4-aco-dmt redundancies

[djfriendly]

Sorry for the off-topic, but these posts above remind me why I get so angry every time there's a "first-time mushroom dosage" thread and people recommend starting at 3.5g or more.

 

[4-acetoxy-dmt mule]

Well for me my first mushroom experience was 3.5g and it was the best mushroom experience to date, even considering I have used them 15 or so times since then in dosages from 1-5g and with that lemon/grapefruit juice shooter method, as well. An eighth, for me, was exactly the right introduction.

I never, and have never on mushrooms, came anywhere near ego loss.

Edit: After 24 hours the water solution (kept at room temperature in a sealed mason jar) has stayed completely clear. No sign of breaking down. I have just started the grain alcohol part of the experiment, with 10mg being added to Everclear in a sealed mason jar. Will update.

 

[Dondante]

Sorry for the off-topic, but these posts above remind me why I get so angry every time there's a "first-time mushroom dosage" thread and people recommend starting at 3.5g or more.

I would never recommend 30 mg to a first-timer, but Xorkoth is about as far from a first-timer as there is! And my recommendation was specifically for him. I must say though, an eighth of shrooms is where I started, and that is probably what I would recommend for most first-timers if I recommended tripping at all. This is, however, a new chemical that doesn't have a long list of experiences to help define a dosage range. I recommend to start low, unless your name is Xorkoth. If you were to take a few weeks off from psychs, 20 - 25 mg would probably be fine, but I think your tolerance is probably similar to what mine was. Of course, don't take my recommendation as an order. Start where you feel comfortable. If you have any questions, shoot me a PM so I can avoid cluttering the thread.

 

[illusion25]

hmm interesting. 3.5 g of shrooms was my first experence. i enjoy eating lower doses but i usually need at least 3 grams of shrooms to get visuals or any type of mind trip. anything lower gives me giggles and euphoria.
I dont really have a high tolerance to trytamines. my dosage is usually the same level of others here on this board, except for shrooms.
i usually like to eat 5-7 grams(potent).

I never, and have never on mushrooms, came anywhere near ego loss

if you eat 7 gams or more i guarantee youll have ego loss. if you have already done this then i dont know what to tell you.
a bag (3.5g) of shrooms is definetly enough to show you the power and strength of the mushroom, but when you reach doses of 7g and over then shrooms put you at a whole new level.
i bet there is a breakthru dose at around 10-14 grams of shrooms. something i want to try soon. it is the chaotic madness of shrooms that scares me sometimes.

 

[djfriendly]

@dondante: you've misread my post, it was not directed to any particular reply, much less yours, sorry about that. It was as I said, an off-topic aside regarding other threads which one sees on occasion about 1st time use of mushrooms by newbies, wherein one sees very high dosage recommendations (5g and above). This despite the fact that as noted above, many well-seasoned psychedelic users find 2-3g a strong trip (myself included though I'd not be so bold as to call myself well-seasoned, maybe just salt-n-peppered).

 

[4-acetoxy-dmt mule]

48 hours on the water/10mg and 24 hours for the grain alcohol/10mg and neither one has changed color, even slightly.

 

[Delsyd]

^well its definetly more stable than miprocin/mipracetyl.

My guess is this will be pretty stable, because from what i hear/read that is the whole reasoning behind making the fumarate.

Keep it in there for awhile though just to be sure.

 

[Trogdor]

This thread isn't little itty bitty at all...

 

[MadShroomer]

SWIM loves this one...

Here is a cool Photoshop pic I made

I'm fairly satisfied with the final result.
Also, SWIM thinks this compound is AMAZING,
does take 2.5 to 3h to peak but WHAT an AMAZING peak it is. Insuffilation is SWIM's prefered method of injestion as this provides an initial "rush" effect followed by a slow and insanely mild come up followed by a pleasant and extended comedown when compared to P.Cubensis.
SWIM has tried I.V. dose of 10mg and would have rather snorted it as SWIM found out the initial rush was INTENSE AS ALL CRAP but the peak was less "Magical" and much shorter in duration. SWIM thinks that the acetyl bond provides this molecule with the ability to pass directly through the blood brain barrier as it does with di-acetyl-morphine. SWIM believes that once inside the blood brain barrier it is converted into 4-ho-dmt and somehow SWIM feels that the peak on ~35mg was an insane breakthrough with much more lucidity and ego dissolution similar to a high dose of LSD or DMT. Overall SWIM rates this at an Astounding ++++ compaired to other RC's SWIM has tried. SWIM believes this to be far supperior to its naturally occuring cousins 4-PO-DMT and 4-HO-DMT (relatively speaking its broken down into Psilocin in the body but that magical acetyl bond protects and insures its mission of reaching the central kingdom after passing through the body).

SWIM usually only does a new RC once to get a "taste" but found out with this molecule a 6 day "benge" followed...
Day 1: ~10mg insuffilated by SWIM and SWIM's friend. Initial "rush" effect was noted immediately followed by a mild 'shroom experience equivalent to 1.0-1.5g dried P.Cubensis.
Day 2: ~30mg insuffilated by SWIM and SWIM's friend (This was as high as SWIM got, best peak and SWIM's friend agrees). A definate ++++ experience.
Day 3: ~15mg insufilated by SWIM and SWIM's friend, this time only 3/5 the intensity of day 1 experience (0.5 - 1.0g P.Cubensis).
Day 4: ~20mg insufliated by SWIM and SWIM's friend, this time tolerance has increased greatly as effects were comparative to 10mg on day 1.
Day 5: ~10mg@T-0h. Then ~10mg@T+0.5h and another ~10mg@T+1.0h. This repeated doseing led to 3 distinct peaks arriving one after the other in 30 minute increments, according to SWIM and SWIM's friend and at the T+2.5h point SWIM reaches:
V___V___V___V___V___V
Day 6 (past midnight from day 5 dose): ~20mg is insuffilated by SWIM and SWIM's friend. SWIM starts to watch "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" 2005 Johny Dept movie and is definately "feeling" it like on day 2 but still not as intense a peak even though SWIM and SWIM's friend did more than 3 times the Day 2 dose. SWIM realizes that a break is needed as SWIM's tolerance has spiked.

 

[Dondante]

^^Glad you enjoyed yourself. Six days though ... perhaps a little excessive?

... does take 2.5 to 3h to peak but WHAT an AMAZING peak it is. Insuffilation is SWIM's prefered method of injestion as this provides an initial "rush" effect followed by a slow and insanely mild come up followed by a pleasant and extended comedown when compared to P.Cubensis.

The long climb to the peak with intranasal administration makes me even more confident that the 4-aco-dmt has at least some trouble passing the BBB. If it could pass easily, you would peak earlier. I bet if you insufflated 4-ho-dmt, you'd peak pretty damned fast. Anyway, thanks for the report MadShroomer.

 

[Xorkoth]

This thread isn't little itty bitty at all...

Point taken. It's now Big and Dandy like the rest of 'em.

 

[MadShroomer]

^^Glad you enjoyed yourself. Six days though ... perhaps a little excessive?



The long climb to the peak with intranasal administration makes me even more confident that the 4-aco-dmt has at least some trouble passing the BBB. If it could pass easily, you would peak earlier. I bet if you insufflated 4-ho-dmt, you'd peak pretty damned fast. Anyway, thanks for the report MadShroomer.

Actually,
SWIM DID experience an initial RUSH and this is believed to be the result of the 4-acetyl bond, wich is the same bond that turns Morhpine into Heroine (makes it more effective/addictive BECAUSE the acetyl bond enables it to pass VERY quickly through the blood/brain barrier). But don't take my word for it...check it

According to Alexander Shulgin, "In the case of psilocybin to psilocin, this saponification is essential for activity, as the phosphate ester is far too polar to get across the blood-brain barrier. But this problem need not exist with the acetate ester. I have explored the 4-hydroxy-DET but I am more familiar with the 4-hydroxy-DIPT. It is of a rather rapid onset implying possible absorption directly from the stomach. However, in a group study with the corresponding ester 4-AcO-DIPT, we felt that it had an even faster onset and perhaps a increased potency. This would suggest that it might be considered an active drug in its own right rather than simply a precursor to the active drug 4-HO-DIPT."

This quote came from here:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_acetoxy_det/4_acetoxy_det_article1.shtml

So the initial "RUSH" is the molecule entering the central kingdom, then the body does what ever and turns it into a much more potent tryptamine (this would be 4-ho-dmt but might be oxidized to a very quinonic product that is unknown).

Read the above link to the article its FACINATING!

 

[4-acetoxy-dmt mule]

Dondante: I believe you are correct. I too noticed the fast-but-not-as-fast-as-most-insufflations peak (that was remarkably similar to oral use of THIS substance, as this substance peaks fast orally).

Update on solutions: 72+ hours for the water, no change. 48+ hours on alcohol, no change. Still both crystal clear.

Update on experiences: SWRIM tried 10mg insufflated last night (@ 140lbs) and peaked out at a very very intense +++ that lasted around 3-4 hours. They said it was the strongest mushroom experience they had ever undertaken, and said they would gladly experience it again in the future, though the effects drained them by the end similar to post-trip acid burnout but nowhere near as bad.

Further personal commentary on 4-ACO-DMT in comparison to mushrooms (sorry, easiest way to describe it), now after 3 experiences and NO ++++ yet:

-Less closed eye visuals.
-Less defined closed eye visuals.
-More open eye visuals.
-Longer experience, though orally it is too long for most.
-No pain during insufflation.
-No nausea.
-Apparently fantastic substance stability. It looks like it'll last much longer in storage than shrooms.

Oh and one more thing:

Update for the idiots who aren't even contributing to this thread but PM me asking where to buy drugs: Stop it.

 

[yoyoman]

Update on solutions: 72+ hours for the water, no change. 48+ hours on alcohol, no change. Still both crystal clear.

How much water did you use? If its only 10mg you might not be able to see any blueing unless its very little water.

 

[4-acetoxy-dmt mule]

I didn't even think when I did it, I used 1.5 cups. That's way too much. Forgive me for doing the experiment high. I'll redo the water one soon with 20-30ml of water.

 

[DivineMomenT]

Thanks for doing this experiment aco mule. I have seen many fumurate compounds available so hopefully they will be stable if stored in liquid.

Yoyoman, did you experience a rush when injecting the 4-aco-dmt. This method seems very appealing to me. What dose did you do and did you use saline or just regular water. Does it kick in within seconds? It just sounds like a damn good idea to me. I love needles

 

[Dondante]

According to Alexander Shulgin, "In the case of psilocybin to psilocin, this saponification is essential for activity, as the phosphate ester is far too polar to get across the blood-brain barrier. But this problem need not exist with the acetate ester. I have explored the 4-hydroxy-DET but I am more familiar with the 4-hydroxy-DIPT. It is of a rather rapid onset implying possible absorption directly from the stomach. However, in a group study with the corresponding ester 4-AcO-DIPT, we felt that it had an even faster onset and perhaps a increased potency. This would suggest that it might be considered an active drug in its own right rather than simply a precursor to the active drug 4-HO-DIPT."

The problem with this theory is that it seems that nearly everyone other than Shulgin thinks that the 4-ACOs have a slower onset and a weaker peak than the 4-HOs at the same dosage (even after accounting for MW). If someone agrees with Shulgin and has tried both versions of a particular tryptamine, by all means, let me know.

I moved the rest of the post to a thread in ADD. It's a theory for why 4-HOs are more potent and have faster onsets than 4-ACO equivalents.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=3056797#post3056797

 

[MadShroomer]

Thanks for doing this experiment aco mule. I have seen many fumurate compounds available so hopefully they will be stable if stored in liquid.

Yoyoman, did you experience a rush when injecting the 4-aco-dmt. This method seems very appealing to me. What dose did you do and did you use saline or just regular water. Does it kick in within seconds? It just sounds like a damn good idea to me. I love needles

SWIM has done this (on day 3) with ~10mg disolved into 30 units (0.3cc) of bottled water. 1 minute after injection into vein an INCREDIBLY INTENSE RUSH was felt by SWIM and lasted for a while... much more intense than insuffilation but the overall duration isn't as long and the "2nd peak" (when the molecule has already entered the brain and is converted into what ever) is shorter in duration.

Insuffilation is prefered by SWIM's friend who did this and has had experience with injection before and SWIM agrees.


Also, if you check the article posted about 4-aco compounds you'll find this quote:

"In the 4-hydroxy indole world, an obvious quinonic product would be the cross-conjugated product with the loss of the hydrogen on the hydroxy as well as the hydrogen on the indolic nitrogen. This compound would certainly be colored and, still having no polar locations, might be OK to cross the BBB [blood brain barrier]. Once inside the brain, it could be reduced to the parent hydroxy tryptamine or an even more appealing explanation might be that the absorbed 4-AcO-DIPT (4-AcO-DET in your immediate example) might, after loss of the acetyl group once inside the brain, be oxidized to this very quinonic product and it just might be the true active factor for both original forms!" If this had been true, it may have required some major revision in what we believe about the way drugs like psilocybin work. Further data seems to point in yet another direction, however."

It goes on to point out a few WIERD quinoic products, take a look at this..

 

[DivineMomenT]

SWIM wants to take a big shot like 30 mg or so. SWIM likes to trip hard and would not mind the shorter duration. SWIM will definitely write a trip if he ever does this.

 

[fizzacyst]

The guy who ate the 18mg had a longer experience... 7 hours? He didn't seem to care for it. He had a rather disturbing mushroom trip about a year ago.. might have influenced this. I can't say... probably won't see him for a while.