A Struggle Inside AA

Any decentralized organization whose component branches are independent are going to run a gamut from 'traditional in structure and function' all the way to 'off the fucking deep end'. That's sure been my experience of the other big almost-religion that's alcohol free: Freemasonry.

It's a shame that such a group should sully the good name of AA. But as an organization with no central authority, there's not a whole lot that can be done about it, except getting the word out. It's not as if Midtown has bought a franchise that can be revoked.
 
n4k33n, have you ever hung out with the old-timers? The people with 5-10+ years of sobriety? Seems like you only see one side of AA, or you hang out with chronic relapsers . . . .
 
Fried Man said:
Tripdoctor, I must defend AA because it does work. Like they say, "it works if you work it.
Click to expand...

My program is guarunteed to work and it "works if you work it"
Step 1: Don't Drink
step2: See step 1

Sorry to be sarcastic but the real truth is that AA doesn't work. Statistically speaking their success rates are terrible . AA is also a highly manipulative environment that involves traditional cult tactics to promote and continue the group, AA is a warm fuzzy meme. Clearly, AA purports to be a program for behavioural modification, how can they claim any successes if silly little disclaimers are perpetually chanted that if you don't get your "spiritual experience" then you didn't do it right (It works if you work it). Worst of all is that it's now common practice for courts to mandate attendence at meetings like AA. That's a blatant violation of a freedom of religion not to mention a big copout and these sham AA resources could be provided legitimately by more effective resources if the AA thing hadn't cornered the market.

More power to anyone who gives up alcohol (4 years for me on sept 7) by any means includeing AA but I think that common knowledge should be amended to understand that AA is far from an effective solution and greater resources should be expended to find better solutions.
 
See my problem is not with AA/NA itself it's with being FORCED to go by the court. I totally respect that AA/NA can work for some people, and I think it's great that you're always guaranteed a place to go, need be. The only thing is I feel the desire to stop using truly lays within. I know AA/NA can offer great guidance to some people who really have struggled and dont know where to go. And every case is different. For me, I DIDN'T want to stop using drugs, I wanted to stop going to jail. That leaves me in a very rough spot when I'm forced into a room of NA/AA. And I think the problem with NA/AA now adays is so many people are forced to go that it makes it more difficult for people who are going for themselves. And when people are appearing to work these steps but their intentions aren't totally for the program, i think it hurts otherpeople and gets passed along...

I have not gone back to an NA meeting and only go to AA now when at a local NA meeting, my girlfriend was approached by a guy in the room and was offered by him for her to have sex with him for money and all the heroin she could want. I wasn't present at the time, but this guy I've seen around the rooms previous. He claims he has 10 years clean. He sponsors people , and he preys on all the young girls. That is a total sin and disgusting, and this is a guy who is "helping" other addicts along.
 
That's an interesting read... How do I tell the people on Drug Court who will incarcerate me as failing to comply with probation that their forcing me to go to meetings is illegal. :-) Every week when I go before my judge, she asks me if i have a sponsor, if i have a homegroup, if i'm working the steps. My probation officer checks my NA/AA signature card. My 3 nights a week of Outpatient are based around 12-steps and going to meetings.

Hipocracy at its finest, gotta love the age we live in.[
 
I have a friend that was a girl that was trying to be sober by going to a meetings and two of the old timers invited her to his apartment and basically raped her (after making doing some strange 'addiction chants'), she stopped going but was too afraid to tell the police or anything.
 
n4k33n said:
This is just the standard AA response and avoids the issue completely.

I've been to over 150 meetings, had a sponsor, been exposed to the full AA program in all aspects. My best friends are regular members. I've given the program a fair chance and watched it for years when I was in and out of rehab. Now I'm clean, and I was only able to do it by breaking from the program completely and going to a rehab without this or any other religious program. This freedom is what allowed me to get clean.

I could write books on the subject, but my personal experience with AA/NA has demonstrated a few facts to me.

1. AA is religious - Regardless of doublespeak and rationalizations its obviously a religious organization. Even if you gave them the benefit of the doubt and don't equate "religion" with "spirituality", they still organize and distill your spirituality into a system, which is the same end. If that doesn't make it painfully obvious, do some research on the history of AA on the internet. Their aim is pretty clear. Even the supreme court agrees! If prodded I will add to this.

2. AA doesn't work - Most research puts the success rate the same as spontaneous abstainers. One paper demonstrated its harder to get clean on your own after being exposed. The success rate is abismal. Its popularity as a treatment doesn't demonstrate its efficacy.

3. AA ruins lives and kills people - The vast majority of people I know in AA (and I know quite a few from different backgrounds, states clean times [1day-20 years], drugs, etc. They are quite across the board. The program has brainwashed my friends to think they are completely powerless over their actions. Soon, watching their friends in the program relapse constantly, they eventually fall to the same fate. Now they're powerless and hopeless. AA is a black hole of sad stories all the way to basketball diaries style horror.

The program teaches everyone that theyre not special and everyone follows the same cycles. Powerless hopeless people who now think that the gutter is the end will make it a self fulfilling prophecy. I just saw it happen again to my best friend in February. So many others have dont it, that its true impact and importance are lost on the group as being natural progression. They're addicts, after all, its what happens. "relapse is part of recovery"

The all or nothing abstainance only rules create this harm. Measuring life in days instead of happiness. When people relapse, they end up relapsing HARD compared to a "natural relapse". This has also been demonstrated in studies. These relapses end up killing people and causing collateral damage.

This policy is so careless and without regard for individual human life. This shit is so entrenched that it will never be questioned. It would be like questioning the virgin birth. Its part of AA dogma now.

4. On a societal level, AA reinforces addiction. - AA has created a recovery monoculture based on religious principles. Although a certain percentage likes AA and it works for them, it fails for the vast, vast majority. But not only do they leave still drinking, they leave thinking they are powerless to a "disease" which they can only cure with meetings that don't work for them. This is creating a permenant self described "addict" population where before there was only a fraction.

I'll start with that. When I have time later today I'll cite my sources on those claims.
Click to expand...

This is a Brilliant post dude, deserves to be quoted again .
 
dude...ppl at AA pressuring you to sleep with other members??
shit son, i need to join that one.
when i was in AA it was like...old ladies and shit
 
What a complete lack of info

Opinions are fine but they should be informed.
The essence of the steps is not to find "GOD" persay.
The idea truly is to recognize that we are not the only ones in the universe- being that most addicts/alcoholics have a tendency to be fully self- absorbed and selfish.
We clean the wreckage of our doings and address fears that prohibit us from functioning normally in society in the steps. As that process happens we begin to see that we are not stuck in this shitty fucked up world anymore that we had created in our heads, we begin to participate in the world. That is the "higher power." It is specifically stated numerous times in almost every meeting that there is no requirement for a god or religious affiliation.
14 yrs of AA and I still today don't really believe in "god." I believe that I function better when I remove the bullshit from my head and function like the rest of society- in that I see a lot of joy or euphoria and that to me is spiritually moving.
For the people bitching about it (drug court etc etc) You fucked up. You got arrested you did something you weren't supposed to do. You acted like a social degenerate and are concerned about the consequences imposed on you? How about not fucking up in that manner and subjecting yourself to the law? It makes you sound twice as sick and stupid. Man up- quit the shit and get on with your lives. The vendetta against other organizations is really just simply a way of avoiding any responsibility for your irresponsibility.
Grow up.
 
big a said:
For the people bitching about it (drug court etc etc) You fucked up. You got arrested you did something you weren't supposed to do. You acted like a social degenerate and are concerned about the consequences imposed on you? How about not fucking up in that manner and subjecting yourself to the law? It makes you sound twice as sick and stupid. Man up- quit the shit and get on with your lives. The vendetta against other organizations is really just simply a way of avoiding any responsibility for your irresponsibility.
Grow up.
Click to expand...

Yeah they got caught but they're being forced to "work" something that has not been proved to be anymore successful than not participating in it. Being a "social degenerate" is not a prerequisite for a drug arrest. As for breaking a "law",right it's a law but it's a law that's unconstitutional and goes against basic human rights. I don't see the big deal in breaking an unjust law.

Who are you to judge someone's personal decision and to tell them to grow up?
 
big a said:
For the people bitching about it (drug court etc etc) You fucked up. You got arrested you did something you weren't supposed to do. You acted like a social degenerate and are concerned about the consequences imposed on you? How about not fucking up in that manner and subjecting yourself to the law? It makes you sound twice as sick and stupid. Man up- quit the shit and get on with your lives. The vendetta against other organizations is really just simply a way of avoiding any responsibility for your irresponsibility.
Grow up.
Click to expand...

Wow, you were so high on your little spirituality trip that you totally misread what I wrote regarding drug court that I really can't hold you to such an ignorant statement. There is no complaining for me as to what i've done. It's being forced to believe in something that I don't believe in. Go find someone randomly on the street and FORCE them to go to NA/AA and work steps. And then when they reject it, go on and on about god and spirituality and your 14 years and how they need to man up and grow up.

You must be so far along in recovery that you forgot you might have at one point done something illegal whether it be purchasing or using drugs, because if not, why the fuck are you on this message board? So to go and attack me for getting caught is nothing more of a sign of the BETTER-THAN mentality you obviously learned in your little 12 step rooms.

Sure, maybe I should have just taken the easy way out and taken my prison sentence, that would be manning up too right? Or go on blindly never questioning anything, not using intellgience to try and come to an understanding of things, instead of following on blindly from a group of people who think they have such a greater purpose than the next man in society.

By you coming on here and attacking people instead of trying to create dialog just proves pretty much everything everyone said in these posts. BTW, isn't your philosophy attraction rather than promotion? Because the shit you're promoting makes AA/NA not look attractive at all. 14 years clean? Might be time to go hit your steps again buddy cause you're certainly not doing your fellowship and justice..

And I said many times I don't have a problem with NA/AA I have a problem with being forced to go.... but judging by your ignorance and a lot of ignorance I see around the rooms, it makes me even more bitter about my situation. Thank god i'm where I am and not where you are though.
 
Last edited:
I used to go to AA when I was only sixteen.

And I never touched a drop of alcohol.

Got sent there from a rehab program because I got caught smoking pot on the football field of the high school.

I can assure you, AA is for the birds.
 
Don't have time to read whole thread but felt compelled to put in my .02 for what it's worth.

I have to agree with Friedman on this (at least parts that I read).

It worked for me. I fucked around for a few years before I finally got sober after 18 years of drinking/drugging through the support of AA.

If you cannot see the difference between organized or conventional religion and AA then I would venture to say that you a) have never been
b) have trouble with abstract thought or c) don't listen .

I think there is some merit to the 'cult' moniker as after a time it brings it's own dogma and can be constricting. In the sense that one must 'outgrow' dependence on AA for sobriety and broaden their horizens. Find other ways to fill the void left from using. It taught me coping mechanisms I never learned as an adolescent/young adult because I was too blasted to learn them. Using was my coping mechanism.

I stayed sober for 12 years. I stopped going to meetings after 5 years. It helped me. It has helped others.

It isn't for everyone but until you have burned as many bridges as most who eventually get sober there I wouldn't discount it. It saved and changed my life for the better and I am grateful for that.

We had a saying that I observed to be true in my time there.....anyone under 30 hasn't destroyed themselves enough to work the program.

And that Midtown group does not meet my definition of AA
 
I'm sorry but I don't see how what I put into my body is the governments business. It hurts no one except myself.
Click to expand...

C'mon n4k33n, are you serious?

Anyone who has a problem with drugs ends up affecting other people with their addiction. I'm not saying anyone who USES drugs, but anyone who has a PROBLEM with drugs.

I'll give one example of how it hurts others. DRUNK DRIVING.....that's a pretty basic one. Who drink and drive, i'd say you got a PROBLEM.
 
Psychedelic Gleam said:
"
There is no evidence belief in ANY higher power helps you fight addiction and I would argue it absolutely hurts you.
Click to expand...
The evidence that it works can be seen from the transformation from Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob talking in their kitchen to AA groups in over 160 countries. There is no evidence that it works for everyone, but it wouldn't exist for the past 70+ years if it didn't work for a portion of alcoholics.
you're right. theres nothing in AA or NA about fighting your addiction. the whole point is to give up and stop fighting. I know i couldn't stop using on my own will power, i tried and tried and tried. I fought heroin and alcohol with everything i had with no success. The only way i could get clean was getting locked up(one year ago i was sitting in jail). I was such an atheist almost my entire life, but i was so tore up physically and emotionally. I was so beat up and alone, my life had become so lame I knew i needed to find something else.


I used to be like 90% of the people replying to this article, bashing AA or NA, thinking it was some stupid cult. I also used to be in so much DENIAL because everyone i chilled with got high and drank like i did, therefore my use was normal. Drugs were my entire life, how the hell was i supposed to give up everything i knew and loved? For me when the pain exceeded the highs and i had no where to turn, homeless and suicidal, was i still going to be a stubborn jackass and refuse to give something a chance?
I understand 12 step programs aren't for everyone. Thats cool, whatever. I just think it sucks when people go around trashing something they know little to nothing about.

The article above does not represent a single AA meeting i've ever been to. But the article does represent the same exact things I hear uninformed people say about AA.
Then again, what do i know? maybe Rochester NY just has way better AA meetings than everywhere else. The meetings here are about loving life and helping the suffering alcoholic, not replacing alcoholism with sex/coffee/more meetings/cigarettes.

The last thing i'm going to say is that if you're on the fence and not sure about AA, at least go check it out with an open mind before you bash it. ok i'm done ranting
 
Fried Man said:
C'mon n4k33n, are you serious?

Anyone who has a problem with drugs ends up affecting other people with their addiction. I'm not saying anyone who USES drugs, but anyone who has a PROBLEM with drugs.

I'll give one example of how it hurts others. DRUNK DRIVING.....that's a pretty basic one. Who drink and drive, i'd say you got a PROBLEM.
Click to expand...

They end up affecting other people on an emotional level and because of their legal status(e.g. theft to support habit). Causing emotional pain is not illegal, and is a consequence of many of our actions, not just drug use/abuse. It's simply a part of life.

As for drunk driving, what's your point? People are going to drive under the influence as long as we're driving and intoxicants are still available. Drugs don't make you drive under the influence, bad judgement does.
 
The drunk driving reference is just another thing to reinforce what the people are saying about how the laws are totally misguided. Alcohol is legal. Alcohol can be deadly. There's laws such as drunk driving to guide how you use alcohol. Go to a bar, get smashed, stay at home..etc Just don't get in a car and drive, because that can directly effect other people..

When you say drugs effect other people, I would have to say it's directly a cause of their legality(or lack of). No one's on the corner selling bottles of liquor,and no one's fighting over liquor store territory.

What I gather from people in AA groups as compared to NA groups is the stories. A lot of people in AA were simply just sick and tired because of the misery directly related to the drug. A lot of people in NA were simply sick and tired because of the misery indirectly related. i.e. stealing, going to jail, shitty drugs making them feel bad. Yes it's all caused by their use, but it's severely exaggerated by the lifestyle needed to get the drugs. Don't get me wrong, plenty of AA people are there cause of DWI's and such just as plenty of NA people are there cause of probation and such but what i'm trying to point out is the people who actually make it to the rooms on their own.
 
Oh come the fuck on. This is the most far out there fucking negative PRspin on AA that I've ever come acrossed. Just read the "news" article unbiasedly and see how rediculous it is. It's on par with "single blackman on coke rapes a white lady....Ban Coke!"

This "Mid Town" place is either one of two things...it's either an innocent AA group, that has spiraled out of control and into a cult over the years..or maybe it's simply one "hardcore, this is it, you must quit" AA community/group. It has a heirarchy system with teens washing cars and shit...maybe it's to give them a sense of self worth/responsibility...you know, training them to focus on the real word, getting a job and keeping one, paying your own way, and doing it without poisoning yourself daily with alcohol? I don't know which of the 2 possibilities it is, but i do know that AA has worked/does work/and will continue to work, for THOSE IT WORKS FOR. No it's not for everyone. Yes there will/and are some fucked up wacko groups/communities/individual loonies out there.. That's AA's fault for some reason? It's a very well known nationally reckognized organization that everybody's aunt and uncle know about...it's not a government organization..and it's non-profit..so do any of you really expect there to be any legitimate "policing" of AA meetings/groups?..aside from the fact that AA is to get one's life back together, (or "together" for the first time), and sober...so who's going to morally/have the "ethical balls" to go breaking down doors like those? Then again, I'm ignorant, an asshole, and have contributed nothing positive to Bluelight, and I'm a wreckless junky. chao.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top