So your not right wing then? For someone thats not right wing you sure have alot in common with right wingers. Very snowflakish imo
2024 Paris Summer Olympics
- Thread starter someguyontheinternet
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So your not right wing then? For someone thats not right wing you sure have alot in common with right wingers. Very snowflakish imo
mal3volent
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This type of variance exists amongst men and women equally. Bigger bodies, smaller bodies. All types of different skill sets and physicalities. We hone this a bit depending on which sport we're talking about. Weight classes. Age brackets. Amateur, collegiate, professional.
But the reason why we've always separated the sexes is because the advantages are too great on average.
I'm not hung up on this one individual, only as it relates to the larger point.
Sure, you will have some less gifted XY individuals lose on occasion to better trained XX individuals, but those would be the exceptions that prove the rule if we were to ever have a larger data set. Perhaps soon we will.
Why not let men play in the WNBA? Or just dissolve the WNBA and let everyone compete for spots on NBA rosters? Let women swimmers compete against the men? Etc. That would be the end of females in sports.
I do not pretend to be a biologist or a sports testing expert, just expressing some common sense takes. The more this becomes the norm, the further and further the line will get moved.
Why does it need to be a straight male or straight woman? Why anything really. All the fucking snowflakes here damn
I have had your goddamn ideology shoved in my face since i was fucking born! All you see when you turn on TV is capitalist bullshit and more capitalist bullshit.
Lmao. Settle down commie.
arrall
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Both of the "trans women" are cisgender females.
They were born as females, they have always identified as females, and they have always competed as females.
The IBA is run by a man with strong ties to Putin and is strongly connected to a corrupt Russian company.
They suddenly decided that Khelif should be disqualified for "being a man" 3 days after she beat her previously undefeated Russian opponent.
Even if the two candidates do have high testosterone, so do most other boxers.
Innate biological advantages are part of sports.
Are we going to go disqualify Michael Phelps for having a long wingspan or Shaq for being too tall in order to make sports more "fair"?
Grow up.
They were born as females, they have always identified as females, and they have always competed as females.
The IBA is run by a man with strong ties to Putin and is strongly connected to a corrupt Russian company.
They suddenly decided that Khelif should be disqualified for "being a man" 3 days after she beat her previously undefeated Russian opponent.
Even if the two candidates do have high testosterone, so do most other boxers.
Innate biological advantages are part of sports.
Are we going to go disqualify Michael Phelps for having a long wingspan or Shaq for being too tall in order to make sports more "fair"?
Grow up.
mal3volent
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If anyone wants a comprehensive view of this issue, I would recommend reading this:
www.3wiresports.com
Two athletes, including Khelif, underwent two separate tests. One in Istanbul, one in New Delhi. The findings of these tests indicated XY chromosomes, which for women, indicate DSD:
They are not men, or transsexual. They are women who essentially go through male puberty. (This is my understanding, but I'm sure there is a more nuanced definition out there. Khelif "does not identify as intersex".)
Both athletes had the opportunity to appeal the findings. One declined. Khelif initially wanted to appeal but later backed out.
Also, important to point out that the new IOC guidelines essentially only look at what is printed on an individual's passport to determine their sex.
If you are a person who has ever played sports, been a fan of sports, or just care about reason and logic-- I think you'll see why this is a complex issue for women's sports.
Ignorant people calling Khelif a tranny on one side, while the other side hops on their soap box to scold everyone for being bigots (while ignoring all facts and critical thinking).
Hopefully one day our society can get back to a place where we are concerned with finding the truth more than cheerleading for our side of the culture war.
IBA letter to IOC, June 2023: Boxer's 'DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes' | 3 Wire Sports
PARIS – The athlete who has ignited a worldwide controversy in Olympic women’s boxing was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Assn. world championships in New Delhi after two tests, one in India amid that tournament and a prior test in Turkey in May 2022, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was t
www.3wiresports.com
Two athletes, including Khelif, underwent two separate tests. One in Istanbul, one in New Delhi. The findings of these tests indicated XY chromosomes, which for women, indicate DSD:
They are not men, or transsexual. They are women who essentially go through male puberty. (This is my understanding, but I'm sure there is a more nuanced definition out there. Khelif "does not identify as intersex".)
Both athletes had the opportunity to appeal the findings. One declined. Khelif initially wanted to appeal but later backed out.
Also, important to point out that the new IOC guidelines essentially only look at what is printed on an individual's passport to determine their sex.
If you are a person who has ever played sports, been a fan of sports, or just care about reason and logic-- I think you'll see why this is a complex issue for women's sports.
Ignorant people calling Khelif a tranny on one side, while the other side hops on their soap box to scold everyone for being bigots (while ignoring all facts and critical thinking).
Hopefully one day our society can get back to a place where we are concerned with finding the truth more than cheerleading for our side of the culture war.
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Male puberty is triggered by SOX9, usually this happens through activation of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome. This process converts dipotential gonads into male testes, where testosterone is produced. In some cases SOX9 is not triggered which means the result is a female, with female estrogen producing gonads. I believe this is what happened in the case of the boxer, there is no reason to disqualify her because she does not have male testosterone producing gonads. She has estrogen producing gonads
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How are people ignoring facts or critical thinking though? Isn't them being normal women a fact? Does it not take some level of critical thinking to look at all this, do the research, and come to the conclusion that it's much ado about nothing?
All of this hormone testing and BS is new anyway. Does anyone really think they have been testing people's chromosomes and hormone levels at any point in these contests before the last couple decades, if that??
They're women. They're not using steroids, doping, or anything illegal. They can compete with other women. Full stop. Everything else is arbitrary.
All of this hormone testing and BS is new anyway. Does anyone really think they have been testing people's chromosomes and hormone levels at any point in these contests before the last couple decades, if that??
They're women. They're not using steroids, doping, or anything illegal. They can compete with other women. Full stop. Everything else is arbitrary.
mal3volent
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As I have consistently said, I don't think this one particular case is super important and I am not qualified to make authoritative statements on it. My only issues have been people are saying the tests have been proven false, but they haven't. The guy's credibility has been brought into question, but the tests have not been disproven. Also we keep switching from "the XY chromosome thing is fake news" to "XY chromosomes actually don't matter, what's the big deal"? So I mean, which is it?
All I'm really saying is I think ensuring competitive fairness and an even playing field is kinda the bedrock of sports...and biological sex plays a huge factor in that. Fringe cases like these with dsd and intersex individuals are probably negligible in their impact, but the broader question remains. The idea that the IOC now looks at passports as the ultimate verification of biological sex is not a great sign for the future...
All I'm really saying is I think ensuring competitive fairness and an even playing field is kinda the bedrock of sports...and biological sex plays a huge factor in that. Fringe cases like these with dsd and intersex individuals are probably negligible in their impact, but the broader question remains. The idea that the IOC now looks at passports as the ultimate verification of biological sex is not a great sign for the future...
Someone's credibility can be in question while the thing they are stating can also not matter like they claim. Those things are not mutually exclusive
If a person has female estrogen producing gonads instead of male testosterone producing gonads, what advantage does having XY convey?
If a person has female estrogen producing gonads instead of male testosterone producing gonads, what advantage does having XY convey?
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They also haven't been quantified, verified, assessed, or reviewed, by anyone. So there's essentially no real claim here to be disproven, because we're going off of one person/organizations word.
I mean I've read that "yeah it says she's a woman on her passport", but has the IOC actually said that that's the only thing they check?
I think the statement by the IOC said that they don't want to reinstitute the known abusive sex checking of the past and also don't want to make athletes undergo any unnecessary medical procedures, could be wrong tho can't remember exactly where I read that
arrall
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As much as I trust the bastion of truth and journalism that we all know “3 Wire Sports” to be through their decades of hard-hitting reporting, I am going to clarify a few things.
I see that @someguyontheinternet has already explained the science to you @mal3volent
At no point was evidence of those claims ever released.
The IBA was formally discredited by the IOC due to severe corruption and the IBA’s ties to the Russian government, a European crime syndicate, and a Russian corporation.
Khelif beat a Russian fighter, and the IBA suddenly claimed that she “had XY chromosomes.”
There is no evidence that either athlete has XY chromosomes.
I see that @someguyontheinternet has already explained the science to you @mal3volent
At no point was evidence of those claims ever released.
The IBA was formally discredited by the IOC due to severe corruption and the IBA’s ties to the Russian government, a European crime syndicate, and a Russian corporation.
Khelif beat a Russian fighter, and the IBA suddenly claimed that she “had XY chromosomes.”
There is no evidence that either athlete has XY chromosomes.
mal3volent
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Except that they underwent testing twice in two separate countries and chose not to appeal
mal3volent
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Alan Abrahamson
One of the world’s foremost experts on the Olympic movement, Alan Abrahamson is an award-winning sportswriter, best-selling author and in-demand television analyst.
annenberg.usc.edu
mal3volent
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Alan Abrahamson
One of the world’s foremost experts on the Olympic movement, Alan Abrahamson is an award-winning sportswriter, best-selling author and in-demand television analyst.
From 2006 until 2010, Abrahamson served as a columnist at NBCOlympics.com, NBCSports.com, and UniversalSports.com. For the 17 years before that, he was a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times — nine years in news, the last eight in sports. The 2020 Tokyo Games marked his eleventh Olympics, Summer and Winter; he is a member of the International Olympic Committee’s press committee.
At USC Annenberg, Abrahamson has had the privilege — now for more than 10 years — of teaching to grad students and undergrads alike. Courses have ranged across sports, news, and law. Abrahamson is a 1980 graduate of Northwestern University’s Medill School of Journalism in Evanston, Ill., and a 1987 graduate of the University of California’s Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco; he is a member (inactive) of the State Bar of California.
He and his wife, Laura, live in Hermosa Beach, California. They have three children.
Awards and Honors:
AIPS international sportswriters association award (2021)
Sports Emmy for innovation, NBCOlympics.com (2016, 2014, 2008)
Track and Field Writers of America Adam Jacobs Memorial Award (2014)
L.A. Press Club sports journalist of the year (2004)
National Headliner Award (2002)
Annnnnnnd there it is. When in doubt, Russia.
arrall
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So when the burden of proof is on you for evidence, you point to ambiguous statements on some guy’s website and the fact that two contestants chose not to appeal to a blatantly corrupt and now discredited agency and instead just compete in the event that matters?
It’s weird that you constantly talk about how all Muslim countries hate LGBTQ people, but I guess in your worldview Algeria would be putting up a trans woman as its Olympic boxing contestant so it could throw her off of a building once she steps off the plane and they grab the gold medal.
Where are the political props when you need them?
mal3volent
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So when the burden of proof is on you for evidence, you point to ambiguous statements on some guy’s website and the fact that two contestants chose not to appeal to a blatantly corrupt and now discredited agency and instead just compete in the event that matters?
It’s weird that you constantly talk about how all Muslim countries hate LGBTQ people, but I guess in your worldview Algeria would be putting up a trans woman as its Olympic boxing contestant so it could throw her off of a building once she steps off the plane and they grab the gold medal.
Where are the political props when you need them?
You literally cannot retain information in your head for longer than 5 seconds at a time I guess. How many times have I said she's not trans? I realize you want to work transphobia or racism into every goddamned interaction you have with people you disagree with, but this is just getting ridiculous.