Opioids A forming Kratom addiction? Overall thoughts on addiction

[Mynameisphil]

Need some tips on the overall prevention of addiction

Hey guys! I wanted to start a thread on addictions overall. Your thoughts, advice on how to avoid it, or if it is even possible to enjoy your DOC without forming an addiction. Any OD is acceptable in this discussion but Id like for it to be geared towards my two problem substances. Kratom and caffeine.

We all have a problem drug, a drug that is almost perfect and the pros usually outweighs the cons more than any other drug, mine would be caffeine, but more importantly Kratom.

Im 20 years old and in my junior year of college right now, and I discovered Kratom a few years ago, but never started to use it until a few months ago. My usage is still pretty sparingly. For a long time it was only about 5-7 grams dosed once a day for maybe 2-3 times a week.

This week I used 10 grams of Kratom for 5 days in a row and I can feel a potential Kratom addiction forming. I am also really sensitive to withdrawals because I experience slight WD symptoms after a 5 day consecutive use. All minor and more of an inconvience than anything.

Anyways I keep telling myself that if I keep taking this drug in the ways that I have (not just in social situations, now bleeding into everyday life) I will ruin the drug for me and probably form a major addiction.

My dad is an alcoholic, I hate alcohol and can never see myself addicted to that, but Kratom is the one drug I could potentially see myself addicted too if I continue down the road I was on the last few weeks.

Anyways I was sober yesterday, and today I stopped myself from having a teaspoon or two before class, because I don't need it, I only want it to make life better.

Do you guys think it's possible to enjoy your DOC recreationally without it becoming a problem?

I want to try and make Kratom a soely social treat, something I only do on the weekends when im with friends and what not. I think that would be a big step in preventing an actual addiction to occur. I know the only way to not have a risk of addiction is abstaining from drugs completey, but I don't think Im ready for abstinence.

I want to enjoy and savor Kratom for the beautiful plant it is, but I don't want it to get a grip onto my soul.

I am an avid weightlifter/bodybuilder which comes first before getting high. Most other drugs severely hinder my progress in the gym and that's why I can't see myself addicted to them. But Kratom is so delicate I can even workout on it and feel a minimal hindrance.

My other problem drug would be caffeine. Coffee in the morning and a preworkout or energy drink before the gym. Probably adding up to about 200-350 mg 5x a week. Pretty much a large percentage of Americans and humans in general are addicted to caffeine, but does that make it okay? Is it really not a big deal to be dependant on caffeine? Or are there some horror stories out there.

Anyways, any overall discussion or comments on these topics would be appreciated. Whether it be on my own situation, or just general tips on how you as an individual have overcome addiction.

Or your own horror stories and how you were not able to enjoy your DOC sparingly.

My main goal for Kratom is it to be a social replacement for alcohol. Something I can partake in every once in a while for the rest of my life. Similar to how most responsible adults treat alcohol. Is this possible in your eyes?

 

[HeadHigh]

I wholeheartedly believe that specific people can use their DOC responsibly without getting addicted, but i also think that theres no way of knowing if youre one of those specific people. I have never had an addictive personality and have tried over 30 different chemicals, but kratom is my addiction. not very problematic at all, but i am technically addicted to it. so i feel you, but i would not advise going down that rabbit hole.

 

[Mynameisphil]

Hey! Thanks for replying!

I ended up not taking Kratom today too, it's still early in the day but I smoked a very low dose of weed and it brought happiness and motivation back into my day so I don't need to resort to Kratom.

My biggest problem would be boredrum and being just overall not content. This leads me to use Kratom because it fixes all of that instantly.

I can't live much longer doing drugs everyday though because some part of me knows that it's not the best choice

 

[Ksa]

If natural, it is perfectly fine to listen to a part of you that knows it's not the best choice, if that part has a natural origin. Look inside and see where it comes from. I'll give you my two cents.

My parents always been anti-drug. When they talked about someone doing drugs, they referred to him as stupid for not knowing better and they would portray him as a lost cause, someone who will not achieve anything other than their own destruction, someone to stay away from. I picked up on that bigotry and myself would brag for a long time that I don't use any drugs or alcohol, not even coffee. That made me feel good, a little bit, nothing much but I was convinced that it was the right way. That I must not use drugs, and that makes me better then those who do because they don't have that strength in them that I have, to say, I won't use drugs. Ok. Clap clap.

When I became wiser, I realized something: Don't ever be convinced about something you don't understand, as you would be doing yourself a big disfavor. Since I had trouble in University I said, well, let's look into what drugs are, how many types, what they do and why people want them. Then I fell on an article saying that about 30% of students were using Adderall to study and pass exams. I then said, ok, I don't even drink coffee, and I brag about that, meanwhile, I'm failing my exams. Let's go see a doctor about that. I went to the doctor and guess what, she said I have ADHD and actually prescribed me Adderall. I tried it and it was an aha moment! I said aha! This is how you fuckers get As!

I realized that I was convinced about something that required convincing, without any element of conviction. In other words, it wasn't obvious that drugs are something to stay away from. My parents told me to stay away from drugs, sure, but they also told me to stay away from videogames, from school parties, from hanging out...so I kind of lost my trust in their judgement. I said ok, they are parents, they got a hard job to do, they are doing their best but hey, what if they got no clue what they're talking about? A good habit that I got ever since was to always question everything until I acquire a good understanding of it. I was doing it before too, but not with large topics like drugs.

My parents also complained about how they recruit people in Islamic extremist groups, brainwash them, those evil Islamic gurus that wipe your mind away, stay away, and again, strong opinions. What I did...I read the Qur'an a few times, and I didn't become a terrorist, and I never joined any extremist group. Then I realized, these people are afraid, they are scared shitless, and their fear is doing me a big disfavor. A huge disfavor. Anyone who is afraid of something, they should only be afraid for themselves. All of a sudden I felt insulted. Are they not trusting my judgement? Did they honestly think that if I read the Qur'an I would become an extremist? Do they take me for an idiot? What kind of relationship is this, where I have to abstain from everything, to lessen their fear? If they are afraid, they should see a doctor. You see what I mean?

So make sure that your opinions and feelings come from you, that they have no rotten roots, that they are genuine, well informed and healthy.

 

[Mynameisphil]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond! What's your outlook on drugs now? I know your family taught you that they are bad, so did mine. But now that you've had a taste, what's your opinion on them? Do you think addicting drugs, for example Kratom, can be used 1-3 times a week with minimal negative impact on a persons life? Or is that just the wishful thinking of younger people

 

[Kratomquella]

Wow.. Beautifully well written .. It moved me.

 

[Kratomquella]

I came off methadone a month and a half ago and I am afraid to stop taking my mega dose of vit C and Kratom. All fear. Total fear. Fear of what it might feel like. Would it be as bad as methadone withdrawal again? Ugh.

 

[Oakstone]

I think people can use their DOC recreationally while still responsibly. That's not saying everyone will, but it is definitely possible. What's funny, though, is that I actually prefer to use kratom in the opposite way as the OP; not a huge fan of using it socially, I prefer to use it while I'm alone because it can help move my writing along.

Anyway, in the caffeine doses you talk about there, I don't think it's really that much of a problem. 200-300 mg daily (or not even daily, as you said) isn't that much. I think people only really start having problems with withdrawals and bad side effects from larger and more regular amounts.

 

[Mynameisphil]

Instead of fully hopping off why don't you try tapering at a speed you're comfortable at? For example if you're taking say 20 grams a day, maybe try lowering it even just 1 gram every other day or something?

Thanks for all the replies! Im not too worried about the caffeine addiction but more of the Kratom. I asked my girlfriend to help me limit my use to weekends only. I just started school and will have a part time job during the week so hopefully that will keep me busy. I keep a "drug calander" to help me stay honest and true to mysef. If I can get it down to fridays and Saturdays only I'll be very very happy

 

[Ksa]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond! What's your outlook on drugs now? I know your family taught you that they are bad, so did mine. But now that you've had a taste, what's your opinion on them? Do you think addicting drugs, for example Kratom, can be used 1-3 times a week with minimal negative impact on a persons life? Or is that just the wishful thinking of younger people

My outlook now? For me doing drugs is like working inside regedit.exe in windows. If you know what you're doing you're fine, if you don't, you might break everything. You're just changing stuff at the core of your being and that gives you more responsibility then somebody who operates under natural parameters. Personally, I'm very responsible and accountable for what I do at my job, and most of that comes from drug use, it taught me that I have to do things right the first time because I won't get a chance to undo it. My stress levels are really low, when you worked with stuff that can kill you, you gain a lot of confidence because you know you're doing things right, so job stress is nothing.

 

[HeadHigh]

Ksa, thats a very interesting and optimistic perspective, i like it. But i do want to state the obvious fact that even though there are a few positive outcomes of drug use, it is ALWAYS better to not be any where close to having an addiction. I am addicted to kratom and although it has not negatively impacted my life yet, i know that trying to come off of it will be a bitch. Ive tapered down twice, but always jumped back on it. The only negative thing about my kratom addiction is that im addicted. It hasnt impacted my job, my schooling, or any relationships, but the fact that im physically and mentally addicted is a bitch.

 

[Ksa]

Ksa, thats a very interesting and optimistic perspective, i like it. But i do want to state the obvious fact that even though there are a few positive outcomes of drug use, it is ALWAYS better to not be any where close to having an addiction. I am addicted to kratom and although it has not negatively impacted my life yet, i know that trying to come off of it will be a bitch. Ive tapered down twice, but always jumped back on it. The only negative thing about my kratom addiction is that im addicted. It hasnt impacted my job, my schooling, or any relationships, but the fact that im physically and mentally addicted is a bitch.

If you want to be an expert in what you do, if you want to be that person that everybody comes to to ask a question, because they know, that you know it all...in order to be that rich person driving a BMW, don't use words used by idiots. Idiots don't know, it's their full time job, not to know. That's why they use words that mean nothing, because they don't really mean anything when they talk, it's just the jaw moving. Addiction is a meaningless word. It doesn't mean anything in particular, because it was not designed to define a concept, but to belittle an individual and diminish his reputation. Calling someone an addict is like calling him an ass-hole. It doesn't mean anything.

I know that people who never used drugs say that word with a lot of conviction, but the only thing they're truly convinced about is that they're too afraid to try. If they touch themselves underneath the belt, the pants are wet, all the way down to their knees. No matter what they tell you or what their excuse is, they don't try because they're afraid, they're scared, they're wet. Nothing else. Why else wouldn't they be open to trying something new?

As a professional, you can express your post like this: I enjoy Kratom now, but my physical dependence to it grows with each usage, so I'm wondering if what I get while I'm using is worth what I lose when I withdraw.

I can answer to that question. Only you can determine if your Kratom use is worth it. Simply compare what you get while you use the drug, with what you lose when you withdraw from the drug plus collateral like money spent on drug or opportunities lost.

 

[Mynameisphil]

If you want to be an expert in what you do, if you want to be that person that everybody comes to to ask a question, because they know, that you know it all...in order to be that rich person driving a BMW, don't use words used by idiots. Idiots don't know, it's their full time job, not to know. That's why they use words that mean nothing, because they don't really mean anything when they talk, it's just the jaw moving. Addiction is a meaningless word. It doesn't mean anything in particular, because it was not designed to define a concept, but to belittle an individual and diminish his reputation. Calling someone an addict is like calling him an ass-hole. It doesn't mean anything.

I know that people who never used drugs say that word with a lot of conviction, but the only thing they're truly convinced about is that they're too afraid to try. If they touch themselves underneath the belt, the pants are wet, all the way down to their knees. No matter what they tell you or what their excuse is, they don't try because they're afraid, they're scared, they're wet. Nothing else. Why else wouldn't they be open to trying something new?

As a professional, you can express your post like this: I enjoy Kratom now, but my physical dependence to it grows with each usage, so I'm wondering if what I get while I'm using is worth what I lose when I withdraw.

I can answer to that question. Only you can determine if your Kratom use is worth it. Simply compare what you get while you use the drug, with what you lose when you withdraw from the drug plus collateral like money spent on drug or opportunities lost.

the ironic part is, many of them are "addicts" too in their own sense of the word. Whether it be nicotine, CAFFEINE, even food, sex, porn etc.

 

[Mynameisphil]

I decided to quit kratom. I stumbled upon a thread of on reddits quittingkratom. Im not sure if I can link to other sites here so I am not, but the post was basically a bunch of long term addicts and their horror story. It really scared me, I've only been using kratom for 2-3 months maybe an average of 2-3 days a week. Sometims 4-5 days in a row, sometimes a few days of break inbetween. I already feel some of the symptoms they provide just in a much minor way.

I wanted to try and just use Kratom recreationally, every once in a while like once or twice a month. Maybe in the future I can do that, but right now I am too concerned about my brain and body.

 

[Mycophile]

I decided to quit kratom. I stumbled upon a thread of on reddits quittingkratom. Im not sure if I can link to other sites here so I am not, but the post was basically a bunch of long term addicts and their horror story. It really scared me, I've only been using kratom for 2-3 months maybe an average of 2-3 days a week. Sometims 4-5 days in a row, sometimes a few days of break inbetween. I already feel some of the symptoms they provide just in a much minor way.

I wanted to try and just use Kratom recreationally, every once in a while like once or twice a month. Maybe in the future I can do that, but right now I am too concerned about my brain and body.

I've gone to reddit's quittingKratom forum and there are a lot of people there who get weird side effects from Kratom that are VERY rare.

I started a thread about it earlier this summer cause it concerned me but then I started realizing that we don't know anything about these people who had the rare side effects from Kratom, such as hair loss, for example.

We don't know what other drugs they were taking, we don't know their genetic predispositions or other health problems, NOTHING.

I personally don't think most people get serious health problems from Kratom and I think it's not a very harmful drug.

When I discovered it 2 years ago I was concerned with getting addicted but I no longer am because this summer I was using between 14-18 grams 4 days a week, and then went on an even bigger bender involving other drugs and ended it all with 5 grams of UEI which some people thought MIGHT make my withdrawal much worse cause it's stronger than Kratom.

I was addicted to it, but I knew that I was going to take a break after the bender so I was anticipating some somewhat bad withdrawal.

But what effects did I get from all that Kratom??

Nothing more than 3-4 days of depression and a runny nose.

That was it.

On day 5 all the symptoms were gone.

So if that's the worst thing that can come from using 14-18 grams of Kratom 4 days a week then I think it's a pretty mild drug.

The people on that forum who end up SUPER addicted are using it EVERY SINGLE DAY for a year or more usually, or at least like 6 days a week.

It's funny you mention caffeine though, because THAT is TRULY my poison.

I don't know why, but I simply CAN'T stop myself from consuming between 6-8 cups of coffee a day and it gives me lots of problems like anxiety, PROFUSE sweating, especially in the heat the northeast U.S. is experiencing now, as well as causing me to fatigue easily in my sport of choice.

I've tried to quit over and over but the WD symptoms are just usually too much for me to handle doing it cold turkey, and the one time I did manage to amazingly go 40 days without coffee and actually got off it, the next day that I drank one cup I was off to the races again and within a week back to 5 cups a day.

I don't know why, after having done many other drugs that people would THINK are worse, like Kratom, Phenibut, Alcohol, LSD, Shrooms, Weed, Cocaine, Oxy, Prolintane, Dexadrine, Salvia, etc etc...that caffeine is the ONLY drug I believe I have been INCAPABLE of either moderating with or cutting out of my life for extensive periods of time.

I've gone 988 days without weed just to prove I could do it even while I was a HUGE pot head, 3 months without alcohol while I was a heavy drinker, 3 months without Kratom even though I loved it...but caffeine I just can't seem to control.


I came to these conclusion about why that is: 1) no one considers caffeine a drug like these others so they go into using as if it's completely irrelevant and if they have a nature like mine, that can mean abusing it 2) everyone needs to be awake to be functional, and that's what caffeine does, but NOT everyone needs to be high, drunk or tripping to be functional LOL.

And the thing is, I kind of have OCD and I HATE not getting a good night's sleep so when that happens, or even when it doesn't now...I just drink massive amounts of caffeine to deal with any tiredness I have.

See, when I started using Kratom I was VERY concerned with addiction to it so I made sure that I NEVER used it more than 4 days a week so it never really got that bad, and I believe that if when I first started using coffee I'd been of the same mind I never truly would have gotten addicted.

But because i never thought of it as a drug I didn't consider the importance of not getting addicted and now that I've been addicted for about 16 years, the idea of stopping seems nearly impossible.

None of the other drugs I've used in my life have I EVER done EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Weed would be the closest back in college, but we all know that has VERY mild WD symptoms, if any at all.

I'm STILL trying to get my caffeine usage to no more than 3 or 4 cups a day WHICH ACTUALLY SEEMS LIKE A LARGE AMOUNT TO MOST PEOPLE (which baffles me...) and it's EXTREMELY hard for me to do.

And yet I have no real fear of Kratom addiction or Phenibut addiction, two stronger drugs which I use.

Go figure.

There isn't even a single program that really exists out there for helping SERIOUS caffeine addicts like me cut down or stop and people don't even take the side effects seriously but it really CAN cause some serious problems I've experienced so this is VERY frustrating!!!

The best chance I have is just VERY slowly cutting down.

I don't want to 100% stop because without 1 or 2 cups starting the day would be VERY hard....but if possible I'd really like to get my intake down to about 2 cups I day.

I think I can probably get there EVENTUALLY...DEFINITELY to no more than 4 cups a day which is considered medically to be the largest "safe" dose to consume daily...so I'm just going to keep trying to cut down and hope I can get there.

The even harder thing than getting there is staying there when you do though.

People have also laughed about the fact that caffeine is a drug I have trouble with, but I've never had trouble with drugs like Phenibut which can cause SERIOUS LIFE THREATENING WD...so it just goes to show that everyone is unique in terms of the drugs they are addicted to and the vices that they have in life.

 

[Mycophile]

May I ask you what symptoms you are talking about that they mentioned on Reddit's quitting Kratom forum??

I am pretty sure I read about all of them.

But without actual tests being run on these people with all their medical history documented including other drugs they were taking their stories are just anecdotal.

As mentioned, I was taking it 4 days a week in fairly large amounts and got nothing more than 4 days of depression and a runny nose.

I know my WD would have been worse if I'd used it daily though and I would NOT recommend using it every day.

Right now I am taking AT LEAST a 6 or more month break from it though because it was interfering with certain goals I have which will be easier to accomplish while off of Kratom.

I've gone 3 months before, so I know that 6 or more will be no problem for me despite it being possibly my favorite drug amongst a couple others.

I REALLY hope it stays legal in my state because I think it's a wonderful plant.

 

[Mynameisphil]

Hey! Thanks for replying, I hope you can cut down the caffeine. Take it slow, even a few sips left a day. Noticed you have a gulp left of your 5th cup? Just toss it instead of drinking. You could get it down I believe in you.

Some of the symptoms I recall was hair loss, hormonal problems, testosterone crash, epic weight loss, and even mental damage.

I've been noticing some not so fun symptoms with my Kratom use now, and it motivates me to quit for a month starting now.

Naseua and headache on the comedown
More depression when im sober
Mind feels "loose" and it's a lot harder to focus, memory is worse than usual
Stomach problems and going number two TOO much lol
I also almost instantly gag whenever I even smell Kratom and I think it's my body telling me I need a break.

Oh fatigue too.

Also try using a lower caffeinated type of coffee which might help. You'd still have 5-6 cups a day, but the caffeine level would be lower which might help ease up the craving

I hope it stays legal too but at the rate it's going it doesn't seem like it. Especially if someone completely extracts the opioid component of Kratom and patents it into an rx

 

[Mycophile]

Hey! Thanks for replying, I hope you can cut down the caffeine. Take it slow, even a few sips left a day. Noticed you have a gulp left of your 5th cup? Just toss it instead of drinking. You could get it down I believe in you.

Some of the symptoms I recall was hair loss, hormonal problems, testosterone crash, epic weight loss, and even mental damage.

I've been noticing some not so fun symptoms with my Kratom use now, and it motivates me to quit for a month starting now.

Naseua and headache on the comedown
More depression when im sober
Mind feels "loose" and it's a lot harder to focus, memory is worse than usual
Stomach problems and going number two TOO much lol
I also almost instantly gag whenever I even smell Kratom and I think it's my body telling me I need a break.

Oh fatigue too.

Also try using a lower caffeinated type of coffee which might help. You'd still have 5-6 cups a day, but the caffeine level would be lower which might help ease up the craving

I hope it stays legal too but at the rate it's going it doesn't seem like it. Especially if someone completely extracts the opioid component of Kratom and patents it into an rx

I'll order a couple kilos if I think it will become illegal and stock up enough to have some for at least a good long while and IF someone could patent the opioid component of Kratom I'd find a way to get my hands on that.

Also, even IF it becomes illegal in my state it will take a LONG time for it to become illegal in all states seeing as Kratom is only illegal in 6 states right now so I could probably find a friend outside of my state to drive to and pick some up.

But what does truly suck is that IF it ever becomes illegal in all 50 states there probably won't end up being an underground market for it, it would just dissapear, but like I said, I'd order some kilos if i TRULY think it will happen SOON but most users on reddit agree that even the attempt to make it illegal in NY will PROBABLY not work THIS YEAR at least.

See I haven't had most of those problems you talk about with Kratom.

The only ones I've had is that when I am in withdrawal I will get pretty depressed, fatigued and have a runny nose, but that's only if I'm in withdrawal which means I have to be doing it at least 2 days a week.

I was noticing lack of motivation to work out on my off days and that's what is making me take a long break from it now, but other than that I wasn't having many other problems other than it making it hard to sleep if I dosed too close to bed time.

I didn't get severe nausea and if I did I just took Pepto bismol, it didn't make my memory worse and didn't make me gag to smell it, nor did I get much diaharea.

I think a lot of those users are just rare people who couldn't tolerate it personally or somehow had some genetic predisposition to it or they just used WAAY too much.

 

[treezy z]

My DOC is angel dust. I can't use it responsibly I keep going until I get arrested or committed.

OP you're already addicted. If you weren't you wouldn't be worrying about controlling your use etc you could just take it or leave it.

 

[treezy z]

I came off methadone a month and a half ago and I am afraid to stop taking my mega dose of vit C and Kratom. All fear. Total fear. Fear of what it might feel like. Would it be as bad as methadone withdrawal again? Ugh.

Kratom withdrawal is the easiest opioid withdrawal IMO. Pills dope subs and methadone are much harder, personally I can't quit those without detox.

I started Kratom to get of suboxone because I hate that shit. I then quit Kratom and was mildly sick for four days, no puking immodium for shits. Main symptom was cold sweats (which suck terribly but whatever.) No crushing mental withdrawals. Day 5 I was back at work.