A man with virtually no serotonin or dopamine

Roger&Me said:
This is simply confirming something I've known for a long time: the "serotonin deficiency causes depression" line is a crock of shit.

Unhappiness is not a biochemical disease, its a psychological/emotional/spiritual problem. The sooner depressed people realize this fact, the sooner they can get assistance that will actually help them feel better instead of just shoving pills down their throat to correct a phantom "imbalance".
Click to expand...

What about people who are horribly clinically depressed or who have anxiety/OCD or mania/manic depression or another or multiple mental illnesses and all the 100s-1,000s of hours of CBT/therapy, prayer/meditation/being upbeat about a religion/spirituality, self medicating with booze/illegal drugs/psychedelics/herb, exercise, modifying one's diet/taking vitamins and supplements in the world does not work and these people want to feel better, be happy, and not be mentally ill but the only thing that works for them is taking an SSRI/SSNRI or other medications such as Seroquel?

OP thanks for posting this article.
 
Last edited:
Beings said:
...when many now say that as 5htp is converted into serotonin in the liver, and serotonin does not cross BBB, hence 5htp supplementation is useless.
Click to expand...

Inhibit the decarboxylase enzymes effectively (with carbidopa or, to a lesser extent, EGCG) and it'll cross. This can be very dangerous tho--I should've let myself be hospitalized the one time I tried it whole-hog cuz my heart was racing like a fucked clock.
 
LOL!

1) Narco Anonomous
2) Enlitx

Only these 2 people have said anything that is of any worth to me and I say this not to disparage those left out. I will now adopt the general tone presented herein to deliver some choice opinions.

Depression "It's all in your head". There are men who survive (if you can call it that) with shrapnel buried in their head and it is also true to say "It's all in their heads".

Damn right depression is all in a depressive's head, just like shrapnel, it is always there, it is undeniably always there and those who suffer from MDD or severe depression stare at the simple fact that no delusions of choice will ever remove the shrapnel they must live with every day.

What, you can't see this metaphorical shrapnel of which I'm alluding to? - guess what, look down at your keyboard, how do you think the internet works? What if I say that EM radiation and electricity is just the magic I create by choice in my head so that I can communicate to you now, sure I can believe this and I can even develop my world henceforth based on this new self-affirming belief of mine, how self-empowering this new realisation is. Yes, I'm also pathetically immature but writing this was fun! :) - hey, it was also my choice to post these comments, I guess happiness is a choice :).

I leave you guys with this classic Trainspotting piece below (an excellent movie):

"Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a f*cking big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin can openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the f*ck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing f*cking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, f*cked-up brats you have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life . . . But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life: I chose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?"
 
IAmJacksUserName said:
We just don't know all the chemical mechanisms behind happiness, period. But anyone who has taken MDMA can tell you that serotonin plays a helluva big role.

My theory is that each person has their own necessary chemical balance. Perhaps it's the case that some people simply don't need that much serotonin to be happy because their brains naturally make good use of a small stock?
Click to expand...

efficiency? interesting theory.
 
Interesting story!

I personally believe depression and other mood disorders to be a result of both genetic/hormonal factors (not necessarily neurotransmitters) and psychological/environmental ones. The fact that hypothyroidism and other physical diseases can cause depression is proof positive that depression can result from biological causes alone. Does that lessen the importance of psychological factors like negative self-talk, guilt and other counterproductive ways of thinking? Not at all, but it shows how depression can be caused by physiological abnormalities stemming from hormones, metabolic abnormalities and God knows what else.

On another note, people who pretend to know what causes ALL cases of depression and other mental health conditions strike me as egotistical and ignorant to say the least. Saying biological causes are ALWAYS or NEVER involved is the biggest oversimplification in the world, not to mention offensive and inaccurate. When it comes to mental illness, you can only speak for yourself.
 
[1] --------

The mark of good sense is knowing & acknowledging just how little we actually do know for sure, so yes of course I agree there is much uncertainty behind depression, though we should acknowledge the little we do know with the highest certainty as best we can.

The goal in any good analytical discussion should be objectivity. A priori, there are no grounds to polarize focus towards environmental or internal psychological factors vs biological factors except that biological factors are very well-defined whereas many emotional environmental factors are not, i.e. we can't say that X amount of negative talk is surely bad etc.... but an alcoholic parent for example is a tragic well-defined environmental factor that often leads to depression. It does not mean that these issues should be largely ignored but it does mean that real progress rests upon arriving at well-defined concepts based on strong logic if we are to use these personal concepts productively.

The real point here is that for over 2000 years this was in fact all that we could do! Speculation, half-truths and uncertainty was left but now we can do so much more. Behavioural effects are the perhaps the broadest context within which we can sensibly discuss such matters if we are to focus less on biochemistry and it does seem also that genetic factors shift the predisposition likelihoods of suffering illnesses like depression, research into this area should bear fruit over the next 10 years.

For progress, grey areas like the real-world effects of personal factors like negative self-talk must be referenced to what we do know with certainty such as the creation of some sort of internal stress mechanism which produces its effects upon the body. At the very least there needs to be a focus on the resultant behavioural effects which ultimately are not beneficial and which may lead to depression. For example, a positive open and innovative outlook may protect you against the worst social consequences of depression but it surely & provably does not cure serious clinical depression.

<Genetics, Internal or external environmental stresses> --> effects on behaviour, thinking and the body --> biochemical processes --> resultant effects.

Note: this mechanistic construction automatically assumes that all these concepts are linked in some way as you suggest, which is true, but the truth here only reveals the scope of sensible investigation. Nothing is said about 'how much' our ideas are true and in particular if any of the details we fill into this process are true at all, and even if the details are true if it can not be proved beyond reasonable doubt there will be unacceptable uncertainty. Nothing will have been said that would justify risking everyone's health on.

The purview of strong logic includes sound mechanistic constructions that can be tested, the purview of formative logic includes those concepts that at least do not contradict, without very good reason, what is known to be true physically. (e.g. that sulphuric acid on skin is harmful). Pubmed & Google scholar are the best accessible ways to research depression - various journals are excellent and if you are a university alum they will enable you to access them for free using their general subscriptions. As with anything use a nice diverse set of Journals when researching.

[2]--------------------

Scientific thought can extend to emotions or personal concepts as long as it is done in a way that is helpful and beneficial in the real world. If it is pure thought then it is philosophy, the biggest problem is that people arbitrary cross these areas without reason. E.g.:

create philosophy --> ......--> .... --> resultant effect

These missing links are the incredibly vast amounts of assumptions which are made when it is assumed that an idea applies as a causative effect in the real world. If you have to make contradictory or vague assumptions then there is a real problem here, yet this is very hard to do well, so nearly everyone glosses over this fundamental and critical component. The more blatantly anybody does this the less anything they say will be useful and unfortunately many people don't just dismiss these fundamentals they very happily piss all over them!

How can anybody know anything with any certainty or truth at all if things are conducted in such a way?
 
Last edited:
Roger&Me said:
This is simply confirming something I've known for a long time: the "serotonin deficiency causes depression" line is a crock of shit.

Unhappiness is not a biochemical disease, its a psychological/emotional/spiritual problem. The sooner depressed people realize this fact, the sooner they can get assistance that will actually help them feel better instead of just shoving pills down their throat to correct a phantom "imbalance".
Click to expand...

Cmon... you dont KNOW it is a spiritual problem..
What would people do to get better, pray to allah and ask for serotonins?
 
My sophisticated, philosophical and thought provoking addition to this thread, possibly even prescriptive?

Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
Click to expand...

Damn straight.

Depression + heroin = problem solved. (Short term and in no way am I being serious, so don't try this at home, or for lengthy periods.)
 
Seems to be alot of people with mental illness who are getting personal and pretty much defending their use of drugs to treat their mental problems.

I see these people clinging to their beleif, no it is purely all due to complicated chemical imbalances in the central nervous system... I see the other side of the fence claiming the opposite and clinging to that belief.

Is it not realistic to think that it is a super complex mixture of both? On top of this everyones individual brain is pretty unique in it's neural structure, one can imagine truely how complicated this is.

How can someone 100% confidently claim it is not a physical problem, but a metaphysical one? And how can someone claim the opposite. How do you know? How can you be so goddamn certain you are right, isnt there just a small chance it is a mixture of both.

In expressing my belief that it is a kind of mixture of both, i must say that i still beleive antidepressants and majorly overprescribed. And alot of people seem to take comfort in the fact it is quite easy to just believe there isnt anything you can do about it, other than wait for the drugs to work. Which is complete bullshit. People seem to have forgotten that you can always choose your additude. That's a choice. Your additude thus shapes your perspective. Have you noticed how depressed people seem almost reluctant to even consider the positive side? Although our emotions might not be able to be controlled with will, your additude to can. And to claim it cant, well you're simply not trying hard enough. A huge amount of depression i think is caused by bad habits of additude and thought. In the habit of always focussing on purely the negative aspects of everything.

I wouldnt ever make the claim no1 in the world needs chemical intervention to right their mind, per say. Because i honestly dont know enough to be able to claim something like that about something like this. But it is clear to anyone with half a brain that antidepressants are overused.

In all honestly, i have never actually seen a depressed person who started meds, and actually showed a level of improvement, i've never actually seen this. And i've known atleast 6 people on ssri's. Hardly enough to make a conclusion, but it definitely provokes thought. All i've seen is people who are confused, and dont know whether to attribute any progress on their illness, to their own selves, or purely to the drugs.

And what ive personally noticed is it create a kind of complex in the persons mind where they dont feel like they can live without these drugs, and attempts of getting off it have just strengthened this belief.
 
The thing that you people don't understand is , sure depression is 'sometimes' chemical based but. What is your solution? To be crutched by anti depressants for years, and then get off the drug and then??
Then what happens is your brain doesn't have a serotonin booster and is going to transport serotonin at a much much slower speed without the drug. This will fuck up your mood, and get you in the habit of thinking negatively and having no self worth. This will either snowball into terrible depression or you will go back on anti D. Only a small amount of people actually get off the ssri's and feel better and more content after.
 
I don't get people saying happiness is a choice. Not only does that seem like an arbitrary statement, but to someone who's clinically depressed and has never experienced joy or contentment, it doesn't even register

For me, depression is having no interest in anything, being more or less anhedonic and apathetic. It becomes impossible to enjoy anything since nothing gives you pleasure.. If i weren't on meds i'd probably be dead from an OD by now

The people who say everyone gets depressed, man up haven't the slightest idea what depression is. It's really a lack of emotion and interest rather than simply being bummed out about something
 
Roger&Me said:
This is simply confirming something I've known for a long time: the "serotonin deficiency causes depression" line is a crock of shit.

Unhappiness is not a biochemical disease, its a psychological/emotional/spiritual problem. The sooner depressed people realize this fact, the sooner they can get assistance that will actually help them feel better instead of just shoving pills down their throat to correct a phantom "imbalance".
Click to expand...



^^^^^^^^

Agree 100%
 
F1n1shed said:
The thing that you people don't understand is , sure depression is 'sometimes' chemical based but. What is your solution? To be crutched by anti depressants for years, and then get off the drug and then??
Then what happens is your brain doesn't have a serotonin booster and is going to transport serotonin at a much much slower speed without the drug. This will fuck up your mood, and get you in the habit of thinking negatively and having no self worth. This will either snowball into terrible depression or you will go back on anti D. Only a small amount of people actually get off the ssri's and feel better and more content after.
Click to expand...



Screw SSRI's, they destruct more people than they help. Dont believe the hype!
 
Thanks for posting this article OP.

I think we need to change our approach to depression, and this is a step forward in acknowledging it. Instead of just prescribing anti-depressants there should be more direct therapy that works towards the underlying core of the depression from a spiritual,emotional and psychological level.
 
I believe in therapy. I've been through several years of it now and it's definitely helped me to deal with some issues more effectively, but it doesn't get rid of the underlying problem - depression and anxiety.. which in my case, at least, are mostly neurological (and less situational)

So i guess i'm saying, meds are a life-saver, but so is therapy and maintaining my physical health with proper nutrition and supplements

And i do believe, mind - body - spirit must all be healthy to function properly.. but as it is, most people are not physically healthful, so that's what i'd focus on first then work on the others (self-esteem, outlook) with a therapist/psych etc
 
wonder what the side effects of having unnaturally high levels of serotonin and dopamine would be????
 
Gormur said:
I believe in therapy. I've been through several years of it now and it's definitely helped me to deal with some issues more effectively, but it doesn't get rid of the underlying problem - depression and anxiety.. which in my case, at least, are mostly neurological (and less situational)

So i guess i'm saying, meds are a life-saver, but so is therapy and maintaining my physical health with proper nutrition and supplements

And i do believe, mind - body - spirit must all be healthy to function properly.. but as it is, most people are not physically healthful, so that's what i'd focus on first then work on the others (self-esteem, outlook) with a therapist/psych etc
Click to expand...

wanna know what helped with my clinical (at times) bipolar depression?

strong b vitamin complex, single best cure for insomnia and anxiety i have ever found, from first taking it daily (as i have done for six years) it took about four years to get my mood cycle to the point where it no longer was waving up and down periodically.

b6- is important in production of serotonin and dopamine

about a 2 years ago i came off them for a week and experienced the last pretty major manic episode i have had (followed by a period of burned outness where although i could get up and go to work- as i was on tramadol, i couldn't experience pleasure of any kind). now i just wont go anywhere without an adequate supply. best depression helper going
 
Enlitx said:
What do you think controls the psychological and emotional aspects of our consciousness if not biochemistry? Depression may take root after environmental factors fail to strengthen certain neural pathways that stimulate dopaminergic and serotonergic release, or it may take root because it strengthens pathways that increase fear and anxiety (amygdala, etc..). Whatever the case, it is still linked to biochemistry. I fail to see any way to look out it without coming back to biochemistry as the basis for all psychological conditions. Even though SSRI's might not "cure" the disease, they release serotonin which improves a patient's mood and allows them to break the cycle of depression, forming neural networks that reinforce pleasure.

I have never understood how people can say that a problem with the brain does not have a basis in biochemistry. Even something purely behavioral, such as CBT therapy, aims to strengthen pathways that reinforce pleasure. So it really doesen't matter if you are taking a pill to release dopamine or you are performing healthy activities, the goal is to alter the biochemistry of a patient in every single case.
Click to expand...

qft
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top