and stop for a while, a couple months, and then I do it once. And sometimes only once. But lots of times it has turned into more than that. So we are all different. :)
 
That is why i stopped telling people i was relapsing. they would make me feel even worse about it , so i decided if i wanna go to a meeting i will and i dont have to tell anyone anything , i have gone to lots of meetings high and still wanted to go , why ? im not sure , maybe because i had nowhere else to go , maybe because part of me wants to get clean ,.................but even though i know i shuold get honest i dont feel its gonna matter what anyone says until im ready to stop doing dope
 
^ the same that it thinks now--- "No opinion on outside matters."



So may people ignore that statement.


Mainly because it doesn't fit their negative opinion of the organization.
 
I've already explained why the 12 steps don't work for me. When I was going to AA meetings (voluntarily, and I was abstinent the whole time) I was on Klonopin and Xanax for anxiety. I was not judged for not being completely drug-free. I do not abuse benzos as I need them for a legitimate medical condition. My fellowship advised that I should ultimately wean, but that is just common sense and they did not force that on me in any way.

As I said before, it's the stories of others that really did me in. They just broke my heart in ways I never anticipated. I am not easily shocked - at all - and I was shocked beyond recognition over some of what I heard. Many alcoholics are also sex addicts. I am not one of them. When the "shares" and speakers talked about the effects of being an alcoholic on their sex addiction, it sounded to me like porn more than anything else. I was very uncomfortable when the subject of sex was brought up. Get your own damn meetings, sex addicts! ;) Maybe the women only meetings have less of this? The meetings I attended were at least 75% male.

xxkcxx said:
However, I support whatever gets people sober.
Click to expand...

Spot on.
 
Karaboudjan said:
So someone who attends NA and takes a maintenance dose of heroin is less good in the eyes of NA than someone who takes a drug in any other name purely because big pharma has lobbied for it to be recognised as a medicine by the FDA?
Click to expand...

Because doctor's who have had years of school and training are prescribing and monitoring you when you on those pharmaceuticals.


Also, if someone was using a maintenance dose of heroin and able to leave it at that, I really doubt they would be going to NA.


NA/AA/CA are to help people STOP using, not to learn how to use properly.
 
I just dont believe all these n.a. /aa people are as happy as they pretend to be
 
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