A very dark topic...Read at your own risk.

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Trance, damn, I couldn't have said that better myself. Are you sure we don't share a brain?
I totally agree with that. I usually lump atheists and agnostics into the same pile (including myself). When I refer to myself as either atheist or agnostic, the term I use depends on who I'm talking to. Most people don't even understand that the original definition of atheist was, "one who has no knowledge of god." Which, in all actuality is everyone. So when speaking to believers I just say I'm agnostic, mainly because they don't automatically relate agnosticism with "evil" connotations like they typically do with the word "atheism". The fact is, atheism is understood by very few.
And of course I'll close by adding some of my favorite quotes on this subject:
"I contend that we are both atheists, I simply believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you'll understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts
"God made me an atheist, who are you to question His wisdom?"
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Stasis
 
You know I feel Sorry for all you guys who doesnt believe GOD exists. It has been apparent in my life many many times the true reality of God. The only people that fuck up this world is ourselves, and our own 'freewill'. Given you have a right to be depressed and lonely in a world that could careless about love and happiness, but just think about the last two words i just said.... LOVE & HAPPINESS!!!Who do you think could give you gifts so precious and innocent?
Have you ever been so happy you could cry(without Drugs)? A emotion so big you feel like you could fly if the ground would just let you go. That was a gift from God. Or fallen in love? A dream so real no arms could fully harness the beauty of it? the stoner smile without the weed. the beautiful light that consumes your heart and mind? What harmones could give you that?
If all you see is the bad...and dont like it...then stop bitching and help change this place the way it was.
And to our first post:
Remember Moses and how God helped bring his people out out of slavery. Or how about Noah and the ark. How he was so shamed at the evil his people had gotten THEMSELVES into he had to help the only family that still believed him.
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If you are sad, only you can make you happy. Try and find out!!
 
Counterpoint:
I believe in the value of organized religion as practiced today.
I believe that 9 of the ten commandments are excellent rules to live your life by.
My future children will be raised in the religion of my future wife.
There are millions of people for whom their faith is the cornerstone of their strength. I will not deny them their strength.
I believe that athiesm is a religion, and that it has its own breed of zealot.
I believe that asking for proof of Gods existence is pointless. If you live by the principles of that belief, what is gained by the proof? And if you don't, what good is obedience through fear?
I respect the beliefs of others, and I have the conviction of my own. I do not seek to convert anybody to my way of thinking on the subject.
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Yes, though - we did think eerily alike there for a moment...
 
i as just thinking about the same exact thing last night.
there is evidece(sp?) about the bible in isreal, you should read an article about it in the june issue of readers digest, it discusses it pretty well there. if you cant get ahold of an issue, i'm sure thay would have something about it on their website.
what do you guys think of "bible codes"?
Jennifer
 
2sense-short-
I think I speak for all of us atheists when I say thank you for your pity, it truly means so much.
And how cute that some of you still believe in the Bible. Awwww, isn't that so precious?
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
 
I do not think this is a dark subject, instead it is an uneasy subject, as issues such as religion are deeply rooted in our history as a species.

As comforting as it is to take trust in a deity, science and psychology dictate my view on life, as they make the most sense to me.

Point no.1.

Everything that we know, as individual persons, is determined by our interpretation of the senses. Our interpretations are dependent on our innate senses as humans, or instincts; as well as our taught sense of self we recieve from our parents (these teachings underlie virtually all aspects of our lives for a very long time). With age we formulate our own ideas, which ironically are almost always variations of the teachings of our peers. We also, however, are able to accept ideas completely independent of others' influence (albeit still a variation of someone elses' idea). This is the beauty of the human mind; which leads to point no.2.

Everything we ever think is still an interpretation based on all the things we learn in our lives. Therefore, fundamentally, every interpretation is a function of our brain. Our truth, our very essence (or psyche, or soul), is a product of our brain. Now, this does not mean that our thoughts are not "true". It simply means that things are true because they make sense to what we have been taught, or what we have learned on our own. So, what might be true to me might not be true to you, since our backgrounds, fundamental teachings from our parents, and life experience are so much different than the others'. I think this is essential to keep in mind when dealing with new people, because as strange as someone elses way of thinking might be, chances are it makes complete and absolute sense to them. This is why it is important not to judge people, which is unfortunately a characteristic of our current society.

Like I said earlier, the most amazing thing about the human brain, is that we have the ability to think about these things! By formulating new ideas, and passing those new ideas on to other people, and our kin, we come closer and closer to a more perfect way of thinking (the rule of trial and error, yes?)

Anyway, got lost in that...Oh yeah.

This is why there is no god (to me). God is an idea that makes sense to a lot of people because it provides protection from the endless thinking most people goes through. It presents a preformulated guideline for life, and in the end, makes people happier. More importantly than solace, it makes sense to people because of how interwoven in society religion is. If something is accepted in absolute truth your entire life, there is no reason (to you) to change it. However, all of these emotions and thought reside in the persons consciousness. And when the brain dies, the consciousness dies with it. Absolute nothingness.
Blech, losing my train of thought. Most of the stuff I am talking about doesn't even make complete sense to me yet. These ideas are something I have been working on for the last few months (I am coming out of a deep deep depression), and these are the ideas that make the most sense to me right now. Who knows, as complex as the human mind is, maybe in 20 years I will be devoutist christian
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okay...this is a log of what i told a friend right after writing that long ass thing...i think this better sums up what i was trying to say...
jpcx99: this isn't the best thing i have written
jpcx99: these are ideas that are kind of new
jpcx99: so i am not too articulate with them yet
jpcx99: Dead Link
jpcx99: my post is the last one "psychonaut"
jpcx99: egad i am reading this now and it turned out like crap..oh well
jpcx99: it makes a lot more sense in my head :-)
Adam the Reyes: im reading it and it sounds pretty good
jpcx99: i might just be my own worst critic
jpcx99: what i am basically trying to say in that long ass rant is...everything we are exists within our brains
jpcx99: our soul, or psyche, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is in our brain
Adam the Reyes: ya.
jpcx99: and who we are is determined by the way we interpret the world around us
jpcx99: and the way we interpret thing depends highly on what our parents have taught us, and things that are commonly accepted in society, and ideas that we formulate on our own.
Adam the Reyes: i agree
 
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So Transcendence, it sounds like you're saying that there is no way of knowing whether or not there is a god, and that you live your life with the possibility of god being irrelevent to your way of living, and I think I could agree with that line of thinking.
I have a dear friend who is a very devout born again Christian. At one time this would have put me off, because Hard core Christians can be quite unforgiving. But this man is the sweetest, most understanding, loving and open-minded person I've ever known. He represents to me the beauty of Christianity and of all religions, really. And the fact that he solidly believes in god has as much to do with who he is as my own beliefs do with me.
I also have a very good friend who is 100% certain that there is no god. End of story. My dad is the same way. Both define themselves as atheists, both are good people, and both of them think that it is rather silly of me to not completely disallow the possibility of god.
At the same time, I care only marginally more than they do about whether or not there is a god. What seems most important to me about the whole topic is what each person does with their beliefs, and how they choose to apply them to their lives.
Is this person good? Do they treat me with as much respect as I treat them? Do they live honorably, or at least as honorably as flawed human beings can live? Can they accept me as fully as I can accept them? If so, I can love them whatever they believe in.
I find a great deal of beauty in this life, even in the sorrow that I have felt throughout. Ultimately, I have relied upon myself and on people that I love to achieve what I have, not on the belief of a higher power.
If I died today and there is a god, I am convinced that he/she/it would accept me with open arms and love for the life I have lived. If there is no god, then I will die as countless others have died, and I will have lived the fullest life I could possibly have lived, and that's what it's really about for me.
[This message has been edited by AJe (edited 18 July 2000).]
 
lol Trance, it's safe to say that 2sense is evidence about the fact that atheism is understood by very few. It would be unrealistic to even think that someone like that could even comprehend our arguments. "God did it" is about the bulk of their vocabulary when it comes to theories.
As far as Bible codes go, it's bunk. You could find anything you wanted to in a book with thousands of words. They have applied the Bible code method to other books to see what they could find and guess what?! Moby Dick predicts asassinations!! This is no joke. But the Bible codes are.
Here's info on the absurdity of Bible codes: http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/biblecodes.html
And here's the Moby Dick codes (this one is great): http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html
 
As you get older..and closer to death, it is comforting to believe that there is a place you go to after you die. Some place where you will see the people you love that have died before you. Whether or not there is a God, or an afterlife cannot be known to those living. If you die and there's nothing, will it matter? You won't even know. I just want to live life to it's fullest, do everything I want to do, and know that I had a great life. What happens afterwards doesn't concern me.
*PLUR*
 
I still think this discussion reveals more about individual psychology than it does about the existence of God, or lack thereof.
The detailed responses speak for themselves.
 
i took my first philosophy class last semester.
i learned about nietzsche. what a man.
i highly recommend that you, necro and those who agree that man created a "god", read some of his work.
one of his books, can't remember which (has "moral" in the title, i believe) discusses how people came up with the idea of god.
i shall attempt to explain it, but i doubt i'll do it any justice. even a couple of my x-ian friends saw this as a "possibility".
i'm using a parallel here, to help.
eagles= alexander the great (good, strong people)
sheep= commoners
many years ago, the conquerors were thought to be "good". they were strong, smart, and essentially, superior to the lower "classes" and those that they conquered. a great example of a good person like this is "alexander the great". alexander's father was out conquering, when a messenger said his son had been born (alex.) and that his son was a "god". (back in the times of polytheism) his father, confused, asked how he as a mortal could have a god for a son. the messenger explained that a volcano erupted and some astrological happening all occurred during his birth.
alex was told he was god his whole life. while everyone else bowed/kneeled and asked for help or whatever when they prayed, alex stood on a mtn. top and told the gods he would do stuff for them. (i have a point here, i promise)
now, (here's the parallel; you can replace eagles with "conquerors/superiors", and replace sheep with "commoners") eagles are superior to sheep. eagles are smart and can easily kill a sheep. the sheep is obviously weaker/dumber than the eagle. the sheep, also know this. so, they're jealous of the eagle and the sheep want to be considered "good". so, the sheep create this theory that their weakness IS their strength. their humility means they ARE good. also, they have their strength vested in something HIGHER than even the eagles. therefore, the sheep become the "good" ones, and because the eagle does not believe in (or even KNOW of) this "higher power". so, the eagle soon surrenders to the sheep's mentality and does not want to be classified as "evil".
i REALLY hope that made sense. my phil. teacher did a REAL good job explaining it.
*i* need to really read some nietzsche...
 
Good point, Stasis. Pearls to the swine. (How's that for a Bible reference!)
And nice link about the Moby Dick code.
For those of you who would like to read a more accessible critique of Christianity and religion in general than, say, Russell or Sartre or Nietzsche, check out "How we Believe." It's brand new, and illustrates many reasons why modern religion and theism are but a farce. Here's a link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/071673561X/o/qid=963950947/sr=2-1/103-2955588-7571816
More advanced critiques of Christianity include "The Anti-Christ" by Nietzsche and "Why I am Not a Christian" by Russell.
"Candide" by Voltaire and anything by Hume are also enlightening. Existentialist works, especially "Being and Nothingness" by Sartre are great, although VERY dificult to understand completely.
And anything from the Analytic school of thought (including Russell), which is my favorite, treats God as utter nonsense.
Actually, the best thing you could do would be to major in Philosophy, as I did. After a few years of that, you'll finally figure out what you believe.
At first, Atheism was sort of a religion to me, a central part of my life. Now, I realize that the question of God's existence is quite irrelevant, so I don't much care that much anymore.
But of course, I still try to sway a few theists over to the dark side now and then.
MWAH HA HA HA HA!!!
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
 
Belisarius, you are right! That's what is so great about this thread!
Transcendance...I thought I detected a philosophy major in you...
[This message has been edited by AJe (edited 18 July 2000).]
 
It's funny that you say that Beli, because what we're trying to get across is that the concept of "God" is completely due to individual psychology.
Man created God in his own image.
God = Whatever the individual wants it to be. Which means it can be ANYTHING. Man defines god, so therefore man's god does NOT exist except in his own mind. If there is a higher power, I think we all as humans should let it define itself.
As for me, I'd rather not insult whatever higher power that might exist by calling it "God" and applying attributes of my choosing. I would rather not limit a higher power by giving it human attributes such as the Christian's version of "God". (If the God of the Bible does indeed exist, it's safe to say that we're all fucked).
Beliefs aren't necessary. They never change what IS.
I suggest anyone who is questioning the existence of god start with looking at the root of the concept. Understand why it is necessary for humans to believe in mysticism. Check out books such as, "Why People Believe In Weird Things" by Michael Shermer. Or, "The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold"
 
I believe I am God. And so are you. We have no way of "knowing" so why not pick the most empowering, positive belief system you can find? The most empowering one I've found so far is we are all God, and our job is to remember that. Can't prove it, but so what? Given the choice between I have the power to create my world, or I have no power in the creation of my world, I'll take door number 1. Why not? If I'm wrong, so what? I didn't have any power anyway. If I'm right, I'm God.
Love and Peace,
GD
 
If There isnt a God then why would someone make up something just to fool us so we're not scared to die I think that there may not be an afterlife but what made us some aliens from outer space like scientology explains or was it god which judism say or is there a savior which christianity explains or should we be agnostic or athiest or what, we are not sure. we believe what we were born to believe thats why I believe in God and Jesus but who knows maybe if I wasnt brain washed to believe christianity then I may believe something else so who is right or wrong I guess we'll find out in the near future when we die so believe what you want to and maybe what you believe will come true and then.. who knows.......
 
Necro, I'd just like to in all honesty thank you for posting that. I've never been much of a believer in the bible, so our "purpose" has always nagged the fuck outta my brain and i've gone through a dozen different solid beliefs in my life, but your conclusion is exactly what i came up with a couple of months ago and have felt like shit ever since. (I swear it's always in the back of my head no matter where i'm at or what i do.) I don't feel any better about life after seeing this but you've made me realize that there are other people who think on the same down-to-earth brain waves as i do.
 
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