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A serious thread about online poker

Fjones said:
My apologies, I must have missed bedhead's post somehow. I agree 100% with what yippeeskippee said about the aggro player and hands like AT. Regarding the rest, I agree with that also, though I wouldn't call those "tells." The stats like VPIP and such are stats and data, which I consider to be different from "tells." The three stats he mentioned are very important, and are often used as the standard "slash" stats to evaluate players.
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yes, they are stats. my point was they are about the closest thing to tells available, and when I see some guy is 56/3 and he 3-bets me when I have AT I fold. Based on his stats, I would call that player reraising is a reliable tell.
Regarding the patterns mentioned, I agree that those are useful also, but I file that under the category of "tendencies," not "tells." Most certainly, if you see a player doing the same stupid things, you should take advantage of that.
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how would a player's tell of chewing on a chip when they have a monster hand be any different than a "tendency" to overbet as a bluff?

You can use different words, but they're basically the same thing - information to see your opponent's hand without a superuser account.
 
Fjones said:
The guy with KK should not have messed around, and also, why is he sitting with only 1/3 of the buy in? Always sit with a full buy in!

Also, when soemoen is playing like an insane person (as I was), don't mess around with trash hands. Wait for good ones and crush him.
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Trip 4s, eh? =D Bet everyone was pissed and went on tilt after that hand hehe.

Couple more questions if ya don't mind (appreciate you taking the time time to answer questions in this thread, really do..)

Regarding the guy with KK, what should he have raised to? $2? all-in considering he was shortstacked? Obviously he wants 1-2 callers, right?

Did you lose frequently when you started out? How long did it take you for playing to become 'profitable'? Maybe not hundred dollar days profitable, but to the point where you were constantly winning...
 
Playing multiple tables in a tight, paint-by-numbers fashion is the only way to reliably make money.
 
Yippee Skippy said:
yes, they are stats. my point was they are about the closest thing to tells available, and when I see some guy is 56/3 and he 3-bets me when I have AT I fold. Based on his stats, I would call that player reraising is a reliable tell.

how would a player's tell of chewing on a chip when they have a monster hand be any different than a "tendency" to overbet as a bluff?

You can use different words, but they're basically the same thing - information to see your opponent's hand without a superuser account.
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Look, I don't know what your point is. We agree, we just are debating semantics.

A "tell" is something the player says or does ASIDE from his actual bet amounts. It is not proper to say, "Oh, he raised all in, that's a tell!" A tell would be, "Oh, he fidgeted with his chips and looked away from me as he raised all in."

A player's actual betting habits and patterns are his tendencies, not his tells.

Yes, if a player is 56/3 and you have AT and he 3-bets you, you should fold. So what? That isn't a tell. That's just smart poker. You should have a really good reason NOT to fold AT to a 3-bet. At doesn't match up well against a 3-Bet very often. Even bad players do not usually reraise with A9 and under.
 
Bedhead said:
Trip 4s, eh? =D Bet everyone was pissed and went on tilt after that hand hehe.

Couple more questions if ya don't mind (appreciate you taking the time time to answer questions in this thread, really do..)

Regarding the guy with KK, what should he have raised to? $2? all-in considering he was shortstacked? Obviously he wants 1-2 callers, right?

Did you lose frequently when you started out? How long did it take you for playing to become 'profitable'? Maybe not hundred dollar days profitable, but to the point where you were constantly winning...
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Two EP Limpers, an EP raiser, and a MP call from a loose maniac at the table (me). This is a clear all-in. But who cares, because he shouldn't be sitting there with 3 dollars, exactly for this reason! You get KK and you have only 3 dollars? How stupid is that?

I lost for a few months, then I broke even for a few months. Then I started to make profit. Different people progress at diffeent rates.

I make money but not nearly as much as I would like, for various reasons.
 
I made a decent living from online poker for a year or two, mainly from SNG's and then switched to cash games mainly heads up (1vs1) and some 6 max. Was a profitable player up to the $1/2 $200NL tables sometimes $2/4 $400NL, but didnt play much higher than that. nick was/is feldo on stars. I got fair amount of profits on sharkscope mainly from lower limit multi table sngs, I always sucked at larger multi table tournies though and never made much from them.

I got so burnt out from playing poker every day though, I'd play anywhere from 9-18 tables sometimes more if it was SNGs, and often for long hours. My sleep schedule was terrible, it starts to affect your moods and emotions if you aren't winning. When you are winning it feels amazing but a downswing would stick in my head and make me irritable/unpleasant person in other areas of my life.

My main downfall in poker was my benzo habit, I would often go on xanax/valium binges always mixed with lots of alcohol. Multiple times I lost 5 figure bankrolls playing while high only to start again from nothing to rebuild it, then make the same stupid mistake. It took me a while to realise I just dont have the discipline to play online poker for a living, so Ive pretty much quit these days.

I do miss poker though and Im sure ill give it another shot in the future, although it's not certain how long the games will be easily beatable and profitable. Already in the time I was playing the games have gotten alot harder and it looks like they are continuing that way.

Fjones, how long have you been playing, are the games any tougher than when you started?
Were you ever a regular player on stars?
 
basix said:
I got so burnt out from playing poker every day though, I'd play anywhere from 9-18 tables sometimes more if it was SNGs, and often for long hours. My sleep schedule was terrible, it starts to affect your moods and emotions if you aren't winning. When you are winning it feels amazing but a downswing would stick in my head and make me irritable/unpleasant person in other areas of my life.
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This is very true. I hate many aspects of doing this. But I cnanot think of any other way to make a minimum of $25 an hour, and I see the potential to make $50 an hour if I just get my shit together and stop wasting my bankroll on stupid shit.

I was never a fan of cash games. I find them boring and irritating.

I started in the fall of 2004 on Party Poker when the site was still in its early stages, but I mostly dabbled for three years until the winter of 2007, when I started to play more seriously.

I think the games have gotten a bit tougher, but the fields are still pretty weak.

I never played on PokerStars. I hate the interface.
 
Yeah the relatively easy money was what kept me coming back to poker, the worst thing now that I work a regular job is trying to change my spending habits.

And yeah I know what you mean about wasting bankroll on stupid shit, for me that was MTT's, which I was never really profitable in. I played them to blow off steam and have some fun, which wasn't a good idea as far as my bankroll was concerned.
 
Poker skews one's perception of money. How can I take money seriously after throwing around hundreds of dollars at the 2 5 tables in Atlantic City?
 
^ this is a good point.

further, i believe that playing with tournament chips in a casino is 2 layers of abstraction away from actual money and online in a tournament players are 4 layers of abstraction away from real money so it's no wonder sometimes that people sometimes make marginal calls for large amounts.

alasdair
 
I want to discuss some late tourney hands, if you guys don't mind. I've had an interesting run where I went out around 20th or so in three straight tourneys (of 3-400 people). Respectable, but only won ~2-4 times my buy-in. I want to get some thoughts on some key hands.

1. I have 99 in MP. Raise 3xBB. Folded to BB who re-raises all-in. I've previously backed down in the face of such raises. I think BB is loose-agressive. My stack is about 12 BB's after the raise. I....?

NSFW:
Actual result: I called. He had AQ. Mine held up.


2. Very late. Blinds are high. I have an M of around 10. Folded to me on button. I have A5. I.....? What I actually did was throw in my usual 3xBB raise [note, I'd been playing at a very tight table and opponents had generally folded to 3xBB, but this was a new table]. SB, who was short-stacked, re-raised me all-in. 4xBB more to call. I........?

NSFW:
I figured I was behind, but it was only about 30K to call into a 70K pot. I fgured I had odds. He showed me AT and held up. I figure I should have jammed the pot and made it tough for him to call.


3. Very late, I have an M of 3 after taking a modest bad beat. I'm in LP.UTG, also M of 3, goes all-in. I have A2s. I......?

NSFW:
I called, so did BB. UTG had A6, BB had AK and held up. I really don't think I can justify calling here with A2.


4. Late, with ATs. My M is maybe 6 or 7. Folded to me, can I open push?

NSFW:
I did, he had AJ, I flopped a T and he rivered the win. I cried ;)
 
alasdairm said:
^ this is a good point.

further, i believe that playing with tournament chips in a casino is 2 layers of abstraction away from actual money and online in a tournament players are 4 layers of abstraction away from real money so it's no wonder sometimes that people sometimes make marginal calls for large amounts.

alasdair
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I like the way you phrased that. The layers of abstraction is a useful way of understanding the goofy things people do. I might borrow that phrase the next time I am struggling to explain to someone why he lost to someone's T3o al in preflop call.
 
Infinite Jest said:
I want to discuss some late tourney hands, if you guys don't mind. I've had an interesting run where I went out around 20th or so in three straight tourneys (of 3-400 people). Respectable, but only won ~2-4 times my buy-in. I want to get some thoughts on some key hands.

1. I have 99 in MP. Raise 3xBB. Folded to BB who re-raises all-in. I've previously backed down in the face of such raises. I think BB is loose-agressive. My stack is about 12 BB's after the raise. I....?

NSFW:
Actual result: I called. He had AQ. Mine held up.


2. Very late. Blinds are high. I have an M of around 10. Folded to me on button. I have A5. I.....? What I actually did was throw in my usual 3xBB raise [note, I'd been playing at a very tight table and opponents had generally folded to 3xBB, but this was a new table]. SB, who was short-stacked, re-raised me all-in. 4xBB more to call. I........?

NSFW:
I figured I was behind, but it was only about 30K to call into a 70K pot. I fgured I had odds. He showed me AT and held up. I figure I should have jammed the pot and made it tough for him to call.


3. Very late, I have an M of 3 after taking a modest bad beat. I'm in LP.UTG, also M of 3, goes all-in. I have A2s. I......?

NSFW:
I called, so did BB. UTG had A6, BB had AK and held up. I really don't think I can justify calling here with A2.


4. Late, with ATs. My M is maybe 6 or 7. Folded to me, can I open push?

NSFW:
I did, he had AJ, I flopped a T and he rivered the win. I cried ;)
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My two cents, I would be curious to hear others --

1) I need to know your stack size in any hand analysis. Stack size is probably the most crucial aspect of a hand. Position is right up there in importance also (Which you did mention).

Oops, you did mention stack size (I would suggest putting stack size at the beginning). You made the right call. With 15 BB, you cannot afford to raise-fold. There is no shame in getting it in with 99 against a LAG in the BB who might be playing a broad range of hands.

2) Critical error in my opinion. If the SB only had 7 BB and you only had 15 BB, your move should have been all in, though, you don't know what the BB was going to do, right? I need his stack size also. I think you should open fold or open push. A stack of 15 BB is too small to be getting 3 BB into a pot with a garbage hand like A5. It doesn't play well post flop and it doesn't match up well against people's playing ranges pre flop.

You clearly have to call his shove though. If you are getting 2.33 to 1, you call with literally any 2.

If you had open pushed, he was calling you anyway, but at least you would have made a more optimal play than being forced to call his shove.

3) You have an M of 3 !?? you have to call this. Your stack is a non-entity at the moment. Here is a chance to battle against a similarly desperate player. What better opportunity to you think you are getting if you wait? Your stack has no fold equity whatsoever. You have no ability to take down a pot uncontested. By calling, you hope for the double up PLUS the blinds, which is a great opportunity to make something out of nothing. It sucks that the Big blind called, but you have to get it in there.

4) Yes. If your M is 6 or 7, you can open push any two cards as long as you have decent position or a decent hand. an M of 5 and you can open push any two in any situation.
 
potentially stupid question, but the only 'acronym' I'm not getting from the above couple of posts it 'M' what the hell is M??
 
"M" is a term made popular in the Harrington in Hold em book series. A friend of his whose name starts with M invented it.

It is your stack / (sum of SB BB antes)

so basically it is the number of rounds you can survive before being completely blinded out. If your M is less than 10, yuo ar in trouble, less than 7 and you are desperate, and less than 5 you are looking to push almost any 2.

It can be modified to show "effective M" which is important, because of the blinds are aboutto go up, your M is a lot less than you think.
 
Thanks fjones. In #2, BB had very small stack size (I had about twice his - I actually think my 3xBB put him all-in). As I said, I got into the mindset that people would fold, because at my other table, they were (people were folding and showing me better hands than I was raising with ;)). An error...I was tired, only excuse.

Oh, 1 more.

About two hours in. I've got an average size stack, maybe M of 20 or so. Blinds 200/400. No antes yet. EP calls. MP calls. EP has maybe 3/4 my stack, MP has me covered. No real reads. I have 77 and call on the button. BB calls.

Flop comes KT7 giving me the set. Two spades. EP bets 1200. MP flat calls. I figure there's a good chance that EP has top pair, MP has flush draw or maybe top or even middle pair. I want to chase the flush draw out, or at least make them pay, so I raise around 4800 (there's about 4000 in the pot). BB and EP fold, MP re-raises me for most of the rest of my stack (he should have just gone all-in, but never mind).

I......?

NSFW:
I pushed all in, figuring I was probably ahead, and if I was losing set over set, so be it. He showed me TT for the higher set. I hit quads on the river :D. But could I have folded? I don't think so....
 
Infinite Jest said:
Thanks fjones. In #2, BB had very small stack size (I had about twice his - I actually think my 3xBB put him all-in). As I said, I got into the mindset that people would fold, because at my other table, they were (people were folding and showing me better hands than I was raising with ;)). An error...I was tired, only excuse.

Oh, 1 more.

About two hours in. I've got an average size stack, maybe M of 20 or so. Blinds 200/400. No antes yet. EP calls. MP calls. EP has maybe 3/4 my stack, MP has me covered. No real reads. I have 77 and call on the button. BB calls.

Flop comes KT7 giving me the set. Two spades. EP bets 1200. MP flat calls. I figure there's a good chance that EP has top pair, MP has flush draw or maybe top or even middle pair. I want to chase the flush draw out, or at least make them pay, so I raise around 4800 (there's about 4000 in the pot). BB and EP fold, MP re-raises me for most of the rest of my stack (he should have just gone all-in, but never mind).

I......?

NSFW:
I pushed all in, figuring I was probably ahead, and if I was losing set over set, so be it. He showed me TT for the higher set. I hit quads on the river :D. But could I have folded? I don't think so....
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In hand # 2, if the BB was also short stacked, then it was an even bigger mistake not to push. Remember, your "effective" stack is only as big as the largest stack of your opponent. If you have 20 BB, but the three people yet to act have 7 BB, then your effective stack is 7 BB. If you do anything less than an open-push, you have made just as big a mistake as if you were the one with 7 BB and did something less than an open-push.

In the 77 hand, I have not yet finished the hand, but, Limping from the button with pocket 7s, when no one has showed any strength yet? Raise that! You are going to miss the flop 7 times out of 8. Why limp in? You are also inviting one of the blinds to try to steal the pot with all those limpers in it. I saw raise right there and take it down.

Ok, I finished the rest of the hand. You flopped a set of 7s. You are not folding this hand under any circumstances at any point in the hand. The only possible fold is at the river if there are four spades, in which case you grossly misplayed it to allow it to get to that point without being all in.
 
Thanks, you've basically echoed what I thought (I realised I played some wrong).

A further question on pushing with marginal hands late in the tourney. Is there ever a time you would slow down? e.g. just now I had A6s, A9s and A4o in successive hands. It was a tight table, and normally I'd push with any of those hands, and rely on fold equity. This time, I pushed the first two but folded the A4, figuring I was too likely to get called. It seemed to make sense at the time, but as I type it out, it sounds stupid. (e.g., if someone thinks I'm bluffing and calls with junk, that's a good thing. And if someone does have a hand, they're calling any of my bets).

So can I keep pushing with marginal hands, or should I slow down at some point? (Assume late period, M was about 7 or 8, so up to 10 by the 3rd hand. No-one had very big stacks).
 
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