2010-11 NBA Thread

[grimble crumble]

jordan never had a legitimate post presence yet still dominated the L.

we saw kobe w/o a post presence and he was tracy mcgrady.

MJ had no post prescence? not true man. So a guy like dennis rodman who is one of only maybe 7 players to ever average 18 rebounds per game isnt a legit post prescence. whats the saying by pat riley go? "no rebounds no rings" Rodman is known as one of the greatest rebounders of all time on any nba list there is more to post prescence then offence.

he got his numbers through volume, not necessarily efficiency.

not to mention that tracy mcgrady put up similarly superb numbers and was more efficient while doing it.

1. ok lets brake down stats here per minute of actual playing time. points per minute is a great way to determine an offensive force. MJ is at .78 points per minute it is #1 among all players who have ever averaged over 20ppg for their careers. Kobe scores .70 per minute if he were to retire today. now that looks like less but if we were to divide shots per minute of playing time. Mj threw up .59 per minute for his career while kobe only chucks up .52 you call kobe a volume guy? in actuality Jordan shot the ball more frequently than kobe does.

im not faulting jordan at all. he is the goat for a reason but saying that kobe isnt in the top 10 or close to jordan in skill is insane. kobe's Points per minute for his career beat out people such as Clyde drexler, oscar robertson, larry bird, Dr. J, Wilt chamberlin, kareem, elgin baylor, jerry west, durant and leborn just to name a few

he also is leading the current nba season in pointer per 48 minutes of playing time by leaps and bounds.

2. T-macs greatest season was 32 points per game off 45% was the highpoint of his subpar career. kobes 35 points per game off of 45% shooting is actually considered a low time in his 5 ringed career. t-mac was a star but really shouldnt be mentioned when were talking about the real greats listed on this and the last page.

in 04-05 he chucked it up 20 times a game to get his 27.6 points (1.38 points per shot), shooting 43%. his player efficiency rating (PER) was 23.3.

in 05-06 he needed 27.2 shots to get 35.4 points (1.31 points per shot), shooting 45 percent. his PER was 28.0.

in 06-07 he burned through 22.8 shots to get 31.6 points (1.38 points per shot), shooting 46.3 percent. he picked up 5.4 assists but turned it over 3.4 times a game, leading to a 26.1 PER.

these were the seasons the lakers orginazation went through a rebuilding peroid and bryant was literally the only quality player which ment he HAD to take more shots and defenders could pay less attention to everyone else on the floor. trust me go take a look at they guys kobe dragged to the playoffs. dont think smush parker is doing so hot now.

about 75-80% of kobe bryant's shots are jumpers. (source: 82games.com). jump-shots (specifically those from 18-24 feet) are the lowest-percentage shot in the game. your productivity comes from both 3-pointers and the paint, as getting in the paint leads to a higher percentage from the field, free throws, and assists.

james' jumper isn't his strong suit, but it doesn't matter because he gets into the paint at will, and is the best finisher in the L inside the paint. getting into the paint collapses the defense, geting you fouls, easy dunks, and assists that lead to easy dunks. (not to mention offensive rebound opportunities

Kobe shoots more jump shots because hes a great jump shooter just like how dwight howard blocks more shots because hes a great shot blocker... if your trying to say this means kobe has no post game your wrong my friend I believe Kobe led the leage in points in the post for about half of last season beating out guys like howard and lebron.

there is a difference between points in the paint and points in the post. lebron gets many of his points in the pain during transition or cuts from the perimeter which shows that he cant get to the pain at will, if he could he would have a post game. his actual post play (back to the basket in post) is horrible.

 

[KamMoye]

MJ had no post prescence? not true man. So a guy like dennis rodman who is one of only maybe 7 players to ever average 18 rebounds per game isnt a legit post prescence. whats the saying by pat riley go? "no rebounds no rings" Rodman is known as one of the greatest rebounders of all time on any nba list there is more to post prescence then offence.

Rodman was on the Bulls for three seasons. He also wasn't averaging 18 rebounds a game for the Bulls as you may have implied.

1. ok lets brake down stats here per minute of actual playing time. points per minute is a great way to determine an offensive force.

Not necessarily. You're further rewarding inefficiency, as the more you shoot the more likely you are to score.

This is why stats like True Shooting percentage and eFG% exist. They take FTs and 3-pointers into account.

you call kobe a volume guy? in actuality Jordan shot the ball more frequently than kobe does.

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

The difference is Jordan's TS% and eFG and, yes, even PER (which already inherently rewards those who shoot the most) were always much, much higher than Kobe's.

im not faulting jordan at all. he is the goat for a reason but saying that kobe isnt in the top 10 or close to jordan in skill is insane.

How do you value a basketball player?

So far all you're really talking about is the raw ability to score.

Sure, Kobe is one of the top 10 scorers of all-time in terms of ability to score. I'll give you that. Then again, so is Allen Iverson.

kobe's Points per minute for his career beat out people such as Clyde drexler, oscar robertson, larry bird, Dr. J, Wilt chamberlin, kareem, elgin baylor, jerry west, durant and leborn just to name a few

As I'm sure do his shots per minute.

he also is leading the current nba season in pointer per 48 minutes of playing time by leaps and bounds.

It would be disappointing to shoot the most and not score the most. He's averaging more than three shots more per game than anyone else.

2. T-macs greatest season was 32 points per game off 45% was the highpoint of his subpar career.

McGrady shot 38.6 percent from beyond the arc that season, however, on a whopping 6.0 attempts per game. As a result his PER was over 30, his TS% was 56.4% and his eFG was 50.5%, all of which top Kobe's marks in 04-05.

Like Kobe, T-Mac carried a terrible team into the playoffs -- the Magic's 2nd best scorer that year was Mike Miller, who was traded after just 39 games. And, like Kobe, the Magic were knocked out in the first round, losing a Game 7.

Unlike Kobe, however, T-Mac didn't quit on his team in the second half of the game.

trust me go take a look at they guys kobe dragged to the playoffs. dont think smush parker is doing so hot now.

How was T-Mac's situation any different? Pat Garrity finished second on the team in minutes played!

Kobe shoots more jump shots because hes a great jump shooter just like how dwight howard blocks more shots because hes a great shot blocker...

He's such a great jump shooter that he's only once shot better than 36.1 percent from beyond the arc?

there is a difference between points in the paint and points in the post. lebron gets many of his points in the pain during transition or cuts from the perimeter which shows that he cant get to the pain at will, if he could he would have a post game. his actual post play (back to the basket in post) is horrible.

What is your fixation with having a post game?

What is the point of offense? To maximize points per possession. LeBron James leads to more points on a possession basis than Kobe Bryant, and it's not remotely close. It's as simple as that.

 

[grimble crumble]

Rodman was on the Bulls for three seasons. He also wasn't averaging 18 rebounds a game for the Bulls as you may have implied.

The point is rodman is a great rebounding talent and that is part of having a legit post prescence. saying jordan never had a big man is not really true considering during rodmans time with the bulls he averaged 15.3 rebounds per game over those 3 years which is higher than any single season in Dwight Howards career, rodman even rebounded 16.1 per game during one season with the bulls.

Not necessarily. You're further rewarding inefficiency, as the more you shoot the more likely you are to score.

This is why stats like True Shooting percentage and eFG% exist. They take FTs and 3-pointers into account.

the stat doesnt reward ineffinciency considering it shows that kobe scored nearly as much per minute as jordan while taking less shots per minute.

The difference is Jordan's TS% and eFG and, yes, even PER (which already inherently rewards those who shoot the most) were always much, much higher than Kobe's.

not true. Jordans career true shooting percentage is .5686 Kobe's is .5564. what is your obsession with true shooting percentage? if this were an indicator of greatness charles barkley and reggie miller would be ringed out gods. Both post true shooting percentages much higher than jordan (.6120 and .6139

How do you value a basketball player?

So far all you're really talking about is the raw ability to score.

if the value of a basketball player was easily expressed we wouldnt be having this debate. I think its somewhere in scoring ability (on all facets of offence) defensive ability, killer instincts, drive determination and rings. all of which kobe and micheal have comparible levels of.

As I'm sure do his shots per minute.

if this is your logic than your demeaning jordans accomplishment because he posts more shots per minute than kobe.

It would be disappointing to shoot the most and not score the most. He's averaging more than three shots more per game than anyone else. [

and jordan would be averaging more.

How was T-Mac's situation any different? Pat Garrity finished second on the team in minutes played!

in that 04/05 year without bryants prescence on the floor the lakers scored a whoping 22 points less per 100 posessions. this is higher than any other offensive player durring that time including yes T-mac

honestly T-mac shouldnt be in this conversation man. the original start of this debate is that bryant is one of the greatest of all time not better than jordan as you seem to think I said. dragging underachieving talents like t-mac into this isnt needed.

He's such a great jump shooter that he's only once shot better than 36.1 percent from beyond the arc?

lol since when are 3's jump shots. jump shots are mid range man. and if you want to bring 3's into this jordans career 3pt % is 32, Lebron has never shot higher than 34% from three in a single season and has a career average of 32, kobes is 33 more than MJ's and LBJ's. Kobe also holds the record for most 3's made in a game. but who cares this isnt about 3's it was about jump shots, and no one has ever had a turn around jumper like kobe.

What is your fixation with having a post game?

What is the point of offense? To maximize points per possession. LeBron James leads to more points on a possession basis than Kobe Bryant, and it's not remotely close. It's as simple as that.

my fixation with having a post game is that the best player in the leage wouldbe able to score in any way, including the post if his team needed it from him.

and the point of offense is to score more than the other team. kobe does this and has 5 banners in the rafters because of it. in fact if I do recal he once scored more than an entire mavericks team through 3 quarters of play which is the only time in the shot clock era that has occured, and that mavs team went to the nba finals that year to.

It really seems like your trying to defend jordans posistion as GOAT when I never challeneged it. all I said was kobe is in the league of the greatest players of all time, and he is

and lebrons not.

 

[KamMoye]

edit: yeah this isnt going anywhere. ur right kobe is da GOAT!

 

[grimble crumble]

edit: yeah this isnt going anywhere. ur right kobe is da GOAT!

If you go back my post on the bottom of the 7th page you would see that I never said kobe was better that jordan, just that he belonged in the club, and he does. get over it

 

[axl blaze]

this NBA thread is, once again, getting spammed with LBJ VS Kobe scuttlebutt. can one of you compassionate canvassers please bump that thread, if that is all you will be talking about?

 

[34-dihydroxyphen]

I've been watching the Bulls-Lakers game tonight. The Bulls have been a disappointment for most of this season, but they look like they are coming on tonight. At least until Kobe Bryant wakes up and scores 20 in a quarter.

But goddamn Rose looks good. I wish the Heat got him in that draft instead of Beasly, we would still have him to go along with Wade, LeBron, and Bosh. Imagine that shit.

 

[undead]

But goddamn Rose looks good. I wish the Heat got him in that draft instead of Beasly, we would still have him to go along with Wade, LeBron, and Bosh. Imagine that shit.

I get that the three right now are taking pay cuts to make this work, but at what point wouldn't it? I mean... Rose, Wade, James, Bosh, etc. there's gotta be a point where you can't load up any more, right?

 

[34-dihydroxyphen]

I get that the three right now are taking pay cuts to make this work, but at what point wouldn't it? I mean... Rose, Wade, James, Bosh, etc. there's gotta be a point where you can't load up any more, right?

Rose still makes that Rookie contract money. If he Miami got the first pick or Chicago passed on him in that draft, Miami would still have him for this year and next, before he cashes in big time.

 

[undead]

Gotchya. Wasn't sure how the NBA worked in that regard. Same as the NHL then for the most part.

 

[undead]

Lebron is playing out of his damn mind right now. Three 3 pointers in a row. Just killin it on all cylinders right now. Booooooooooooooooooo.

 

[axl blaze]

keep in mind that he's been playing some WEAK competition, and all the teams that are above-average have a star or two out (ATL had Joe Johnson out, that one dude was out today)

 

[34-dihydroxyphen]

keep in mind that he's been playing some WEAK competition, and all the teams that are above-average have a star or two out (ATL had Joe Johnson out, that one dude was out today)

Who was out against Utah?

Still, the Heat is doing what they are supposed to do against weak competition. They are destroying them. And keep in mind that the Heat's 4th and 5th best players are out as well.

 

[Serious]

Lol @ KamMoye, what a fucking troll.



edit: How is 46% shooting for a PRIMARILY jump shooting wing man a terrible FG%?
Jordan's game was primarily attacking the rim.
So considering Kobe never had the athleticism and physical tools like Jordan did to get to the rim at will... that's actually great percentage.

Gtfo.

 

[Serious]

But goddamn Rose looks good. I wish the Heat got him in that draft instead of Beasly, we would still have him to go along with Wade, LeBron, and Bosh. Imagine that shit.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Rose needs the ball in his hands to be effective, just like Wade and LeBron do. So you would have THREE guys that need the ball to dominate. No way that would work, their offense would be even worse than it is right now. Have you ever played in a pickup game? You'd know what I'm talking about.

Why do you think Rose never recruited Wade or LeBron to the Bulls?

 

[Serious]

Seriously, having 3 guys who are primarily slashers and have the SAME style of play on THE SAME TEAM.

What the fuck?

 

[axl blaze]

lets not get too brash here, Serious. I know things get heated up when we discuss our teams and favorite/hated players on here, but we must keep it (at least a little bit) civil

and can you do me a favor? instead of posting three times in a row, one post minutes after the other, can you begin to utilize the Edit function, and then add on your new thoughts to the thoughts you just posted moments before?

I just don't want this thread to reach capacity before the end of the NBA season, is all

 

[seep]

Kings' television personality Bill Walton to Erik Spoelstra before last night's game:

If the Lakers don’t turn things around quickly, do you expect a coaching change?

:D

 

[34-dihydroxyphen]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Rose needs the ball in his hands to be effective, just like Wade and LeBron do. So you would have THREE guys that need the ball to dominate. No way that would work, their offense would be even worse than it is right now. Have you ever played in a pickup game? You'd know what I'm talking about.

Why do you think Rose never recruited Wade or LeBron to the Bulls?

Are you actually mad at me for stating something that could have actually happened?

Are you asserting that a team full of All-Stars cannot win in the NBA?

The Miami experiment is finally beginning to work out, and the Lakers are the team in trouble now. It is an lol moment.

 

[johanneschimpo]

And keep in mind that the Heat's 4th and 5th best players are out as well.

Yeah, and Sasha Vujacic has a stubbed toe.