A very dark topic...Read at your own risk.

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Its called FAITH: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
Someone with faith needs not truth or explanation, they just know. Those that believe in God have faith in his existence.
Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
Most people have beliefs, few have faith. For those that believe there is no God, do you have faith that there is no God? Most do not have faith that there is no God because they have had to examine evidence and come to the conclusion that there is no God.
In the end its a battle of faith vs. belief. Religion might have been developed to answer the questions that cannot be answered. Science answers the "how", religion answers the "why".
 
Exactly Plague. Religion creates an answer for "why". If the answer was true then there would be no need for faith. Faith is completely unnecessary. Do you have to have faith in gravity for gravity to work? When you're driving, do you have to have faith in your brakes in order for them to work? If you stop believing in your brakes do they stop working? No. Faith is completely unnecessary except to make man feel better about the notion that there is no purpose to his existence.
The whole point is that there is no "why". I understand that this is something that you don't want to believe, it's basic human nature. You'd rather have faith in a divine purpose for your existence, understandable.
Just know that if there is a God that exists that can create anything it desires with nothing more than its breath, it has no need for us.
You can create as many answers for "why" as you want and have faith that they are true. It's merely wishful thinking. Know that some of us are NOT capable of having faith in those mythical answers. That would serve us no purpose at all. I'd rather keep learning about what we do know about our universe than settle on early man's imagination of what it is.
I'll trade faith for knowledge anyday.
 
Learn about both, understand the physics, mechanics and history of how things work. However faith does not play into your examples...there is proof of gravity, there is proof that my breaks will or will not work. However, there is no proof that there is or is not a God. This is where belief and faith seperate. I'm not quite sure what side of the point you're debating, but the intellectual conjecture is welcome.
[This message has been edited by Plague2040* (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
So in your hypothesis you're stating that life in itself has no point? What then seperates living things from non living things? Does life not have a point? Don't think of it as "divine" intervention, but rather there has to be some point in life, and if there is some point in life then the "why" question must persist.
 
Plague, you're not catching my drift here. Faith is not necessary. It applies to everything we have been talking about. You're right, we have proof of gravity, no faith necessary. We have proof that your brakes work, no faith necessary. We have NO proof that unicorns exist, we don't need faith that they don't exist. We have no proof that God exists, so therefore we don't need faith that God doesn't exist. Having faith in God does not make God exist, except for in your cranium.
Belief and faith do not really separate. Faith is just a stronger word for belief. It implies that you're fairly sure that your belief is true.
Faith and beliefs will NEVER change what IS. Either it IS... or it ISN'T.
I don't know how to explain this any better. The point is, it doesn't matter what you believe.
 
Why must there be a point or meaning to life? Why can't it just be a pointless, meaningless, random existence?
CREATE YOUR OWN MEANING!
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
 
isn't it funny, how people think they have come up with the most origional, most profound idea ever?
You aren't the first, nor will you be the last to ponder this idea.
and I personaly fail to see why this perticular topic should be so "dark and depressing"
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
 
Highly agreed Trancendance!
Thanks to those who conjectured, my brain needed this mild exercise.
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"If you can't beat them, confuse them." Harry S. Truman
"Try not, do or do not, there is no try" Yoda
"It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" Winston Churchill
"Me want cookie" Cookie Monster
~~Just Float'n~~
 
plague --
you brought up an interesting point i thought on page 2.
you mention einsteins theory... very interesting.
heat.
we all give off heat.
thermal energy.
when we die... we get stone fucking cold.
the keyword being cold.
where does that heat go?
where is it transferred to?
to a different place?
a different dimension perhaps?
we'll never know for sure how we all got here.
so debating and arguing over origin,
even though entertaining and very educational... is moot.
the future on the other hand...
where do we go?
where do we end up?
can we know, understand?
can our minds fathom?
peace.
-c
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raving --
until death do we part.
[This message has been edited by DJ LCF (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
Why? Why not?
The typical human thought is this, "well, we're here, so there must be a point." Why must there be a point? If we couldn't question our existence then we wouldn't worry with "why". But because we did evolve to the point where we can question our existence we automatically assume we have a purpose. The ENTIRE arguments for the existence of God pretty much contradict themselves.
God can create anything with His breath. - Why would he need humans?
Well something had to create matter, must have been God. - If something had to create matter, then something also had to create God.
God has always existed. - Then why couldn't the universe?
If we find evidence of the existence of life past or present on Mars, what would be the purpose of that? If we found life on Mars then it would prove that where the necessary conditions for life exist, life will form. This would determine that life pretty much grows like a fungus where it can. It would also provide more evidence for the theory that we evolved out of slime. This wouldn't necessarily prove that there is no higher power, but it would leave no room for something as the Christian God, earth is the center of the universe ideology.
Then the big question would be, why did this higher power set the parameters in the universe in such a way that life can form accidentally when the proper conditions are met?
What would be the point in that? It would look to me like you could consider yourself one big experiment or one big accident.
Call it what you want, it still won't change anything.
smile.gif

"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man -- who has no gills." - Ambrose Bierce
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
Keep up the fascinating dialogue folks! Geez this is fun...I am soooo swamped at work today, and I can't join in, but I love seeing thinking minds at work!
 
Not only is there thermal energy, but what about the chemical energy created by conscious thought? Everything is a series of evolutions, who's to say when you die you don't evolve into some other form other than fertilizer.... For those who chose to see nothing after life, doesn't that paint a bleak picture of life?
Personally I'm a dreamer, another theory of mine is that those who live in the now vs. those who live in the future, clash. The dreamer is afraid of the possible realities of the realist, while the realist is afraid of the possible realities of the dreamer.... What if there was a God (dreamer perspective), the realist who believes not would have their beliefs turned upside down, not a very comforting thought. And the same goes for the dreamer, what if there was no God. No one is right or wrong, two different answers/perspectives to the same question. Neither one can be proved or disproved, however when violence erupts over this question, that's where I draw the line. For me its a matter of keeping ones cool and intelligently pondering this question that will eventually bring resolution.
[This message has been edited by Plague2040* (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
i shared a beer wiuth god once. really..i did. let me explain.
you see, this was the first time i had ever done acid. in fact , it ws the first time i had done any drug at all, except drinking, which i had done only once before. so we got this acid, and it was kinda weak, so we convinced these guys to go buy us some beer. so im drinking, and im looking into the sky, and i see a light. so im looking at this light and decide that its god, and that he's drinking to.
thats my story and im stickin to it.
i love psycho-active hallucinations
oh, and please note that i saw god, not God. i dont belive or condone the practice of christianity or catholosism.
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-Spencer
Subconcious light gets through somehow
Yet I fail to notice
That I'm heading for the ground
 
plague --
when we die (the traditional physical sense)...
chemical, electrical, thermal, all energy... is absent from mind and body.
an EEG will show flatline... zero brain activity.
you are suggesting that we continue to exist?
on what level?
personal theories?
you really are a dreamer
smile.gif

-c
 
So let me guess all you Athesis believe we were created from monkeys? I cant grasp the concept of being an ape! I dont think I could of ever swung from a tree by my damn tail!!! You guys have wonderful and intellegent points, but let me guess you guys are probably the poor souls that believe there is no such thing as love. And you dont need any one right? Just asking...
I dont have a religion I dont go to church preach to people that they are wrong for the stuff they do or the way they act. I am not going to tell everybody that having a religion is the way to go, because it isnt!!
I have a relationship with my "Higherpower" It seems I have more happiness (even without Drugs) believeing that there is someone out there who loves me so much he would give his son up for me! We dont have anything but love peace and happiness to prove God is there, but that is all I need.
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If you are sad, only you can make you happy. Try and find out!!
 
Personally, I do believe there is a higher being. I don't believe in all that evolution crap. But that's just my opinion, I could certainly be wrong. But I definitely agree that religion is just a crutch for people to lean on. Some of us need hope,security, fellowship, etc. to stay sane in this crazy fucked up world. Fortunately I am not one of those people. I haven't been to church since I was about 15 and I do not have a problem accepting the fact that after I live my short life here on earth, I will be no more. Most people can't accept this and say I'm a negative person and I must be depressed as fuck, but I think it makes me a stronger person KNOWING my fate.
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*4 out of 5 dentists recommend supporting your local 81*
 
hey 2sense-short I'm glad you were able to read through most of the posts and had an open enough mind to be kind in your response. It is interesting to note that most of those people who say they are atheists or agnostics simply state what they are, and the reasons why they are, while you seem to feel "pity" for those of us who don't believe the same as you...you don't seem to believe it is possible for people to be happy without "god" in their lives...but believe me it is
smile.gif
And yes, I believe in love, and as independent as I am, I do indeed need other people! Hey my friend, I disagree with your 100% belief in some higher power I have never seen, never felt, but I respect it! How 'bout them apples?
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"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."
-Jules de Gautier
[This message has been edited by AJe (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
"I cant grasp the concept of being an ape!" - 2sense
Exactly.
But you can easily grasp something as simple as, "God did it."
I rest my case.
[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
Ok, there's really nothing more I need to say at this point. If I have sparked just a tiny shred of doubt in any of your minds that has led you to question what you have been told, I suggest that you don't suppress those thoughts, seek 'em out, look up information, make an educated decision for YOURSELF. Even if it means that you choose not to make a decision. The worst thing you can do is just choose something that has been handed to you out of laziness.
I suggest you start with trying to understand what exactly agnosticism is.
Read Robert Ingersoll's essay, Why I Am an Agnostic. http://www.dailyobjectivist.com/Spir/whyiamanagnostic.asp
It will DEFINITELY make you think. Thinking is NOT something you should be afraid of. If, after all your searching you end up back at your original religion, great, because at least you'll have ended up there on your own reasoning.
"Believe not because some old manuscripts are produced, believe not because it is your national belief, believe not because you have been made to believe from your childhood, but reason truth out, and after you have analyzed it, then if you find it will do good to one and all, believe it, live up to it and help others live up to it." - Buddha
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own-- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." - Albert Einstein
Thank you, drive thru...
Stasis
smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Stasis (edited 19 July 2000).]
 
My father passed away 5 months ago and I struggled to believe in an afterlife. I went to amazon.com and bought a book called "Life after Life" by Raymond A. Moody, Jr. M.D.. If that book doesn't at least make a half believer out of some of you, then there is something seriously wrong with your brains. Hundreds and hundreds of real stories and reports from people who have died and come back.
 
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