2C-T-7 (IVed) - Experienced - More intense than I could have ever imagined.

[Jimmy the Gun]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't harmala alkaloids MAOIs? If this is true then mixing them with MDMA is a bad idea indeed...taken from erowid
"Do not mix MAOIs with Stimulants (including MDMA). This can lead to hypertensive crisis and can be deadly."
????
peace

 

[Jabberwocky]

hmmmm i think it was wrong of me to defend someone who has not asked me to. but i do get irksome when someone insults a friend. true i didnt iv the 2ct7 after she got sick and after your warning that it was a high dose i did take your sugestion of smoking and snorting it. now i would have iv'ed the drug at a lower dose if i was going to administer it in that manner. i think murple jsut pissed me off with his insulting behavor and words....other than that cheers!
-phil-

 

[5-HT2]

Originally posted by Murple:
> I'd just like to point out that Murple's "research" with harmala
> alkaloids and MDMA falls into the same category of
> reckless, dangerous, and really stupid experiments.
Now that's just ridiculous. My "research" is nowhere near the same category as this one... First, no deaths or medical emergencies have ever been recorded involving harmala alkaloids and MDMA... the idea that this is a dangerous combination is based on a total misunderstanding of the pharmacology involved and the rumor has been spread by people that just don't know what they're talking about.
Hmmmm…I REALLY doubt that the neuro profs whom I asked about this have no idea what they're talking about (my university's bio department is among the top 10 in the country). Granted, I haven't asked a specialist in MDMA pharmacology, so maybe we'll have to go to one for the final word. I believe fairnymph and babydoc_vic have posted some references supporting our side of this argument.

Second, harmala alkaloids have been used with other phenethylamines with zero negative results.
I am not disputing this, nor that they have been used with MDMA with zero negative results. Obviously they have, but that does not mean it is safe for all people. As you well know, there have been deaths resulting from a combination of moclobemide or MDMA (granted, I have not investigated these, so it could just be due to a lowered overdose threshold).
I have snorted ~15 mg 2C-T-7 before, with ZERO negative results. That does not mean that this is safe for all people. I found out it was safe for me through gradually ramping up my parenteral dosage from 5 mg.

Third, there is no theoretical basis to assume that the combination would be inherently dangerous.
Please, explain to me IN TECHNICAL DETAIL (greater than you have given so far in any of our previous discussions on this board) why this is true, and feel free to get as involved as you wish. I know I am making you repeat yourself, so just bear with me. I personally believe that we just don't know enough about the workings of the MAO's, and their variance in function between individuals, to default to the assumption that the combination is safe.

Fourth, other people have done the combination and recorded positive results - so my "experiment" can't really be considered research - it was simply repeating a KNOWN SAFE combination.
At least one other person has IV'ed a larger dose of 2C-T-7 and recorded positive results, as you yourself pointed out to fairnymph. I think our disagreement here is founded on the question of what constitutes a good sample size. Of course for 2C-T-7 it is way too small. What is the sample size and average dose? Can you post/e-mail me a list of data on which I can do a statistical analysis (for my personal edification in determining whether I want to try this combination)?

Fifth, I started with extremely low doses and worked up from there.
I myself criticized fairnymph for not doing this.

I could go on listing the differences here, but I think that's enough to establish that this is nothing like going off and injecting what is known to be a large IV dose of a drug with several documented deaths and even more documented medical emergencies. What I did was something which both theory and evidence indicate is safe. What Fairnymph did is something which both theory and evidence indicate is highly dangerous. Same category? No, opposite categories.[/QB]
Convince me. So far, you're doing a good job.
As I have mentioned before, I am very intrigued by the possibility of a "hardcore psychedelic trip" from MDMA, for I have always had more fulfilling, less e-tarded experiences whenever I psychedelicized the MDMA experience with another drug. I feel that I am missing the spiritual component of MDMA in the rush of euphoria, and I think that adding the harmala alkaloids will help me orient toward the issues that I wish to tackle (it CERTAINLY helped when I added syrian rue to mushrooms). However, I hestitate to try the harmala + MDMA combo because I greatly fear for my safety, much as I would from IVing 2C-T-7. Please, Murple, can you post some more detailed info on the combo?
I don't want to be pushy, but perhaps you should write an FAQ about combinations of harmala with various psychedelics/entactogens. You seem to have plenty of experience. That way you could put all the info into one authoritative place and help prevent any OD's from people not scaling down their psychedelic/entactogen dosage when they combine with harmala.

 

[Murple]

I think I posted a pretty detailed discussion of these issues in the Psychedelic Drugs forum a few weeks back... but the short version:
There are many warnings in medical literature against mixing MAOIs with amphetamines. This is based on the fact that mixing MAO-B inhibitors with the classic dopaminergic stimulant amphetamines is risky. Harmala alkaloids are MAO-A inhibitors, and MDMA is a mostly serotonergic psychedelic that is an amphetamine mostly by chemistry rather than pharmacology. The warnings don't apply. The only risk from mixing MDMA with harmala alkaloids is due to the potentiation making overdose (ie, serotonin syndrome) possible with smaller doses. That just means you need to use smaller doses. There is no other danger from the combo which has ever turned up from people trying the mix, nor can I think of any theoretical reason why it would cause a hypertensive crisis (the usual reason cited for why the mix is dangerous). Hypertensive crises from MAOIs are due to the fact that when MAO-B is inhibited, tyramine levels can skyrocket. MDMA contains no tyramine, and harmala alkaloids are inhibiting a different MAO enzyme.
Calling the mix of harmala and MDMA deadly is rumormongering... How can it be called deadly if nobody's died from it? This reminds me of the often repeated superstition that amanita muscaria can kill people through liver failure, even though muscaria contains no amatoxins and no recorded deaths have ever occured. People who don't fully understand the situation are repeating unconfirmed rumors based on fears that have no basis in reality.
This is getting off-topic. Perhaps a new thread should be started in another forum if we're going to go over this MDMA/harmala thing again.

 

[fairnymph]

Murple --

I can't help but question the wisdom and sanity of a person who injects experimental drugs purchased from shady internet companies.

Wisdom/sanity != intelligence. I believe I am pretty intelligent but I definitely question my sanity at times.

Regarding the 'shady internet company', how many FUCKING times do I have to tell you that I don't buy my drugs off the internet? Just because YOU do doesn't mean everyone else does. I'm seriously beginning to question your intelligence after this comment...and after observing your inability to read/spell my name correctly.

Anyways, I'm not going to get into an extended discussion of my morals/sanity/wisdom with you, Murple. I'm well aware of the fact that you think I am a foolish moron while you consider yourself an omniscient psychonaut. But frankly, I don't give a fuck what you think, and I'm so fed up with your condescending attitude (and hypocrisy) at this point that I just don't have the patience to respond to your attacks. I didn't post this trip report in order to discuss the wisdom of my decision, and I questioned that wisdom myself, so lay off me okay?

Although I don't feel the need to justify why I decided to take the dose I did, rest assured that I considered the dosage very carefully and that I came my decision based on a number of factors and past experience with psychedelics.

I'm not even going to get into the MAOI/MDMA thing, you know what I think about that. I don't like to beat a dead horse.

5ht -- I really don't think that ONE erowid report is enough to determine whether IVing 2ct7 diminishes nausea at all (and, incidentally, I did read that report ).There simply ISN'T a large body of experimental informaton regarding IV 2ct7, which was one of the major reasons I decided to experiment myself (a strange (and perhaps foolish) form of altruism, admittedly).

5HT-2 --

She should have known better, considering her nausea from 35 mg orally.

The nausea wasn't the issue, really. There was going to be nausea either way. The biggest concern I had during my trip was regarding my body load and tension, but not necessarily the nausea. It wasn't really THAT much worse than the nausea when I took 2-ct-7 orally.

To think, if I had not taken that precaution, she would have vomited all over my floor and *I* would have been the one cleaning it up.

While it was very nice of you to provide that box ( ), I don't think you can say that I would have necessarily vomited on your floor regardless. I would have run to the toilet from the first had the box/trash option not been available to me. And don't forget that just last week you vomited all over your roomate's bed. So, I think that comment was uncalled for...

 

[5ht]

5ht -- I really don't think that ONE erowid report is enough to determine whether IVing 2ct7 diminishes nausea at all (and, incidentally, I did read that report ).There simply ISN'T a large body of experimental informaton regarding IV 2ct7, which was one of the major reasons I decided to experiment myself (a strange (and perhaps foolish) form of altruism, admittedly).
fairnymph, I can really, really relate to being curious about new ways of administering any drug. Hell, I even thought about buying caffeinated soap the other day. I just couldn’t buy the idea that you tried it because you thought it would be better on the stomach… Either you ignored 100% of the Erowid reports on IVing t7 (hey, it’s the only one, so its 100%), or you did it for the ulterior reasons you just mentioned.
Ulterior reasons I can respect...

 

[Jimmy the Gun]

Calling the mix of harmala and MDMA deadly is rumormongering
excuse me for quoting erowid....
peace

 

[5ht]

Originally posted by Jimmy the Gun:

excuse me for quoting erowid....
peace
Erowid is a good source of references, but it shouldn't be taken as an ultimate source of truth. There is a great deal of exageration in many of the reports out there. "deadly" is highly exagerated until someone actually is reported dead.

 

[Murple]

Well, while you may in fact not be buying your drugs off the internet, I'm pretty sure your 2C-T-7 isn't coming from certified pharmaceutical labs unless GlaxoSmithKline or Perdue Pharma have started up a new product line of exotic psychedelics. In the end, whether you buy it off the internet or from one of your buddies, you're shooting up a product made under the aegis of hobby chemistry. Not too bright.
You can go around being sick of my attitude and taking things personally and ignoring the facts as much as you want, but in the end, you're still doing foolish things that are putting you at risk. I probably wouldn't lose too muce sleep if you ended up darwinizing yourself, but hey, if you've got no regard for personal safety, thats your choice. Just dont expect not to be criticized if you go around publically presenting your actions as responsible research.

 

[fairnymph]

Murple -- You just don't like being nice, do you? Ah well, you win some, you lose some...

An interesting observation: I seem to have mild HPPD after this experience. Lights look pretty and I seem to 'feel' music (the vibrations etc) alot more. It's a pretty pleasant side effect, I might add.

 

[u40915]

Agreed. And this is 'Trip Reports', not 'solicitation for comments on the wiseness of my dosage and whatever else you feel like bitching about', so people should lay off with that stuff.

 

[5-HT2]

Originally posted by Murple:
Well, while you may in fact not be buying your drugs off the internet, I'm pretty sure your 2C-T-7 isn't coming from certified pharmaceutical labs unless GlaxoSmithKline or Perdue Pharma have started up a new product line of exotic psychedelics. In the end, whether you buy it off the internet or from one of your buddies, you're shooting up a product made under the aegis of hobby chemistry. Not too bright.

What really pisses me off about you is your assumption that we must all only have access to "hobby chemistry." Just because a chemical does not come out of a pharmaceutical lab does not mean it isn't pure. This 2C-T-7 came from a trained chemist and I myself did a GC/MS and NMR of it to ascertain its purity. Of course, that was last summer, so it could have degraded since then.

 

[Murple]

Well, you can be pissed off until you're neck high in urine, but that's not going to make it any less true.

 

[5-HT2]

^^^^^I don't follow your logic. Are you assuming that I do not know how to analyze an NMR or mass spectrum?
I probably shouldn't be defending fairnymph so much in this regard, as I have no plans to IV any research chemicals, pure or not, and I would prefer, for safety reasons, that other people didn't either. Just plug it

 

[Jabberwocky]

ahhaha yeah right 5ht-2 adn get the ass burning of doom!
-phil-

 

[5-HT2]

^^^^^^^^^^True. You really can't escape the burn no matter how you go about administering the shit

 

[Splatt]

Very good report fairnymph!
I'm not going to get into this argument though like the rest seem to want to. You did something I wouldn't do, but your experienced and knowledgable in drugs, but then again you can never be too safe.
Are you sure you have mild HPPD? You're getting effects that are stronger than the acid "after-glow"?
I thought there was no mild HPPD, and HPPD is only diagnosed to people that have a post-psychedelics condition that interfers with normal life?
Anyway, thanks again for the report.

 

[Catch-22]

fairnymph: Well written and thanks for sharing!

In the spirit of harm reduction (and not to badger anyone), let me offer my opinions:
1. Research chemicals need to be weighed out very accurately. I have regular access to a balance that goes to 0.1 mg. I strongly suggest you have a balance sensitive to 2 mg if you are considering research chemicals. This is not directed at people who have access to GC/MS, HPLC, NMR, etc....I am sure they have a 0.001 mg balance available. But to other people reading this thread, please don't take the risk of misjudging your dosage.
2. I personally would never IV (or snort) psychedelics. I am not even talking about the purity and/or danger issues. What about the sense that taking psychedelics is a journey? An experience where each aspect of the trip (including the "come up") is to be savored? This is not a judgment, I am just pointing out the difference in philosophy.
3. As someone experienced with 2CT7, let me also add that it is difficult to judge when you have returned to baseline. I would recommend not mixing other drugs into your experience. I think the after-effects of 2CT7 can last for two weeks....for me, one symptom is increased levels of lucid dreaming.

 

[fairnymph]

1. Research chemicals need to be weighed out very accurately.
I weighed my dose out on scale accurate to 1 mg. I also agree that this is an extremely important part of using research chemicals..and obviously more so when you inject them.
2. I personally would never IV (or snort) psychedelics. I am not even talking about the purity and/or danger issues. What about the sense that taking psychedelics is a journey? An experience where each aspect of the trip (including the "come up") is to be savored? This is not a judgment, I am just pointing out the difference in philosophy.
The issue with me personally, is that I am incredibly hard headed when it comes to the psychedelics, and it simply isn't very cost effective (and even with high oral doses, I still don't necessarily reach the level I am seeking) for me to do drugs via other, more traditional routes of administration.
3. As someone experienced with 2CT7, let me also add that it is difficult to judge when you have returned to baseline. I would recommend not mixing other drugs into your experience. I think the after-effects of 2CT7 can last for two weeks....for me, one symptom is increased levels of lucid dreaming.
I have never had ANY difficulty judging when I had 'returned to baseline' -- at least, I know that I am sober enough to be able to do other drugs/drive/etc safely. So this isn't a concern for me...
I do agree, btw, that 2ct7 has extended aftereffects...at least for a week in my case. Mostly its been pleasant HPPD-type symptoms.

 

[stardreamer]

d4mn yo i cantz wait ta' git ma' handz on sum o d33z mad re. chemz so I can git fuqqqqeed 2!!
hehe j/k (/comedy relief)