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A Struggle Inside AA
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erosion
Bluelight Crew
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I'm sorry but I don't see how what I put into my body is the governments business. It hurts no one except myself. They have laws against it, but that doesn't mean I'm a social degerate.
And thats where a lot of people go wrong. At the very least, our laws should be written according to our moral code - not the other way around.
People are going to use drugs regardless of the laws. Its been that way throughout history.
What should be a basic human right is a criminal act, punished by prison or otherwise marginalized. everyone accepts this.
If you really sit down and think about that. Entire lives spent in prison for nothing? Someone who was depressed, or wanted to have fun, or who had to use to avoid withdrawl? Or someone just bored? Is that what we should send people to jail for?
The users life has been thrown away now, but it never stops there.
Drug money corrupts cops, gives power to what amount to warlords in our own cities, death death death hopeless developing nations - kids spying on parents, parents spying on kids - fear... everywhere, outcasting,
races/countries with rich heritages being sold away by their own for the chance of riches. entire societies end up becoming neurotic . farmland burned out and nowhere to see - but miles of poppies to the horizon.
kids growing up in the inner city with drug dealers as idols. some grow up and deal, some become cops. cut from the same mold just trying to fufill a escapist fantasy like they saw in the movies.
spineless media exploiting fear at every turn to make a quick buck. cops exploiting small time dealers for a quick bust & buck. junkies run a quick scam for a few quick bucks for a quick hit.
grandmothers getting shot, pain sufferers killing themselves over their pain in a system where suffering is way down the list on consideration for prescribing painkillers.
the doctors who do care being federally imprisoned. but only after the shameless media ruins their name and humiliates their family and friends.
when will it all end? at the end of this black hole you would think we're helping someone. but we're not.
Denial is a powerful thing. Its going to be hard for society to come to terms with the fact that this policy has done nothing but kill, imprison, and impovrish, with ruinous corruption on every level.
so...
I have to admit though, your way sounds a lot easier.
AA and prohibition go together like penut butter and jelly. The giant logical holes in each give rise to a way of living.
Just "let go and let God". It will all work itself out, ... right?
And thats where a lot of people go wrong. At the very least, our laws should be written according to our moral code - not the other way around.
People are going to use drugs regardless of the laws. Its been that way throughout history.
What should be a basic human right is a criminal act, punished by prison or otherwise marginalized. everyone accepts this.
If you really sit down and think about that. Entire lives spent in prison for nothing? Someone who was depressed, or wanted to have fun, or who had to use to avoid withdrawl? Or someone just bored? Is that what we should send people to jail for?
The users life has been thrown away now, but it never stops there.
Drug money corrupts cops, gives power to what amount to warlords in our own cities, death death death hopeless developing nations - kids spying on parents, parents spying on kids - fear... everywhere, outcasting,
races/countries with rich heritages being sold away by their own for the chance of riches. entire societies end up becoming neurotic . farmland burned out and nowhere to see - but miles of poppies to the horizon.
kids growing up in the inner city with drug dealers as idols. some grow up and deal, some become cops. cut from the same mold just trying to fufill a escapist fantasy like they saw in the movies.
spineless media exploiting fear at every turn to make a quick buck. cops exploiting small time dealers for a quick bust & buck. junkies run a quick scam for a few quick bucks for a quick hit.
grandmothers getting shot, pain sufferers killing themselves over their pain in a system where suffering is way down the list on consideration for prescribing painkillers.
the doctors who do care being federally imprisoned. but only after the shameless media ruins their name and humiliates their family and friends.
when will it all end? at the end of this black hole you would think we're helping someone. but we're not.
Denial is a powerful thing. Its going to be hard for society to come to terms with the fact that this policy has done nothing but kill, imprison, and impovrish, with ruinous corruption on every level.
so...
big a said:
I have to admit though, your way sounds a lot easier.
AA and prohibition go together like penut butter and jelly. The giant logical holes in each give rise to a way of living.
Just "let go and let God". It will all work itself out, ... right?
Last edited:
Don't have time to read whole thread but felt compelled to put in my .02 for what it's worth.
I have to agree with Friedman on this (at least parts that I read).
It worked for me. I fucked around for a few years before I finally got sober after 18 years of drinking/drugging through the support of AA.
If you cannot see the difference between organized or conventional religion and AA then I would venture to say that you a) have never been
b) have trouble with abstract thought or c) don't listen .
I think there is some merit to the 'cult' moniker as after a time it brings it's own dogma and can be constricting. In the sense that one must 'outgrow' dependence on AA for sobriety and broaden their horizens. Find other ways to fill the void left from using. It taught me coping mechanisms I never learned as an adolescent/young adult because I was too blasted to learn them. Using was my coping mechanism.
I stayed sober for 12 years. I stopped going to meetings after 5 years. It helped me. It has helped others.
It isn't for everyone but until you have burned as many bridges as most who eventually get sober there I wouldn't discount it. It saved and changed my life for the better and I am grateful for that.
We had a saying that I observed to be true in my time there.....anyone under 30 hasn't destroyed themselves enough to work the program.
And that Midtown group does not meet my definition of AA
I have to agree with Friedman on this (at least parts that I read).
It worked for me. I fucked around for a few years before I finally got sober after 18 years of drinking/drugging through the support of AA.
If you cannot see the difference between organized or conventional religion and AA then I would venture to say that you a) have never been
b) have trouble with abstract thought or c) don't listen .
I think there is some merit to the 'cult' moniker as after a time it brings it's own dogma and can be constricting. In the sense that one must 'outgrow' dependence on AA for sobriety and broaden their horizens. Find other ways to fill the void left from using. It taught me coping mechanisms I never learned as an adolescent/young adult because I was too blasted to learn them. Using was my coping mechanism.
I stayed sober for 12 years. I stopped going to meetings after 5 years. It helped me. It has helped others.
It isn't for everyone but until you have burned as many bridges as most who eventually get sober there I wouldn't discount it. It saved and changed my life for the better and I am grateful for that.
We had a saying that I observed to be true in my time there.....anyone under 30 hasn't destroyed themselves enough to work the program.
And that Midtown group does not meet my definition of AA
C'mon n4k33n, are you serious?
Anyone who has a problem with drugs ends up affecting other people with their addiction. I'm not saying anyone who USES drugs, but anyone who has a PROBLEM with drugs.
I'll give one example of how it hurts others. DRUNK DRIVING.....that's a pretty basic one. Who drink and drive, i'd say you got a PROBLEM.
dankstersauce
Bluelighter
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The evidence that it works can be seen from the transformation from Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob talking in their kitchen to AA groups in over 160 countries. There is no evidence that it works for everyone, but it wouldn't exist for the past 70+ years if it didn't work for a portion of alcoholics.Psychedelic Gleam said:
you're right. theres nothing in AA or NA about fighting your addiction. the whole point is to give up and stop fighting. I know i couldn't stop using on my own will power, i tried and tried and tried. I fought heroin and alcohol with everything i had with no success. The only way i could get clean was getting locked up(one year ago i was sitting in jail). I was such an atheist almost my entire life, but i was so tore up physically and emotionally. I was so beat up and alone, my life had become so lame I knew i needed to find something else.
I used to be like 90% of the people replying to this article, bashing AA or NA, thinking it was some stupid cult. I also used to be in so much DENIAL because everyone i chilled with got high and drank like i did, therefore my use was normal. Drugs were my entire life, how the hell was i supposed to give up everything i knew and loved? For me when the pain exceeded the highs and i had no where to turn, homeless and suicidal, was i still going to be a stubborn jackass and refuse to give something a chance?
I understand 12 step programs aren't for everyone. Thats cool, whatever. I just think it sucks when people go around trashing something they know little to nothing about.
The article above does not represent a single AA meeting i've ever been to. But the article does represent the same exact things I hear uninformed people say about AA.
Then again, what do i know? maybe Rochester NY just has way better AA meetings than everywhere else. The meetings here are about loving life and helping the suffering alcoholic, not replacing alcoholism with sex/coffee/more meetings/cigarettes.
The last thing i'm going to say is that if you're on the fence and not sure about AA, at least go check it out with an open mind before you bash it. ok i'm done ranting
phr
Ex-Bluelighter
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Fried Man said:
They end up affecting other people on an emotional level and because of their legal status(e.g. theft to support habit). Causing emotional pain is not illegal, and is a consequence of many of our actions, not just drug use/abuse. It's simply a part of life.
As for drunk driving, what's your point? People are going to drive under the influence as long as we're driving and intoxicants are still available. Drugs don't make you drive under the influence, bad judgement does.
jersey drape
Bluelighter
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- Mar 15, 2004
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The drunk driving reference is just another thing to reinforce what the people are saying about how the laws are totally misguided. Alcohol is legal. Alcohol can be deadly. There's laws such as drunk driving to guide how you use alcohol. Go to a bar, get smashed, stay at home..etc Just don't get in a car and drive, because that can directly effect other people..
When you say drugs effect other people, I would have to say it's directly a cause of their legality(or lack of). No one's on the corner selling bottles of liquor,and no one's fighting over liquor store territory.
What I gather from people in AA groups as compared to NA groups is the stories. A lot of people in AA were simply just sick and tired because of the misery directly related to the drug. A lot of people in NA were simply sick and tired because of the misery indirectly related. i.e. stealing, going to jail, shitty drugs making them feel bad. Yes it's all caused by their use, but it's severely exaggerated by the lifestyle needed to get the drugs. Don't get me wrong, plenty of AA people are there cause of DWI's and such just as plenty of NA people are there cause of probation and such but what i'm trying to point out is the people who actually make it to the rooms on their own.
When you say drugs effect other people, I would have to say it's directly a cause of their legality(or lack of). No one's on the corner selling bottles of liquor,and no one's fighting over liquor store territory.
What I gather from people in AA groups as compared to NA groups is the stories. A lot of people in AA were simply just sick and tired because of the misery directly related to the drug. A lot of people in NA were simply sick and tired because of the misery indirectly related. i.e. stealing, going to jail, shitty drugs making them feel bad. Yes it's all caused by their use, but it's severely exaggerated by the lifestyle needed to get the drugs. Don't get me wrong, plenty of AA people are there cause of DWI's and such just as plenty of NA people are there cause of probation and such but what i'm trying to point out is the people who actually make it to the rooms on their own.
DexterMeth
Bluelighter
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Oh come the fuck on. This is the most far out there fucking negative PRspin on AA that I've ever come acrossed. Just read the "news" article unbiasedly and see how rediculous it is. It's on par with "single blackman on coke rapes a white lady....Ban Coke!"
This "Mid Town" place is either one of two things...it's either an innocent AA group, that has spiraled out of control and into a cult over the years..or maybe it's simply one "hardcore, this is it, you must quit" AA community/group. It has a heirarchy system with teens washing cars and shit...maybe it's to give them a sense of self worth/responsibility...you know, training them to focus on the real word, getting a job and keeping one, paying your own way, and doing it without poisoning yourself daily with alcohol? I don't know which of the 2 possibilities it is, but i do know that AA has worked/does work/and will continue to work, for THOSE IT WORKS FOR. No it's not for everyone. Yes there will/and are some fucked up wacko groups/communities/individual loonies out there.. That's AA's fault for some reason? It's a very well known nationally reckognized organization that everybody's aunt and uncle know about...it's not a government organization..and it's non-profit..so do any of you really expect there to be any legitimate "policing" of AA meetings/groups?..aside from the fact that AA is to get one's life back together, (or "together" for the first time), and sober...so who's going to morally/have the "ethical balls" to go breaking down doors like those? Then again, I'm ignorant, an asshole, and have contributed nothing positive to Bluelight, and I'm a wreckless junky. chao.
This "Mid Town" place is either one of two things...it's either an innocent AA group, that has spiraled out of control and into a cult over the years..or maybe it's simply one "hardcore, this is it, you must quit" AA community/group. It has a heirarchy system with teens washing cars and shit...maybe it's to give them a sense of self worth/responsibility...you know, training them to focus on the real word, getting a job and keeping one, paying your own way, and doing it without poisoning yourself daily with alcohol? I don't know which of the 2 possibilities it is, but i do know that AA has worked/does work/and will continue to work, for THOSE IT WORKS FOR. No it's not for everyone. Yes there will/and are some fucked up wacko groups/communities/individual loonies out there.. That's AA's fault for some reason? It's a very well known nationally reckognized organization that everybody's aunt and uncle know about...it's not a government organization..and it's non-profit..so do any of you really expect there to be any legitimate "policing" of AA meetings/groups?..aside from the fact that AA is to get one's life back together, (or "together" for the first time), and sober...so who's going to morally/have the "ethical balls" to go breaking down doors like those? Then again, I'm ignorant, an asshole, and have contributed nothing positive to Bluelight, and I'm a wreckless junky. chao.
Adrenochrome
Ex-Bluelighter
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DexterMeth: AA is on par with placebo
Maybe even under, considering the reported rapes and other strange accultic practices
Maybe even under, considering the reported rapes and other strange accultic practices
I'm not gonna disagree with you on that.DexterMeth said:
Why is there always this type of debate about one 12 step group or another?
It's pretty simple in my mind. You go to meetigs and with some luck and persistance (very important) you meet some people who you can relate with. Hang with them and see where it leads.
That's where the steps came in. They helped to teach coping mechanisms that I still use. How to relax ( a little...still have a little fun once in a while) and understand my beheviour.
It's not for everyone but it has survived and for quite a few assisted in a significant life transformation.
It's pretty simple in my mind. You go to meetigs and with some luck and persistance (very important) you meet some people who you can relate with. Hang with them and see where it leads.
That's where the steps came in. They helped to teach coping mechanisms that I still use. How to relax ( a little...still have a little fun once in a while) and understand my beheviour.
It's not for everyone but it has survived and for quite a few assisted in a significant life transformation.
MDPVagrant
Bluelighter
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AA was designed for and originally intended for "end stage" alcoholics. That has changed, and IMO it should not have.n4k33n said:
"End stage" alcoholics are powerless. Chances are they've physically ill, cognitively confused/not thinking straight, emotionally in a deep depression and possibly unable to even walk half a block to get groceries. These people ARE powerless. Very doubtful they are able to make rational decisions and choices, and if so it's all forgotten a half hour later swilling from a bottle.
IMO AA is pretty accurate and helpful when applied to extreme cases of rock-bottom alcoholism, and becomes progressively less helpful the further away a person is from that state. For cases that resemble just drinking a bit too heavily, the whole thing can be very detrimental and dangerous -- no argument there.
![[nl]mdma](/community/data/avatars/m/46/46037.jpg?1554214538){kind=avatar}
[nl]mdma
Bluelighter
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there's some rather interesting information on the AA at http://www.orange-papers.org
jersey drape
Bluelighter
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Awesome link, thanks. After just getting back from my "sentenced" aa meeting, I can honestly say I didn't learn anything.
It seems to me the real way AA/NA works is to divert your thoughts and thinking so as time passes, things work themselves out as they would have from simply not drinking without AA...
It seems to me the real way AA/NA works is to divert your thoughts and thinking so as time passes, things work themselves out as they would have from simply not drinking without AA...