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2017 Trump Presidency Thread

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This post covers two topics:
1. How a grand jury works, and
2. Why it matters that Bob Mueller impaneled one.

Everything you wanted to know about grand juries.

This is the best article I found about the function of a grand jury. It's very well written. Highlights below:

Bob Mueller Is Using a Grand Jury. Here’s What It Means

* Only a grand jury can issue an indictment, which is the only way that someone can be charged with committing a felony pursuant to the U.S. Constitution.

* A grand jury, which consists of 16 to 23 people, is an important tool that allows prosecutors to issue subpoenas that require people to produce documents and other evidence.

* Subpoenas can also be used to compel people to testify under oath before the grand jury.

* The work that grand juries do is secret, which means that grand jurors—who are ordinary citizens chosen at random and vetted by the federal district court—cannot share what is happening before the grand jury.

* Federal rules also prevent prosecutors from disclosing what happens before the grand jury.

* [The] rules permit witnesses to disclose what happened, and people who receive grand jury subpoenas are usually not prohibited from disclosing their contents.

* [W]e will likely continue to hear media reports about witnesses and documents sought by Mueller and his team...


* When a witness testifies under oath before the grand jury, no one else is permitted to be present other than the prosecutor and the grand jurors. The witness is not even allowed to have a lawyer present, and the normal rules of evidence that limit questioning in a trial do not apply.

* Alternatively, when witnesses receive a grand jury subpoena, their lawyer often asks the prosecutor to agree to permit the witness to be interviewed by the prosecutor and an FBI agent with the lawyer present. The FBI agent’s presence would make it a crime to lie during the interview—creating the risk of Trump or one of his associates committing a crime through their words—but the lawyer would be present and could assist the witness.

Mueller has already hired 16 prosecutors—some of the most accomplished investigators ever assembled on one team.

These are people with deep skills and experience in prosecuting cases on money laundering, campaign finance violations and foreign bribery, as well as a sophisticated understanding of how to handle sprawling, complex investigations like this one.

If any crimes were committed, they’re likely to find out.

------------------------

How important is it that Mueller has formed a grand jury?

This is the best article I found to explain the importance of impaneling the grand jury. Highlights below!!

How important is it that Mueller has formed a grand jury? I asked 20 legal experts

Jens David Ohlin, law professor, Cornell University

This suggests that Mueller's investigation isn't an investigate-and-file-a-report-with-Congress type of deal — it's an investigate-and-indict effort.

Jed Shugerman, law professor, Fordham University

[N]ow Mueller has impaneled a special grand jury in DC focused on Russia, and that commitment means that
1) Mueller expects this new grand jury to be doing a lot of special work, and
2) it will be reviewing classified material.

A special grand jury devoted to a single investigation is very rare.

Perhaps a clearer signal of Mueller's case is his recent hire of Greg Andres, a former prosecutor specializing in foreign bribery and fraud. Andres would not leave his law firm if he did not expect to be very busy and very central to this case.

Victoria Nourse, law professor, Georgetown University

My personal speculation is that Mueller would not have done this if he did not have significant evidence. Mueller is a class act. I doubt he would risk his reputation, even among a few dozen people, without something that he already knows is potentially very serious.

Julie O’Sullivan, law professor, Georgetown University

One investigates potential white-collar crimes through grand juries. Mueller will call before the grand jury everyone who has had any possible involvement in the alleged collusion and the alleged obstruction, and get them on the record under oath.

They cannot decline to testify unless they take the Fifth [that is, invoke the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution, which says that no person "shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself"], and only then if they have a valid argument that their testimony may incriminate them.

Any decent white-collar lawyer will urge clients to take the Fifth, but a lot of politicians and businesspeople think they cannot do so without unacceptable collateral employment or reputational consequences, and so they testify. If they are smart, they will not lie. (Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby should serve as cautionary examples.)

I hope you found this interesting! :)
 
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I think Trump's biggest risk is himself and his loose attachment to the truth. He's very clearly lied and dodged during depositions in civil cases. This is a criminal investigation, and lying here, in the obvious and easily refutable way he's so good at, will put you in jail. Keep at it and you wind up in prison.

Actually, the choice of lawyers coming on makes my Cowper's gland secrete a bit. Grand juries can be empanelled for just a stupid subpoena sometimes, but in this case it looks like there's a rather meaty piece of international financial shenanigans Mueller plans to present.

IOW, this is not Ken Starr about to parade a cum stain on national TV.
 
Pardon me, Trump's future words to Pence?

Given his paranoia and knowledge of his own guilt (c'mon he fired the guy in charge, it took a while for Nixon to do that, and it's not something an innocent man would do), he's probably already drafted something, and made Pence sign it.
 
I haven't heard about the prosecutor's fallacy! My sister is a prosecutor, and I've pointed out her fallacies numerous times, though.

Prosecutor's fallacy is a statistical fallacy where the wrong probability is compared.

For example, winning the jackpot in the lottery is extremely rare for the average person. Therefore, the fallacious conclusion is that anyone who wins the jackpot must have cheated since the odds of winning are so low.
 
it did post but you deleted it.
If I did it was accidental

i'm sure exactly what you're saying here beyond, yet again, somebody else did something bad too so it's ok.
Don't play dumb you know exactly what I'm trying to say and you did not answer any of the questions I posed to you asking for further clarification.
Does the law apply to everyone? Simple question. What if we were only arresting black people that stole stuff and not whites? Once you decide that the law should only go after and prosecute the people that you disagree with politically then your entire argument is bunk as you have zero integrity or moral compass. This is why the Trump/Russia collusion agenda is absolutely ridiculous. It's like a group of murderers frantically trying to prosecute another group that committed assaults. Where's the fairness and justice?

So I am not saying that collusion with foreign governments is OK in the slightest. I am just saying that it in this case - considering who the accusers are, and when viewing the evidence that we have of them engaging in much worse - it is difficult for me to take the accusations seriously (not to mention that Trump has still yet to have been accused of committing a specific crime).


Liquid, I asked in the other thread, the story you quote, why is Trump upset with the sanctions?
I answered it in the other thread. Will you answer my question in return: why are you pleased with the sanctions, and/or why do you support them?
Also that was not a story - that was an honest and blunt statement from the Russian PM.
 
(You assumed I was pleased) But you're right, I'm pleased with sanctions, along with Congress and much of the West, probably every government in Europe, considering the invasion and seizure of portions of a sovereign nation, attempts to seize more of it, interference in foreign elections, shooting down a passenger airliner, interference in our elections, mainly, and the fuckery they've been pulling on our diplomats there (to the point of killing pets). Trump is bothered by these sanctions though, according to your link. Strange. You'd think he'd have a strong political statement to make publicly, on the case against them, and why we should restore the ease of cashflow between Russian banks and Americans.
 
"I know y'all are very excited about Mueller going after Trump - and who knows, he might very well succeed in getting him impeached imprisoned."

Yes we are, because impeachment isn't Mueller's job, that's congress. No, Bob's gonna lock him up.
 
(You assumed I was pleased) But you're right, I'm pleased with sanctions, along with Congress and much of the West, probably every government in Europe, considering the invasion and seizure of portions of a sovereign nation, attempts to seize more of it, interference in foreign elections, shooting down a passenger airliner, interference in our elections, mainly, and the fuckery they've been pulling on our diplomats there (to the point of killing pets). Trump is bothered by these sanctions though, according to your link. Strange. You'd think he'd have a strong political statement to make publicly, on the case against them, and why we should restore the ease of cashflow between Russian banks and Americans.

No offence, but people like yourself are what's wrong with political discourse in our current environment. I have no words and no inclination to pick apart this load of biased, brainwashed, unresearched, unsubstantiated, Russophobic and ignorant bullshit. You are beyond hope. Good day to you. I hope you'll be smiling when you help usher in a war between two nuclear superpowers.

FYI you are completely off the mark, our allies in the West and EU are vehemently against these sanctions. The only people that were pleased with them are the psychopaths in Congress - and you, my weak-minded comrade have fallen under the spell of the successful political psychopath. I hope you will realize the error of your ways before it's too late.

"I know y'all are very excited about Mueller going after Trump - and who knows, he might very well succeed in getting him impeached imprisoned."
For you to honestly believe that Trump should go to jail, while you simultaneously mock, deflect and ridicule the crimes of Hillary Clinton just shows how downright stupid you are. You've placed political ideology over what is right, decent and just. Shame on you.
 
Mueller is investigating Trump Tower tenants back to 2011, but Hillary Clinton gets $25 million from Saudi Arabia and nobody does a thing!
 
Trump as a president should not have the luxury of having so many holidays spot IMO. From someone who constantly complained about Obama, he's way ahead.
 
he's such a hypocrite. it's beyond cringeworthy.
i don't really believe in custodial sentences for the most part - i think it's barbaric in most cases, but it would be great to see trump get locked up.
it doesn't seem very likely though, to me.
'you can't fight the system' - unless you're incredibly wealthy.
 
i don't think non-violent offenders should be imprisoned, especially not in the way people are in the States.
lots of people have their lives ruined by imprisonment, especially folks with mental health issues that need treatment - and that's really unnecessary and brutal in my opinion.
i'm very much opposed to people being imprisoned for drug offences, for instance.
 
Mueller is investigating Trump Tower tenants back to 2011, but Hillary Clinton gets $25 million from Saudi Arabia and nobody does a thing!

What side of this argument are you on?

Because arguing that investigating Trump is bad, but investigating Hillary is good seems a tad hypocritical.

The $10 million to $25 million the Saudis donated was to the Clinton foundation, a non-profit, from which the Clintons drew no salary. Now I'm open to the idea that any charitable organization that's linked to any politician should be strictly regulated and audited regularly to ensure its following said regulations, but I'm guessing you aren't open to the idea that the Trump Foundation being under the same scrutiny.
 
What side of this argument are you on?

Because arguing that investigating Trump is bad, but investigating Hillary is good seems a tad hypocritical.

The $10 million to $25 million the Saudis donated was to the Clinton foundation, a non-profit, from which the Clintons drew no salary. Now I'm open to the idea that any charitable organization that's linked to any politician should be strictly regulated and audited regularly to ensure its following said regulations, but I'm guessing you aren't open to the idea that the Trump Foundation being under the same scrutiny.

Of course I am. All I do is bang on about implementing justice fairly and evenly.
And LOL @ Saudi Arabia being charitable: an insane, oppressive regime that beheads people for being gay and stones rape victims to death just happened to, out of the goodness of their hearts, donate $25 MILLION and it just happened to be to the Clinton Foundation.....wow.... those loving Saudis are so amazing. Donating to the same foundation that misappropriated BILLIONS of dollars that was meant to go to the earthquake-ravaged Haitians yet somehow disappeared. Haiti saw less 5% of the money that was donated. The Clinton Foundation is a criminal pay-for-play enterprise, even their ex-CEO Eric Braverman blew the whistle on them and told reporters to "follow the money".

Re: Trump investigation. At least be honest that this is a witchhunt and that they are looking for literally anything unlawful that Trump's companies have done in the past (even though according to this thread he has no companies). They tried with the Russia collusion, no evidence found so that didn't stick. So now they're going to dig deeper and see if they can find anything. Maybe he paid a few contractors in cash back in the 90's and we use that to justify his incompetency for the presidency.. *cough*Whitewater... If a special prosecutor was simultaneously hired to dig into Clinton's closet then I would be more open to it. Want to remove corruption? Remove it all.
 
Trump as a president should not have the luxury of having so many holidays spot IMO. From someone who constantly complained about Obama, he's way ahead.

For your information, even now on his 17 day not-vacation vacation, Trump says he is on the phone sometimes, and taking meetings.

When the US president takes a real vacation, they don't check out completely, they take phone calls and have some meetings with staff and other individuals...

So this is obviously different. :)
 
@LiquidMethod
what do you like about trump?

without mentioning clinton or obama or any of the people trump hates - what is good about him?
honest question, because it's hard for me to understand; all i see is a really insecure old bigot. he doesn't have any redeeming features to me, he seems like a conman, a misogynist and a demagogue.
 
(sorry i edited that post to make it clearer who i was addressing)
and i'm assuming the congrats were due to me taking on the administrator role in the last couple of days. ...right, scrofula? :)
 
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