A very dark topic...Read at your own risk.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Why should anyone beleive a person that does whipit's while makin'theories, I think its the drugs that are makin' those theories. You shouldn't do drugs because your already Fucked up as it is. Next thing we know you'll be doing weed and makin' more theories like you'll be cool in school one day..... try to lay-off the Whipit's and let your mind unfog from all that smoke you have been inhailing . Maybe Just maybe You'll make better music than that crap I have been downloading from cRiRiS.
 
Ok Mr. S Raver I do agree on the drug part and that he was under the infulence of drugs but cant you see that I already made that a issue and you need to understand that.... Necro just is Necro let him beleive want he wants to hey maybe he was on drugs at the time so what havent you been on drugs at one time if not then why in the hell are you here are you just here to critisize us all well like i said knowone is right or wrong quit trying to prove something or disprove something if you believe in God nice if you don't then that's nice too.... Oh and by the way im not trying to affend you SRaver but are you the Dude that always downloads Necro's music from me what are you trying to see if theres a song that actuallly sounds good well theres a few and i mean few that i have that sound any good i don't got the one's that sound good he does.....
Oh and also um the name is CRiSiS get it right my main man....
So thanx for the insite on that one SRaver and ill take it all in consideration even though i already said must of it,, But Good Point, He should try to think without drugs maybe it will help him more..............
Peace to my boy Necro and my New Bluelighter SurfinRaver......
(---God---Speed---)
------------------
Don't Stop - - It's the Real Sound!!
 
"Ockham's razor" The simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation.
Ockham's razor is the idea that, in trying to understand something, getting unnecessary information out f the way is the fastest way to the truth or to the best explanation. William of Ockham, English theologian and philosopher, spent his life developing a philosophy that reconciled religious belief with demonstratable, generally experienced truth, mainly by separating the two. Where earlier philosophers attempted to justify God's existence with rational proof, Ockham declared religious belief to be incapable of such proof and a matter of faith. He rejected the notions preserved from Classical times of the independent existence of qualities such as truth, hardness, and durability and said these ideas had value only as descriptions of particular objects and were really characteristics of human cognition. Ockham was noted for his insistence on paying close attention to language as a tool for thinking and on
observation as a tool for testing reality. His thinking and writing is considered to have laid the
groundwork for modern scientific inquiry.
Ockham's insistence on the use of parsimony (we might call it minimalism) in thought resulted in
some later writer's invention of the term, Ockham's razor. Among his statements (translated from
his Latin) are: "Plurality is not to be assumed without necessity" and "What can be done with
fewer [assumptions] is done in vain with more." One consequence of this methodology is the idea
that the simplest or most obvious explanation of several competing ones is the one that should be
preferred until it is proven wrong.
"God did it" simple. Period.
"There is no God" simple. However, if there is no God then you have to make many assumptions, which isn't simple.
As for my other theory(s), enough isn't known about gravity on a quantum scale, yet. However, gravity can produce a tear in the time space continuum...and electrical fields (brain waves) do produce a form of gravity...so through some mathematical calculation involving quantum mechanics, who's to say that when you die a tiny rip isn't torn in the continuum and somehow one's conscious doesn't shift into another plane of existence. Just a thought to ponder, I find it enjoyable to think of crazy shit that IS plausible because it is bound by reality as we know it today.
In my opinion, one day math will prove everything.
[This message has been edited by Plague2040* (edited 20 July 2000).]
 
That is a completely wrong application of Ockham's razor!!!
We know that the material world exists. So why ASSUME that God existed beforehand to create it? God is the additional assumption.
Ockham's razor will ALWAYS result in atheism!
------------------
Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
 
Ok, I wish I could just let this go, but I can't.
smile.gif

I think you're misinterpreting Ockham's Razor here to help in your quest for God.
"God did it." - Is not a scientific theory, it's a guess, or hypothesis.
"Man evolved by chemical reactions." - Is a scientific theory, because the theory is used to explain the scientific data that has been discovered.
As for the correct use of Ockham's Razor:
In many cases it is interpreted as ``keep it simple'', but in reality the Razor has a more subtle and interesting meaning. Suppose that you have two competing theories which describe the same system, if these theories have different predictions than it is a relatively simple matter to find which one is better: one does experiments with the required sensitivity and determines which one give the most accurate predictions. For example, in Copernicus' theory of the solar system the planets move in circles around the sun, in Kepler's theory they move in ellipses. By measuring carefully the path of the planets it was determined that they move on ellipses, and Copernicus' theory was then replaced by Kepler's.
But there are are theories which have the very same predictions and it is here that the Razor is useful. Consider form example the following two theories aimed at describing the motions of the planets around the sun:
- The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance.
- The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance. This force is generated by the will of some powerful aliens.
Since the force between the planets and the sun determines the motion of the former and both theories posit the same type of force, the predicted motion of the planets will be identical for both theories. the second theory, however, has additional baggage (the will of the aliens) which is unnecessary for the description of the system.
If one accepts the second theory solely on the basis that it predicts correctly the motion of the planets one has also accepted the existence of aliens whose will affect the behavior of things, despite the fact that the presence or absence of such beings is irrelevant to planetary motion (the only relevant item is the type of force). In this instance Ockham's Razor would unequivocally reject the second theory. By rejecting this type of additional irrelevant hypotheses guards against the use of solid scientific results (such as the prediction of planetary motion) to justify unrelated statements (such as the existence of the aliens) which may have dramatic consequences. In this case the consequence is that the way planets move, the reason we fall to the ground when we trip, etc. is due to some powerful alien intellect, that this intellect permeates our whole solar system, it is with us even now...and from here an infinite number of paranoid derivations.
For all we know the solar system is permeated by an alien intellect, but the motion of the planets, which can be explained by the simple idea that there is a force between them and the sun, provides no evidence of the aliens' presence nor proves their absence.
A more straightforward application of the Razor is when we are face with two theories which have the same predictions and the available data cannot distinguish between them. In this case the Razor directs us to study in depth the simplest of the theories. It does not guarantee that the simplest theory will be correct, it merely establishes priorities.
A related rule, which can be used to slice open conspiracy theories, is Hanlon's Razor: ``Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity''.
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 20 July 2000).]
 
Yes the material world did exist, now...how did it come into existance??? This is where the application comes in.
God created the universe.
Or
Some how some way the universe came into existance by its own means.
I would have to say that one way assumes much less than the other. Either way though, you're right, the material world does/did exist, but the question is how did it come into existance.
 
What I find interesting is the seemingly unbudging idea that there is no God. Those of you who believe there is no God seem to not give any consideration to the possibility of His existence because some how/way you've rationalized His existence away. As for me I see both sides, I haven't rationalized His existence away, however I haven't rationalized Him into existence. I'm just as rational and logical as you, however there are some things in this world that we cannot and may not ever be able to comprehend. I don't think that believing in God is a binary decision. Most people who think rationally and logically can narrow decisions to one of two options... i.e. a binary decision. On this topic a binary decision will bring peace in some form, I believe. Be it peace that you believe He does exist, or peace that you believe He doesn't exist. However, I ask this: If there is no God, where did all this (the universe) come from? If you have an answer to that the I ask, where did that/it come from...? These questions can be applied to both the idea of a God or no God. So in the end its a stalemate, a paradox of sorts, and we must stick to our convictions. Personally, I believe in a higher power, deem His name God if you must, but I do believe that there is something greater out there. <-----The dreamer in me.
One other question Trancendance and Stasis...do you consider yourselves optimists or pessimists?
 
"What I find interesting is the seemingly unbudging idea that there is no God."
Well, as long as there is no evidence to support the idea that there is a God, it's the only realistic stance. Anything else would be out of pure WANT or WISH for there to be a God.
You might say, "Well Stasis, this must mean that you WANT there to not be a God."
Nope. Why would I want that? I am an optimist, but that doesn't mean I have to believe there is a God out of pure optimism. That's the problem with religion, people are taught that God is true and that anyone who denies its existence has a negative outlook on life and are sometimes just bad people. Like I said before, I wish I could believe that there is a God, but it's impossible for me to do so without proper justification. I was also raised Christian, I have weighed the evidence, I have studied science, evolution, theories, principles and psychology. After all that I simply came to the conclusion that it does NOT matter what we BELIEVE. I just choose to look at what we do know and make an educated decision. That decision is that there is not enough evidence to support the notion that a higher power is necessary. I'm not ruling it out, but until further evidence is discovered I don't need to have faith that God is not necessary.
I trust science. Because of science we are able to even have this conversation. The beautiful thing about science is that it is constantly learning, and if it is wrong, it will find itself out.
The whole point of my arguing on this thread is to get it through to you guys that the existence of God is NOT a fact. So therefore it is just an idea. An idea that does not require disproving. But through the brainwashing of religion it is taught as a fact, and this ends up pitting science against religion leaving people with a dislike for science and no desire to keep their minds open to scientific evidence. Science has NO need for religion, but religion desperately needs verification from science which it has not yet received.
At a time where we need the sharpest scientific minds to keep up with the advancing of technology at an exponential rate we are still teaching our kids that people just appeared on this earth standing upright and that evolution is false.
THAT is what scares me.
Scientists are not debating on whether or not evolution happens, they are studying the rate and intensity that it happens.
FACT: If there is a God, it uses evolution as a means to alter its creations.
There is no longer a need for religions such as Christianity. One day we will have evolved beyond the need for mysticism. What is now considered myth was once religion, and what is now religion will someday be myth.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein
If you would like to see what religious brainwashing does to the minds of people, just take a look at http://www.godhatesfags.com
After reviewing that site, tell me, are those people optimists or pessimists?
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 20 July 2000).]
 
Optimist, of course, as I said previously.
Yes, I have made the decision to be an atheist. But you have to understand that for the first 18 years of my life I was a born again Christian. I know the Bible practically by heart. I have one of the most complete understandings of the Christian religion that's possible. I've had religious experiences. I've felt God inside me.
So don't accuse me of making an uninformed or biased decision.
I now understand that everything I felt was simply neurochemical.
You see, atheists and theists experience the exact same sensations in life, we just label them differently.
------------------
Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
 
It is hard for me to read some of these posts, and at the end come to the realization that human kind is losing faith. All of the information that is being thrown in our face is forcing everyone to beleive that they have all the information they need, when infact it is creating a generation of ignorance. You know, you think, but you also feel. No science has not even come close to discovering any truths. These theories and labels are not truths, they are the last resort, as we cannot fathom the truth. I do not mean to say that reality is false. I do mean to say, open your eyes and your hearts. What is that feeling that you can't ignore, all the days of your life. What is guilt? What is pain? What is love? What is life? What is that beautiful feeling that we feel when we have done something right, or when we look up at the sky and feel all the senses of comfort we are capable of feeling because everything in our life is going just right? How can you deny a higher presence, it is all around you. These things aren't logic. There is some sort of driving force behind our being, giving us an understanding between right and wrong. And those who are subject to wrong, then have the wonderous opportunity to see what is right choose what is right.
Christianity, maybe. Buddism, maybe. Non-Denominational, maybe. Other, mabye. But all of these hold universal truths. Truths that if we live by, we will live righteous, happy, and fullfilling lives. Before you call something impossible, brainwashing, inconsistant, ect. study it, try to use it or live by it with an open mind. It may not be for you, but there are parts of it that are for you, which will help you find what is exactly for you alone. Seems to me like not believing in a higher power is starting to be "popular". "Yeah dude, I'm a loner, I don't have to answer to anyone, no boundries man, chillin'." That attitude is for the weak, the lazy, for those who don't care enough about themselves enough to do the right thing in a time when everyone else is doings something different. I am not saying that a faith is right, some people live justly and righteously without participating in a faith religiously. But they to take part in universal truths to do so, and I believe that sooner or later, those universal truths will steer them toward a path and a faith that they feel comfortable with, a part of a greater whole, which leads to...........
 
Trancendance: I point no fingers nor make any accusations, for I too have lead the Christian life, emerged in what I believe the worst of the Christian faiths, Catholicism. I do ask though, you said you've felt God inside of you, at that time didn't you know that these were chemical reactions taking place in your body, and if so why did you attribute them to God then but not now?
In my experience, which is fairly vast I believe, I've found, and not to sound like I'm preaching, that those who once were found end up becoming lost again. Basically those who once believed, lose the faith, think God is dead, or formulate some other answer. This is good, shows that the person isn't being lead blindly down a path, they question their surroundings. And maybe for those of us who choose to believe, we are seen as weak by those who don't believe. Sometimes we're seen as needing something to grasp onto to find some feeling of peace knowing that there is someone out there, but I don't think this is bad, it keeps one grounded. If you don't have something to believe in then what keeps you within moral and real bounds. One final thought, if these just chemical reactions, what then causes the actual feelings and emotions that these chemical reactions produce.
Peace
One more pondering, ever thought that God is actually our subconscious...?
 
Red- I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone seriously who says that science has found no truths.
And Plague- It's consciousness that allows our to feel sensations. Although, animals without consciousness still react to sensations, so... (and I really don't want to get into a discussion about consciousness here, either.) I do respect your judgements because you've clearly thought them out.
I think many of you who disparage atheism, like Stasis said, have a skewed understanding of what it is. Atheists are moral, loving people. If you think that you can't have morality without a god, you're deceiving yourself.
------------------
Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
[This message has been edited by Trancendance (edited 20 July 2000).]
 
Morality without God, call it "Humanism"?
I would be interested in the discussion about consciousness, that too is a perplexing and intriguing topic in itself. You have to be a sentient creature to have consciousness, there in every sentient creature is conscious , thus they have feelings....?
 
"Seems to me like not believing in a higher power is starting to be "popular". "Yeah dude, I'm a loner, I don't have to answer to anyone, no boundries man, chillin'." That attitude is for the weak, the lazy, for those who don't care enough about themselves enough to do the right thing in a time when everyone else is doings something different."
- ReadLeader5
See what I mean?
"No science has not even come close to discovering any truths." - RedLeader5
I love it when someone uses their computer (science) to argue against science. Unbelievable.
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 20 July 2000).]
 
Hmmm I love God.
Might as well think positive...
thinking negative won't get you anywhere but if thinking positive might then try to believe that way there IS something else for us.
 
I think, the one question here that CANNOT be answered is, what started it all.
i mean, i have seen various comments by people saying, if the universe created itself- big bang, etc etc, where did the basic chemical components come from to start off with, to be able to create a universe???
well, in answser to that, well no not answer, just merely a way of saying do not rule out scientific theories because of that.
It can be turned around and can be said, if god created the earth- who created god, where did he/she come from, what made god....
so, the specific origin, that everything is linked to- cannot be answered any way here.
So, we can say that people who believe in scientific theories, rather than religion, esp, God cresting life and everything, can be just as comfortable in this as eligious people.
i mean, where did god come from, where did all the chemicals come from????
this, i believe can never be answered.
But, i am not ruling out completely the existance of a higher being, but i like to stick to logics.
there is no proof for the existance of god, and there is evidence to prove scientific theories corect, or close to some or the truth.
When it is all weighed up, there is more pointing towards science, rather than Existance of any higher being.
And that is enough for a lot of people to rule out the existance of what christians call god, or what any other eligious people call their god/higher being.
------------------
In a time of ancient gods, warlords and kings... a land in turmoil cried out fo a hero.... she was xena- a mighty princess forged in the heat of battle.
The power, the passion, the danger ..... her courage would change the world.
 
I don't belive there is an after life though I do belive there is something more power than our selves, I belive that in our great mother, our home, this planet we call earth. I belive that there are great forces within and around our home and that we all are part of a greater sceme, we are here to live in harmony with our home, when we die our bodies (well before we started all this illy funeral stuff) are recycled back into the earth that we came from. Each and every living thing on this planet from the single celled organisms all the way through to human beings has a life force we live to better our selves and all those around us, iincluding those little single celled organisms. So live your lives to th fullest but when that time comes be at peace for you are giving back to this world that we take so much from.
------------------
-=<{X-Ray}>=-
=============
"Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them."
--Albert Einstein
 
X-Ray... I'm speechless.
That completely kicked ass. You pretty much summed it up for me.
Thank you.
 
I admire environmentalists. I really do.
These are the people who are trying to save our earth, whatever way it was created, we are destroying it, so i think an issue bigger than "where did this come from", would be "look what is happening".
Yes, we are advancing in things we do- medical breakthrough's, but these are created huge population increases, altho it is natural for population to increase, it is not natural for it to increase as rapidly as it is. And developments- housing, and anything of the sort is killing off what was created, over what i belive to be, millions and millions of years. The earth, by science, was said to have been dry, hot, and all kinds a yuk with radiation due to the fact that ozone was not created then, what happens if this is a very long cycle, and the earth as we know it will become what it was when single-celled organisms 'ruled the earth', and did not create oxygen or anything. Life, as we live and know it, will cease to exist.
So, it is all good to find out how we got here, but i think 90% of the energy that goes into that, shoudl go into preserving this place, and doing what we can to regenerate things that are being lost and started to become extinct.
Yes, i have kinda gone off the subject here, and i apologise for that (*sorry =Þ*), but
Think of how many things have become extinct because of humans advancements, not just naturla selection- sure things will go extinct because the earth itself is still changing, but most of the extinction of things is because their environments are destroyed, or altered in some way- and WE are the cause.
well, i think enough talk off the subject and back on to it, hmmmm
well, i think i have said all i can say until another point arises, but i will say...
Stasis Thanks dude, and i will commend you on all your comments made in this thread- very informed, i may not understand every point as i am yet to learn some shit, but from what i do understand....You are a bit of the genious here (heh)
*hugs*
ciao
------------------
In a time of ancient gods, warlords and kings... a land in turmoil cried out fo a hero.... she was xena- a mighty princess forged in the heat of battle.
The power, the passion, the danger ..... her courage would change the world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top