A serious thread about online poker

[Fjones]

Thanks, you've basically echoed what I thought (I realised I played some wrong).

A further question on pushing with marginal hands late in the tourney. Is there ever a time you would slow down? e.g. just now I had A6s, A9s and A4o in successive hands. It was a tight table, and normally I'd push with any of those hands, and rely on fold equity. This time, I pushed the first two but folded the A4, figuring I was too likely to get called. It seemed to make sense at the time, but as I type it out, it sounds stupid. (e.g., if someone thinks I'm bluffing and calls with junk, that's a good thing. And if someone does have a hand, they're calling any of my bets).

So can I keep pushing with marginal hands, or should I slow down at some point? (Assume late period, M was about 7 or 8, so up to 10 by the 3rd hand. No-one had very big stacks).

No, that isn't stupid at all, in fact, it shows that you are thinking abotu an important aspect of poker -- how the table perceives you. I wouldn't shove light either after two shoves.

Note that it doesn't matter what the first two hands are, because the opponents do not know. So if you get KK QQ and A4, and you push the KK and QQ and get no callers, you should consider not pushing the A4, as you are likely to get called lighter than usual.

 

[Fjones]

I agree with the above two posts. Volume is key. And folks, volume doesn't mean, "I played 50 SNGs and blah blah blah...."

Volume means thousands of games, hundreds of thousands of hands.

I am not sure I understand what you said about M and BB though.

If there are no antes, then M and BB are basically the same. They will yield a different number, but the stack size they refer to will be the same.

With no antes, an M of 10 = having 15 BB. SO it doesn't matter if you use M or BB, either way , you need to play a certain way when you have 3000 chips at the 100 200 level. It doesn't matter whether you call it 15 BB or an M of 10. The appropriate plays do not change.

With antes, what is the point of BB? M is what matters there. Also, the antes usually amount to approximately one big blind, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. But I can't say I have ever seen a tournament level that had "small" antes or "large" antes.

 

[Infinite Jest]

Online it's easy though, because the pot size is displayed. So if I've got 5000 chips and the blinds are 300/150 with a 25 ante, I can see that the pot is 625 before anyone enters, and I know I've got to start making a move. Thanks for the comments. I'm going to investigate poker tracker soon, I think. Do you think it's worthwhile even at a low level? (I'm playing $5-$10 MTTs or SnG's, or very low stake cash games).

 

[Bedhead]

Can someone look at this hand and tell me if I screwed up or just got unlucky? My emotions may have played a part as well since this guy was calling/raising 4/5 hands and beating top pair top kicker w/ shit like two pair (2s and 4s). I thought I could bust him w/ pockets Qs.. but it didn't turn out that way.... (It's micro stakes...meh, but my bankroll is still small)

PokerStars Game #26193170852: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/03/21 6:40:35 ET
Table 'Memnon' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Brologna ($1.82 in chips)
Seat 3: sammm18 ($5.14 in chips)
Seat 4: dubbelfris2 ($3.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Zelda - CZ ($1.40 in chips)
Seat 6: NikolasM7 ($2.43 in chips)
Zelda - CZ: posts small blind $0.01
NikolasM7: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Qc Qh]
Brologna said, "dumbest sht I've seen all day."
Brologna: calls $0.02
sammm18: folds
dubbelfris2: calls $0.02
Zelda - CZ: folds
NikolasM7: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Brologna: folds
dubbelfris2: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [7c 4c Ad]
NikolasM7: bets $0.10
dubbelfris2: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [7c 4c Ad] [Jc]
SurfRockstar joins the table at seat #1
NikolasM7: bets $0.18
dubbelfris2: calls $0.18
*** RIVER *** [7c 4c Ad Jc] [9c]
NikolasM7: bets $2.05 and is all-in
dubbelfris2: calls $2.05
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Qc Qh] (a flush, Queen high)
dubbelfris2: shows [5d Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
dubbelfris2 collected $4.69 from pot

I probably shouldn't have pushed all in on the river... but he was playing shit cards and beating people w/ two pair, etc. Never had a 'big' hand to start with. That's why I bet all 3 streets cuz I figured he had jack shit.

I don't see how he can call on the turn when there's 3 suited cards on the board, I raised preflop, and all he has is top pair shitty kicker. I guess it was just totally irrelevant to him... I realize (now) that I may have been giving him about the right odds to call on the turn to make his flush, but I don't really think he was concerned about pot odds the way he had been playing the last couple hands...

So what gives? Did I make major mistakes?

 

[Fjones]

Here is my advice on the hand.

First of all, if you are trying to bet all three streets when you have an underpair to an ace high flop, you are going to get yourself in a lot of difficult spots. it doesn't matter if the guy is a loose player. Wen you have a pocket pair on an ace high flop, you might want to consider checking either the flop or turn. It is easier to win a small pot than a big one when you have an underpair to the board, especially if the high card on the board is an ace, the most common card people show up with in their hand.

Second, no, you should not have moved in at the river. What was the point? What hand did you think he had? If he had a flush, he is probably betting it himself, because he wouldn't necessarily put You on the flush, so he would likely value bet.

third, why would you think he would fold on the turn for 18 cents? the pot was 42 cents. You bet less than HALF the pot on the turn and he had top pair with the NUT flush draw. Why would anyone fold that hand to such an anemic bet on the turn? If you think your pair or your draw is good on the turn, make a real bet, close to the size of the pot.

Of course, in this case, you were crushed, so it did not matter. But why bet the turn at all? I am not sure I see the value in that. I am not sure what you think this guy had, but again, you implied that this guy was loose and beating people's top top with garbage two pair right? Well, you were losing to two pair at the turn. So I think you should have slowed down and controlled the size of the pot.

 

[Bedhead]

I appreciate your constructive criticism Fjones. I guess I did play it like a bonehead. My turn + river bet was fueled more by 'wtf, why won't he fold, he plays garbage hands, I've barely won a pot since I sat down' than reason.

Seems like I have a lot of work to do before my bankroll goes anywhere.

 

[Bedhead]

I got another hand that I'm not sure I played completely right.

Pokerstars Double or nothing S N G

Blinds 100/200 + 20 ante
Seat 3: StepxtheBest (3155 in chips)
Seat 5: DALMIK123 (1710 in chips)
Seat 6: squirrel22tn (4110 in chips)
Seat 8: NikolasM7 (1995 in chips)
Seat 9: Ottmann82 (2180 in chips)
Seat 10: 7Juglar (1850 in chips)
NikolasM7: posts small blind 100
Ottmann82: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kd Kc]
7Juglar: folds
StepxtheBest: folds
DALMIK123: raises 400 to 600
squirrel22tn: raises 400 to 1000
NikolasM7: raises 975 to 1975 and is all-in
Ottmann82: folds
DALMIK123: folds
squirrel22tn: calls 975
*** FLOP *** [Ad 6s 6h]
*** TURN *** [Ad 6s 6h] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 6s 6h 2d] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
squirrel22tn: shows [Qd Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)

squirrel was calling all-ins with cards like A 10 and I figured he didn't have a monster like AA or anything decent, and his re-raise was an attempt to make the initial raiser fold and collect the pot. So I pushed and figured if he had something decent like A K, I'd still be in good shape. The initial raiser folded as I expected and he called. I was in good shape before the flop, but than the ace came...

Anyway I could've played this different? Or just unlucky and nothing I can do about it? I wasn't gonna fold KK here. If I called I'd be out of position w/ half my stack in the pot, and more or less crippled if an ace came on the flop (which it did.. lawl) and I had to fold.

I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...

 

[alasdairm]

I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...

AQ is hardly a shoddy hand there. even if he's getting odds to call? i'm not sure what you mean by 'even' here.

even if he's not getting odds to call (which i think he is), he might figure this is a race with you also on an ace - or a half-decent pair - and he's just gambling to get you out. a gamble which, on this occasion, paid off.

sometimes you're going to play a hand as well as anybody can play it and still lose. if you concentrate on the decisions you've made and not the results, you'll be fien.

alasdair

 

[Bedhead]

AQ is hardly a shoddy hand there. even if he's getting odds to call? i'm not sure what you mean by 'even' here.

I meant that if you're on or near the bubble, even if you have a large stack, it doesn't make sense to risk 1/2 your stack on a coin flip - or KQ/J/10 even if you're getting the right pot odds to call. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to preserve his large chip stack and let the smaller stacks duke it out? If he'd lost that hand he would've had ~2k in chips and be even with all the other small stacks. A coin flip doesn't seem worth the risk here, IMO.

I guess I'm just trying to justify my actions and chalk his win up to dumb luck.

 

[alasdairm]

^ if we all did exactly what the book told us to do in every situation, poker would be a very boring game. sometimes you go against what the situation calls for just because you have a feeling. sometimes you do it just for shits and giggles and it pays off. occasionally you do something which makes no sense purely for the reason that it makes no sense.

like i said, some hands, you're going to play as well as anybody could possibly play them and you're still going to lose them.

alasdair

 

[Bedhead]

For some reason I thought there were seven players at the table lol...

Now that I realize there were six, it makes more sense for him to call in an attempt to knock me out in that situation. Even if he loses, he isn't crippled.

And it was a 1.10 turbo S N G btw.

 

[colors]

i've been playing on FullTilt for about 6 months.

started with play chips and went from 1,000->100,000 over a few months of learning, and then added some real money. have also played a few 'in person' tournaments lately at the casino. the skills transferred well, although the IRL stakes were fairly low.

i disagree re play chips being a bad way to learn. once you get up to around the 10,000 level, the play is on par with low stakes real money. i did a bit of reading, but i think the easiest way to learn is just experimentation with the play chips and getting as much experience as possible.

as far as 'cheating' ... yes it definitely does exist in online poker. i have seen quite a bit of it. the most common scenario IME is 6 handed SnG's and rings where you will notice a single player controlling 2 hands. there will be suspicious folding and chip feeding, auto actions, etc. a common give-away is similar handles ... in one sense or another (content, number style, capitalization, w/e). one time i was witness to a a bizarre faked conversation between a player and their alias 8). to avoid these cheaters i usually play multi table SnG's - 18 or 27 where the chances of making it to the final 9 are good if you stay focused over the first 30min.

 

[Bedhead]

Oh man, I love how when there's 6 players left the 6k stack folds in the BB to the 6th place players all-in shove which is 495 more... fucking clown. If chat wasn't disabled years of expensive therapy couldn't reverse what I was about to lay into the big stack with, that fucker.

This continues... until someone shoves and I call w/ QQ only to be up against KK, and I finish in 6th. Great.

Same fucker entered a 3 way pot w/ 1 all-in and then bets the turn and river... other stack folds (with god knows what). Big stack shows TPTK, all-in player has 2 pair (10-3o)... wtf

At the bubble they play poker as if they're trying to win every single hand... getting the small stack knocked out doesn't seem to cross their mind. They'll fold in late position with the short stack in the BB on the bubble, as if it's standard. The short stack was an idiot too.. didn't seem to figure to push w/ 2-4 BB, yet he managed to pick up the blinds + antes and accumulate chips whenever these idiots folded TO HIM. What was I doing? Why wasn't I knocking him out? I was trying to survive while getting dick for cards w/ a medium stack, waiting for the 2 bigger stacks to knock someone out.

The one pocket pair I did have (8s), where'd I called his all-in, the guy hits trips (6 3o) on the river... 8)

The big stack also rr'd someone's 3x preflop raise all-in w/ AA (showed it after everyone folded) like that's a good play???

This could've ended 15 minutes earlier than it did if his IQ wasn't <50.

Then there was that clown who re-raised my 3x bet rr preflop to all-in first hand of the SnG w/ 77 (I had KK). Needless to say I doubled up early.

Christ. Just as I'm finally building my bankroll back up too...

/rant

 

[Bedhead]

Yeah, I have seen some really really bad bubble play, and its really to be expected from alot of low limit online players, and ALOT of older players who have never read a book or played online.

I will be honest, I have played a double or nothing and had like a 7500 stack with 6 left and they are all folding to win, and I will just open shove with 4 9 or something and e veryone folds and Ill show. hehehehe, thats when I used to play smaller sngs, I have learned that karma in poker is very real, and don't ever make a bad comment/early comment/ anything like that anymore haha.

LOL.. reading my post I was MAD last night. Feeling much better today. Heh.

Turbos would be so much easier if at the bubble, everyone ganged up on the short stack.

 

[Fjones]

I got another hand that I'm not sure I played completely right.

Pokerstars Double or nothing S N G

Blinds 100/200 + 20 ante
Seat 3: StepxtheBest (3155 in chips)
Seat 5: DALMIK123 (1710 in chips)
Seat 6: squirrel22tn (4110 in chips)
Seat 8: NikolasM7 (1995 in chips)
Seat 9: Ottmann82 (2180 in chips)
Seat 10: 7Juglar (1850 in chips)
NikolasM7: posts small blind 100
Ottmann82: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kd Kc]
7Juglar: folds
StepxtheBest: folds
DALMIK123: raises 400 to 600
squirrel22tn: raises 400 to 1000
NikolasM7: raises 975 to 1975 and is all-in
Ottmann82: folds
DALMIK123: folds
squirrel22tn: calls 975
*** FLOP *** [Ad 6s 6h]
*** TURN *** [Ad 6s 6h] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 6s 6h 2d] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
squirrel22tn: shows [Qd Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)

squirrel was calling all-ins with cards like A 10 and I figured he didn't have a monster like AA or anything decent, and his re-raise was an attempt to make the initial raiser fold and collect the pot. So I pushed and figured if he had something decent like A K, I'd still be in good shape. The initial raiser folded as I expected and he called. I was in good shape before the flop, but than the ace came...

Anyway I could've played this different? Or just unlucky and nothing I can do about it? I wasn't gonna fold KK here. If I called I'd be out of position w/ half my stack in the pot, and more or less crippled if an ace came on the flop (which it did.. lawl) and I had to fold.

I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...

First of all, who cares what Squirrel is calling all ins with? You have pocket kings. He is obviously calling with any two after raising to half your stack.

Second, I haven't even read your entire post yet, but I am really concerned about the fact that you wrote this post at all.

You had pocket kings, and when it got to you, you put in the maximum number of chips possible and got called by a weaker hand. What is there to analyze here?
You are one of the small stacks, so folding into the money is not a good idea. If you fold KK here and Dalmik doubles up, then what? Now you are in bad shape and just folded the second best hand in poker.

Also AQ is an instacall there. Are you really suggesting he FOLD AQ getting almost 4 to 1? He has odds to call with any hand when getting 4 to 1.

And What is up with Dalmik? Putting in chips and folding when you are the SS with 9 BB is pure folly.

 

[Fjones]

I meant that if you're on or near the bubble, even if you have a large stack, it doesn't make sense to risk 1/2 your stack on a coin flip - or KQ/J/10 even if you're getting the right pot odds to call. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to preserve his large chip stack and let the smaller stacks duke it out? If he'd lost that hand he would've had ~2k in chips and be even with all the other small stacks. A coin flip doesn't seem worth the risk here, IMO.

I guess I'm just trying to justify my actions and chalk his win up to dumb luck.

He didn't risk half his stack. He had already put in 1000, so it was only another 975 to call. It is a no brainer. No one is ever putting in 1000 and folding to 975 more. Well, I have seen it, but it is a huge mistake.

 

[Fjones]

Oh, yeah, a 1.10 turbo is going to be fast and furious with some RIDICULOUS play. Now, I will throw a different example at you.

Say you had KK here with 6 people left, blinds 100/200 and your respective stack is 500.

Say the really short stack shoved all in for 400 Under the gun, and ALL four bigger stacks called, and it is left for you to act in the BB. What do you do here?

Bubble play can be interesting, and the CORRECT play would be to FOLD KK here, even if you had AA I would fold it in an instant.

Bubble play in some of the bigger Double or Nothings gets pretty tight, and can be really troublesome (20-100$ double or nothings) but the 1.10 turbos can be pretty light, and if you stay patient and get your money in good, thats all you can do. Alot of people play 10-15 of these at once, so people know how to play correctly, which can be crutical.

But still, in a nut shell, you did the right thing there with KK, only under some circumstances can you fold KK here preflop.

I cannot agree with this. Why fold AA? All you have to do is beat the short stack. You do not have to beat any of the other players.

500 chips at the 100 200 level doesn't give you much chance if the guy does win the hand, so what do you really gain by folding? I say, put your chips in and increase the chances that the short stack busts. What if the SS has QQ or KK and has the others dominated?

 

[Fjones]

i've been playing on FullTilt for about 6 months.

started with play chips and went from 1,000->100,000 over a few months of learning, and then added some real money. have also played a few 'in person' tournaments lately at the casino. the skills transferred well, although the IRL stakes were fairly low.

i disagree re play chips being a bad way to learn. once you get up to around the 10,000 level, the play is on par with low stakes real money. i did a bit of reading, but i think the easiest way to learn is just experimentation with the play chips and getting as much experience as possible.

as far as 'cheating' ... yes it definitely does exist in online poker. i have seen quite a bit of it. the most common scenario IME is 6 handed SnG's and rings where you will notice a single player controlling 2 hands. there will be suspicious folding and chip feeding, auto actions, etc. a common give-away is similar handles ... in one sense or another (content, number style, capitalization, w/e). one time i was witness to a a bizarre faked conversation between a player and their alias 8). to avoid these cheaters i usually play multi table SnG's - 18 or 27 where the chances of making it to the final 9 are good if you stay focused over the first 30min.

What stakes were you playing when you notiecd this? I really do not think it happens a lot at the low stakes. It isn't really worth it. Sometimes people are just really bad and their mistakes look like collusion.

 

[Fjones]

Oh man, I love how when there's 6 players left the 6k stack folds in the BB to the 6th place players all-in shove which is 495 more... fucking clown. If chat wasn't disabled years of expensive therapy couldn't reverse what I was about to lay into the big stack with, that fucker.

This continues... until someone shoves and I call w/ QQ only to be up against KK, and I finish in 6th. Great.

Same fucker entered a 3 way pot w/ 1 all-in and then bets the turn and river... other stack folds (with god knows what). Big stack shows TPTK, all-in player has 2 pair (10-3o)... wtf

At the bubble they play poker as if they're trying to win every single hand... getting the small stack knocked out doesn't seem to cross their mind. They'll fold in late position with the short stack in the BB on the bubble, as if it's standard. The short stack was an idiot too.. didn't seem to figure to push w/ 2-4 BB, yet he managed to pick up the blinds + antes and accumulate chips whenever these idiots folded TO HIM. What was I doing? Why wasn't I knocking him out? I was trying to survive while getting dick for cards w/ a medium stack, waiting for the 2 bigger stacks to knock someone out.

The one pocket pair I did have (8s), where'd I called his all-in, the guy hits trips (6 3o) on the river... 8)

The big stack also rr'd someone's 3x preflop raise all-in w/ AA (showed it after everyone folded) like that's a good play???

This could've ended 15 minutes earlier than it did if his IQ wasn't <50.

Then there was that clown who re-raised my 3x bet rr preflop to all-in first hand of the SnG w/ 77 (I had KK). Needless to say I doubled up early.

Christ. Just as I'm finally building my bankroll back up too...

/rant

What were the stacks? Calling with QQ might have been an error, depending on the situation.

 

[Fjones]

I recall reading you played on full tilt, and I know they don't have the double or nothing sit n goes. Basically, 10 people play this sng, say they all pay 10$ to get in. when the 6th person is eliminated and 5 are left, the game is over. So the 100$ prize pool is split 5 ways so everyone gets double what they paid, so they get 20.

The theoretical situation I tried to explain was that if he was short with 300 chips with 6 people left with AA and a 500 chip short stack shoved, and everyone called and it came to you. This is a fold 100% of the time. Why would you risk getting knocked out in 6th with AA when there is an all in and 5 callers, 80% of the time he is going to get knocked out. In that theoretical situation, ANY hand should be folded 100% of the time. But if there were 7 people left, you would call with AA 100% of the time, probably any A10s+ 77+ maybe KQs. just situational.

But his situation with KK was the right play, there were so super super short stacks, and there were not 5 callers, so it is right to call the all in with KK.

you changed the circumstances. Initially you said you have a stack of 500 and the guy shoves for 400 and gets called by everyone. That is a different scenario than the one you described just now, where you gave the short stacked guy a stack of 500 and us a stack of 300. In the first scenario, the one I objected to, You/I/we can bust the short stack with our AA, therefore we need to get in there and call, to increase the chances the short stack gets knocked out. As I said, what if the Short stack has eveyrone else beat?

WHat do you gain by folding? If you go all in with the AA, you only lose if the short stack wins the hand. But if that happens, you lose anyway by folding, because now you have a non stack and no one else is short stacked.

So I think you are better served by increasing the chances that the short stack loses.

In the new scenario you just described, there is less incentive to go with the AA, because in this scenario, we cannot bust theo ther guy with our AA, because heh as more chips than we do. So, now maybe you fold the AA because either way we need one of the bigger stacks to beat the guy.

I hope this clears up what I was saying. I know how a double or nothing SNG works, I just don't necessarily agree that you fold AA there, not when if you fodl and the guy wins you are screwed anyway. I don't see how folding the AA there increases your EV.