5htp and mdma

[iROLL22]

^ Ya, 5HTP turns into serotonin in your liver, which goes into your blood, and is bad for your heart valves. Where you need it is your brain, and supplement L-tryptophan is just an amino acid (natural protein building block) that is metabolized into 5HTP by your liver, then sends it to your brain where your eyes take in light and use it to make serotonin, 100% naturally. 5HTP works, but is somewhat unnatural and probably not good for the heart valves.

that makes sooooo much sense..i remember learning in anatomy that serotonin also tells the body to start blood clots

 

[iROLL22]

the only anti-depressants that you cant eat cheese with are MAOI's which you should NEVER take with any serotonergic (spelling?) drug with..but its pretty rare for those to be prescribed....ssri's we all know kill rolls.

 

[SuperPump250]

I don't think there is a definitive answer about 5 htp. There are many different opinions on whether it even really works or not. Personally I take it sometimes after I roll, and I notice it helps my mood. Even though it's not a prescription drug in this country I'd be careful using it daily or regularly.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

dietary sources of tryptophan

See? I have a reference

According to that, you cannot eat any fish/eggs/meat/nuts/seeds of any kind, nor drink milk, or it is dangerous 8)

8)8)8)

I can quote posts and use emoticons too.
See how it means nothing?

You are attempting to manufacture a conflict Severely, on a relatively MINOR issue.
I think there is a bigger issue that you want to discuss than my stance on tryptophan supplementation.
It sounds like you are getting tired of my 'know-it-all' posts and you just want me to go away...

The last thread is another example...you are quoting me multiple times in a thread where I am really being honest and open. Why the confrontation?
Something bothering you?

I am working on 'references' for some of my claims about the intestines, but the stance you take in this thread is petty and ridiculous.

I was obviously recommending caution about using tryptophan SUPPLEMENTS...the ones you correctly referred to as 'unnatural'.

Nowhere in my post did I indicate that ALL SOURCES of dietary tryptophan are DANGEROUS with MDMA.
Surely you can see that...

I agree - eating a diet HIGH in PROTEIN is the BEST approach. It supplies the body with ALL the tryptophan it needs.
Good advice.

Now consider mine - taking tryptophan supplements unnaturally raises serotonin content IN THE INTESTINES.
Before you go demanding a link or reference...let me just give you a simple fact you can readily verify.
95% of serotonin and serotonin receptors are in the intestines.

The exact percentage may be different depending on where you look, but the trend is the same.
Want proof? Go find it yourself.

The primary function of serotonin is to contract the smooth muscle around the digestive system.
Anything that increases serotonin in the brain is also going to increase it in the bowels.

And with MOST serotonergic substances that could potentially interact with others, a LONG abstention period is ALWAYS recommended. Two weeks is normally sufficient, but some anti-depressants take longer.

iROLL22 is right - typically the older anti-depressants, MAOIs, interact with dietary sources of tyramine, which acts upon dopamine/NA release. When MAO is disabled, a hypertensive crises can result...
The 'cheese effect' is caused by tyramine, but there is also risk of serotonin syndrome resulting from high-tryptophan diet combined with MAOIs.

Regardless, the advice on MDMA + tryptophan supplements is clear - adequate spacing is the only way to reduce risk. Although serotonin syndrome is still RARE - MDMA is a potent serotonergic agent, so caution with 'unnatural' tryptophan supplements is definitely warranted.

The risk is NOT worth it.
If you want to argue, please pick something worthwhile.

 

[severely etarded]

Nowhere in my post did I indicate that ALL SOURCES of dietary tryptophan are DANGEROUS with MDMA.
Surely you can see that...

Some anti-depressants have SUCH a high risk of interactions that patients can't even eat CHEESE.

That's what I interpreted here...^

 

[First Bad Comedown]

I can see how you might leap to such a conclusion...
But I only invoked the 'cheese effect' to illustrate the possibility of other more dangerous interactions...
Such as the one in the title of the thread.

I assign NO danger to normal dietary sources of tryptophan in conjunction with MDMA, in fact I encourage a high-protein diet leading up to the roll. This will increase the store of serotonin in the intestines.
As does taking reasonable amounts of tryptophan supplements - but discontinuation prior to MDMA is critical to lower the risk of ongoing serotonin activity from BOTH sources.

It is the interaction of TWO different sources of serotonin agonism/release that causes serotonin syndrome.

While eating protein raises global supply of serotonin - aating high carbohydrate foods, esp. high-glycemic or 'simple' carbs...is a good way to increase serotonin activity in the brain.
I interpret this to mean that sugars actually cause the intestines/brain to work harder, thus increasing serotonin activity in the brainstem. But since I don't have references to back up this assumption, I will just have to ask some readers to 'trust me'.

The best advice for rolling is to eat the way we should already be eating before and after the experience.
Treat your body like it is going through an ordeal - because it is. Especially the digestive system.

I suppose we can conclude this misunderstanding/debate.
Until next time.

 

[Folley]

You are attempting to manufacture a conflict Severely, on a relatively MINOR issue.
I think there is a bigger issue that you want to discuss than my stance on tryptophan supplementation.
It sounds like you are getting tired of my 'know-it-all' posts and you just want me to go away...

Im seeing the exact thing, hes breaking down big scientifical shit into words we can understand, sure some minor details might be wrong, but who cares? The overall message is good, and without FBC I personally would know about half of what I do now.

Im pretty sure everyone understands they can still eat cheese...

 

[severely etarded]

I can see how you might leap to such a conclusion...
But I only invoked the 'cheese effect' to illustrate the possibility of other more dangerous interactions...
Such as the one in the title of the thread.

I assign NO danger to normal dietary sources of tryptophan in conjunction with MDMA, in fact I encourage a high-protein diet leading up to the roll. This will increase the store of serotonin in the intestines.
As does taking reasonable amounts of tryptophan supplements - but discontinuation prior to MDMA is critical to lower the risk of ongoing serotonin activity from BOTH sources.

That's pretty reasonable. Didn't mean to leap to any conclusions, I thought what you were saying was essentially not to eat cheese/drink milk or consume other dietary sources of protein for 3 whole days before the roll!

It is the interaction of TWO different sources of serotonin agonism/release that causes serotonin syndrome.

too much serotonin + SSRI chemical(such as MDMA) = serotonin syndrome.

While eating protein raises global supply of serotonin - aating high carbohydrate foods, esp. high-glycemic or 'simple' carbs...is a good way to increase serotonin activity in the brain.
I interpret this to mean that sugars actually cause the intestines/brain to work harder, thus increasing serotonin activity in the brainstem. But since I don't have references to back up this assumption, I will just have to ask some readers to 'trust me'.

I got one. It says it has to do with insulin production increasing the ratio of tryptophan to BCAA's in the blood

The best advice for rolling is to eat the way we should already be eating before and after the experience.
Treat your body like it is going through an ordeal - because it is. Especially the digestive system.

I suppose we can conclude this misunderstanding/debate.
Until next time.

I can 100% agree we all need a healthy diet and plenty of daily exercise. It's essential, both before and after a roll, and far in between.

TBH though I think the conclusion here is that:

5HTP supplements are unnecessary. Tryptophan supplements aren't really necessary unless your diet is low in protein. If you are not rolling hard enough, take a break, don't mess with supplements.

 

[mmmmm23]

5HTP supplements are unnecessary. Tryptophan supplements aren't really necessary unless your diet is low in protein. If you are not rolling hard enough, take a break, don't mess with supplements.

i'm a vegetarian which means my diet is quite low in protein...so i'll better stick to the L-tryptophan (post-roll) then?

 

[severely etarded]

i'm a vegetarian which means my diet is quite low in protein...so i'll better stick to the L-tryptophan (post-roll) then?

What kind of stuff do you regularly eat? shouldn't be a problem post roll, however if you drink milk or eat eggs shouldn't be aproblem. sesame seeds are second to milk in tryptophan.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Thanks again Folley.

And thanks to Severely as well - others in the past have not done as well in reaching a consensus with me.
It is now pretty clear that you simply misunderstood my post and meant to cause no confrontation.

To the vegetarian poster...
It is not necessary to eat meat in order to gain all the protein and amino acids that your body requires.
But it IS important to get them elsewhere.
Tryptophan is not the only concern...

Eliminating nearly ALL animal protein from the diet is associated with a significant reduction in the risk of developing CANCER - the 2nd leading cause of death in the USA. It turns out that consuming red meat in particular encourages the disruption of normal mitosis, thought to be the cellular cause of this incurable 'disease'.
So there are indeed REAL benefits to avoiding meat - although I personally find the threat of cancer to be insufficient to deny myself meat. It does, however, shine a light on the massive ongoing PORTIONS that we are allowed to consume - which were NEVER BEFORE AVAILABLE to average humans!

Eating very SMALL portions of red meat, while focusing on fish seems to be the best plan.
Going completely vegetarian is not without risk.
I strongly suggest researching some dietary recommendations.
You should be eating nuts and beans on a regular basis. That means daily.
And not just SOY beans, as they have been linked with hormonal disruption.

Vegetarians that are not eating abundant sources of plant protein are making poor decisions that will eventually cause health problems.

I know a 'vegetarian' that hardly even eats vegetables.
She survives on carbs, not veggies.
The only thing keeping her alive is the allowance of milk/cheese/eggs/fish!
Some 'vegetarian' she is. 8)

For some people, lifestyle choices like this are not really about conscience, they are about control.
A similar truth is found in anorexia and bulemia - both are eating disorders that stem from LOSS OF CONTROL.
And naturally, I am going to point out that SEROTONIN is a KEY element in this equation.

The young lady I just mentioned used to be quitethe carnivore, by the way.
She grew up watching her two brothers and dad greedily stuff their faces with meat every day. And she did the same.
It wasn't until she reached 18 and used psylocibin that she realized how HORRIFIED she was for eating the FLESH of other creatures for so many years. She was literally DISGUSTED with herself, in a deep way.

There were more important issues influencing her emotions - like being the only girl, the youngest child, having an often absent father, divorced parents, and finally a mother that DIED when she was 17.
Yet she chose to focus on ANIMAL FLESH while tripping.
She chose something VISCERAL, something she could control.
Two years later she still hasn't changed her mind.

This is a visceral emotion, and all visceral emotions arise from the connection between the intestines and the brain. Serotonin is the key that connects them - and this girl only discovered her 'true' feelings when she played around with serotonergic drugs. MDMA is all about 'visceral' feelings, is it not?

Serotonin is a factor in eating disorders, digestive disorders, psychological disorders, psychotic disorders...
Hmm...

I should also mention that this same young woman later binged on MDMA for a month at age 18!
During the following year, while recovering - she did 8 hits of LSD in ONE NIGHT!
Now, at nearly 21 years old - she sees tracers every single day.

And she probably will for the rest of her life.
Her dad still does - and he did LSD in the 60s!
Her false sense of 'control' over her visceral reality has permanently changed who she is.

All these stories I offer up to Bluelight about the consequences of serotonergic drugs and their impact on the brain-gut connection are genuine.
Not a single anecdote is invented.
I only wish I had discovered them before I damaged my own brain-gut connection.

Anyways...
A little off-topic, I suppose.

Um, yes - you might consider taking tryptophan post roll. :D
But I still recommend waiting at least 48-72 hours!
Quite a few people have had acute reactions to MDMA 2-3 days AFTER the roll.
I'm completely serious.

I strongly suspect resumed activity in the intestines as the cause of this delayed effect.

 

[Renz Envy]

I noticed a huge difference in my recovery speed after supplementing tryptophan post roll. I normally stop taking it 1-2 days prior to my roll and switch to a high protein diet (My diet is already high protein as I eat more g of protein than I weigh).

As for developing SS from supplementing tryptophan alone with moderate MDMA use, I believe that is highly unlikely FBC. I've only seen SS once in my life and complete stimulant induced psychosis once as well, both were caused by bad doses and drug combinations. I think it's safe to recommend nightly L-tryptophan supplementation. However I your tending to the side of caution is never disrespected by me.

 

[mmmmm23]

@severely etarded:
I'm definitely not the most healthy eater there is, but i eat quite a lot of milk products, eggs and vegetables.. Almost everything except meat/fish. I also have not experienced any further problems with my diet. I had a little lack of minerals a few months ago but that was sorted within a few days... also no bad experiences AT ALL with the use of mdma. comedowns are not so harsh for me (depends on the amount of mdma of course), with tryptophan before sleep theres almost no comedown at all.

@The Bad Comedown:
I know that i have to eat a lot of vegetables while being vegetarian I also do eat milk, cheese, eggs. For clarity, Vegetarian means: Eating nothing from dead animals. Vegan means: Eating nothing from animals at all. So theres a huge difference and i will agree that being VEGAN is a risk to health when not done right. But being vegetarian, i still eat a lot of animal protein - which is definitely not necessary for a healthy body btw - and the only thing i could possibly be lacking is Vitamin B12, nothing less. And being a vegetarian is not a eating disorder, i hope i didn't misunderstood you there. I am a vegetarian for multiple political and moral reasons (i would explain it to you in detail if you are interested) and fully aware of what i do...

Another thing: I went to a festival this summer and heres what i did...

Additional to smoking weed everyday and drinking NO alcohol AT ALL, i consumed the following:

Day 1: 1 pill of ecstacy (clearly containing MDMA), tryptophan before sleep
Day 2: Speed, tryptophan before sleep
Day 3: MDMA (crystaline), tryptophan before sleep
Day 4: Cocaine, tryptophan before sleep
Day 5: MDMA (crystaline), tryptophan before sleep

EDIT: i have to point out that the mdma worked all the time to full effect, although i had to increase the dose slightly at the third time (obviously). this may of course also have to do with me being not too abusive with mdma - i consumed mdma 10-15 times in my life - maximum, if not less!

i had no bad mood for the whole time, also i was feeling really great everytime i stood up. i know this cant be too healthy to mess up your serotonin levels in that way, but at least i always took a day off in between :D and i have to mention that - for the amount of drugs i consumed - i ate very good and healthy. and i ate a lot.
this is the reason why i'm so positive about the tryptophan... but i also experienced this:

when i took tryptophan for a few days (without the prior use of mdma) i tended to be really tired and fall asleep with having bad dreams ocasionally. so i stopped taking it and now i would only take it if im not able to sleep or if i feel my serotonin levels are empted out, to prevent me from gettin a depression any thoughts?