Bupe 100mg oxy/day to 16mg bupe/day too much bupe?

[milagro]

I have read the mega threads and I noticed a common theme. A little bupe goes a long way. I only ask this question because my doc is indifferent and doesn't understand the severity of the headache I still have on the third day of "transfer/induction and I have only taken 1/2 the prescribed dose.

This is not PWD. I didn't get ill until 6 hours after taking 8 mg of bupe and that was 20 hours post dose of oxy. The headache and subsequent vomiting sent me to the ER where I was treated and streeted with imitrix and phenergan. The headache subsided after IV of both but came back in a fury after 5 hours. I took 100mg of imitrix and the headache finally stopped at 1am this morning. That is just over 30 hours of a headache that I would have almost traded the WD from oxy for.

I decided to stop the oxy because I was becoming a dog chasing its tail. Taking it to keep from becoming ill when there was no severe pain. I am a cpp and have been for almost 7 years and I swear, the amount of pain I have been exposed to with medication, epidurals, spinal headaches, discography, etc. is nearly as bad as the pain that the meds alleviated.

I read about headaches being the no. 1 side effect but they are referred to as general headaches that can be treated with OTC meds. This is not the first time I have switched to bupe but I never had such protracted anguish.

I stopped taking the bupe for about 24hrs. It is Thursday night and I began the bupe on Tuesday afternoon. I took another 4mg because the WD's were beginning and another damn headache just started about an hour ago. I took some more imitrix and can only hope this will somehow even out to where I can function normally as I remember when I used bupe for pain before. I stopped because it was giving me horrible sweats and didn't treat the pain adequately.

I cannot speak to my doctor until next week and he feels I am just enduring a combination of oxy WD and introducing a new med into my system but I have read so many threads that never mention the severe and protacted headache that may or may not be the result of the bupe induction. Should I be taking less? I have taken 20mg over the past 58 hours. Too much? I am sure the answer is in one of the mega threads but I am taking this brief time before the headache worsens, and it already has, to write this question.

 

[Hobble]

When I started bupe maintainance I used to get headaches alot but after about 3 weeks they went away.

 

[T. Calderone]

When was your last dose? You have the right idea using 4 mg instead of 8.

 

[uno22]

Two suggestions: first, see if you can switch to subutex. Some people get headaches from the naloxone. Second, try taking less. I've kicked >200mg oxy/day with like 1-2mg sub per day and then I jumped off everything on day five and only had some lower leg pain. But everyone's different.

 

[tricomb]

Oh my god your way overprescribed in terms of bupre.... Seriously dude try to see if sub-2mg doses will hold you, that way it will act as a full agonist just like oxycodone instead of antagonizing itself in the high-dose 16mg range where doctors are just doping you up insanely so that your tolerance makes it hard for you to get high off your DOC, and oxycodone is not a very powerful opioid albeit definitely a potent one, I'm not arguing that, but you definitely could be off much worse than a mere 100mg oxy habit. If I were you, I would try taking 0.5mg every hour until I felt comfortable, and not exceeding 2mg.

People try to force effects out of buprenorphine that it simply does not or cannot possess when taken via brute force high-dosing, it does not make the drug better, it makes it less enjoyable, produces a lot more side effects like severe constipation and opioid dependency, and jacks up your tolerance to the point where you need near-Overdose doses of your DOC to break through your ridiculously high suboxone dose.

I would definitely advise you get off suboxone and deinitely make the switch to generic buprenorphine tablets that do not contain naloxone and have been in production since the 1980s far predating the brand name Suboxone and it's bullshit. It's just a prescription that's written as "generic buprenorphine hcl 2 or 8mg tabs" you can ever ask your doctor to put a note that says "NOT SUBOXONE" or "do not substitute" on it. I would highly recommend using a non-suboxone form of buprenorphine for your maintenance. Hell, even Butrans may be a better alternative for you?

 

[itsALLfake]

I'm jumping on the assumption train that you're on Suboxone as opposed to purely Buprenorphine with everyone else. I had horrible side-effects from Naloxone. Migraines were the least of my worries with it. Don't let your doctor tell you that Naloxone prevents you from abusing other drugs. That's not even the purpose of it being in Suboxone. That is to prevent direct intravenous use, and the ratio of Buprenorphine to Naloxone doesn't even allow that 'true purpose' to be fulfilled.

I tried doing this, but maybe you can exhibit self-control..cuz regardless that I knew that doing more wouldn't do anything, it was like I would just do more insane amounts to feel it in my nose more..I don't know. I'm an addict. That's a better answer. If I could control myself and if I were you, I'd get to the lowest comfortable amount you can take, and just keep the rest. Opioid addicts relapse like it's going out of style, so having something held back for that is better than being sick. Unless, you turn out to like Buprenorphine more than oxycodone. Then, I'm sorry for giving you that advise, cuz I was in that boat for about 4 years.

I also agree with tricomb. 100mg of oxycodone a day, it may be wiser to taper with that or something else, rather than getting on a far more powerful opioid for maintenance or tapering.

He may also not like to hear about you taking your prescription the way you see fit.. If you don't have a MD, you don't know shit. I had a hard time playing that card with doctors, and they hated me.

Good luck to you

 

[tramadol_head1000]

Oh my god your way overprescribed in terms of bupre.... Seriously dude try to see if sub-2mg doses will hold you, that way it will act as a full agonist just like oxycodone instead of antagonizing itself in the high-dose 16mg range where doctors are just doping you up insanely so that your tolerance makes it hard for you to get high off your DOC, and oxycodone is not a very powerful opioid albeit definitely a potent one, I'm not arguing that, but you definitely could be off much worse than a mere 100mg oxy habit. If I were you, I would try taking 0.5mg every hour until I felt comfortable, and not exceeding 2mg.

People try to force effects out of buprenorphine that it simply does not or cannot possess when taken via brute force high-dosing, it does not make the drug better, it makes it less enjoyable, produces a lot more side effects like severe constipation and opioid dependency, and jacks up your tolerance to the point where you need near-Overdose doses of your DOC to break through your ridiculously high suboxone dose.

I would definitely advise you get off suboxone and deinitely make the switch to generic buprenorphine tablets that do not contain naloxone and have been in production since the 1980s far predating the brand name Suboxone and it's bullshit. It's just a prescription that's written as "generic buprenorphine hcl 2 or 8mg tabs" you can ever ask your doctor to put a note that says "NOT SUBOXONE" or "do not substitute" on it. I would highly recommend using a non-suboxone form of buprenorphine for your maintenance. Hell, even Butrans may be a better alternative for you?

Wow that's way to high of a dose buprenorphine is many times stronger than morphine. You might want to ask for a decrease im dosage unless you have a high tolerance. Suboxome is only useful for IV users since it keeps them from shooting up due to the Naloxone. Ask for subtex since naloxone raises blood pressure and causes headaches. I don't know how many of you here know this but the much hated naloxone is actually one molecule away from oxymorphone only difference is it has an alkyl group instead of a N-Methyl group. The full name is N-AllylOXYmorpONE they call it naloxone so the poor soul doesn't see someone with it and steal it thinking its something good. I shudder just thinking about making that mistake.

 

[Phat5o]

man i got horrible headaches from suboxone as well.... then they put me on subutex, they said it might be the naloxone causing it. still got the headaches on subutex as well, they weren't as strong but they were still there. they weren't as strong as OP's but they were definitely bad. anyway, i was never able to really kill them off even with lower doses, they just got lighter to the point they weren't painful anymore, just very irratating. they started me on a super high dose as well, 24mg, coming off only a 100 - 140 mg oxy habit at the time. of course i had no idea this was a high side and thought the drug was supposed to be taken in large doses. i was on 32 mg a day for 2 - 3 years basically with the occasional couple weeks long oxy binges here and there. i always thought those bupe docs were kinda crooked lol, i remember i told him that i had to get my wisdom teeth taken out and needed to take painkillers, so he'd prescribe me 1 - 2 10mg percocet every 4 - 6 hours to come off the subutex and give me pain relief for the days after the procedure..... of course i made it all up and there was never a procedure. he also asked me to stop taking the klonopin from my primary care doc and ended up prescribing me the same amount... i have no idea why.... either way that doubled the amount of klonopin i was getting then.
sorry for the little rant, just reading thru this thread it kinda came to me how outright terrible some bupe docs are, especially for the people that want to STOP and not trade addictions.
i also wanted to mention, even though i was on 32mg for most of the time, it didn't jack up my tolerance to other opiates at all. i would just have to take 3 days to get the bupe off my receptors and everything was back to normal.

back to the og topic though, seems like your getting some brutal headaches from the stuff, sorry to hear that. i think they will eventually go away or become a lot less severe

 

[tramadol_head1000]

Yeah Bupenorphine Physicians kind of have a racket going since only board approved Docs can prescribe it. Your bupe doctor wants to manage your k-pins because their addicting and have abuse potential. Generally an addiction results in all abusable substances being managed tightly you have to go by your doctors rules or no more bupe or klonopin. I'm really surprised he gave you narcotics knowing your trying to get clean. Hell I lied to the ER doctor once to try any get tramadol and told him I had a.problem with vicodin before he refused to give me anything better than ibuprofen 800. That's how much of a prick he was. Probably saw right through me though
Oh and before I forget don't get your k-pins from your family doctor no more or else your bupe doc will cut you off.

 

[milagro]

Thanks for all the support. Sorry about not being specific about the form of bupe but it is SUBUTEX. This is something that he will probably want me to stay on indefinitely. Partly at my request. I loved oxy for its efficacy and sedation at night but my tolerance was getting out of control after being at the same dose for 2 years and he would not increase it. I was tired of the WD fear, losing/mislacing, taking too many, or having them stolen so I asked for the switch.

I have used it before and was a little sick for a few hours but fine by the next day. Not this time. I have taken the advice of many of you and I am taking the 8mg tabs and quartering them. So far, this morning I am headache free and feel better. I was afraid to take it at all.

Yeah 16mg/day seems far too high in researching it more now that I am semi-with it. Thanks again for the input BL.

 

[tramadol_head1000]

Thanks for all the support. Sorry about not being specific about the form of bupe but it is SUBUTEX. This is something that he will probably want me to stay on indefinitely. Partly at my request. I loved oxy for its efficacy and sedation at night but my tolerance was getting out of control after being at the same dose for 2 years and he would not increase it. I was tired of the WD fear, losing/mislacing, taking too many, or having them stolen so I asked for the switch.

I have used it before and was a little sick for a few hours but fine by the next day. Not this time. I have taken the advice of many of you and I am taking the 8mg tabs and quartering them. So far, this morning I am headache free and feel better. I was afraid to take it at all.

Yeah 16mg/day seems far too high in researching it more now that I am semi-with it. Thanks again for the input BL.

Im glad you made it this far and doing well to beat your addiction. I how ever am im a pretty bad spot addiction wise im hooked on tramadol and have no insurance so I can't even afford bupehnorphone let alone convince a sub doctor to write me bupe for a tramadol addiction.no doctors will prescribe methadone either for tramadol when were kicking its OTC meds and alcohol

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

Thanks for all the support. Sorry about not being specific about the form of bupe but it is SUBUTEX. This is something that he will probably want me to stay on indefinitely. Partly at my request. I loved oxy for its efficacy and sedation at night but my tolerance was getting out of control after being at the same dose for 2 years and he would not increase it. I was tired of the WD fear, losing/mislacing, taking too many, or having them stolen so I asked for the switch.

I have used it before and was a little sick for a few hours but fine by the next day. Not this time. I have taken the advice of many of you and I am taking the 8mg tabs and quartering them. So far, this morning I am headache free and feel better. I was afraid to take it at all.

Yeah 16mg/day seems far too high in researching it more now that I am semi-with it. Thanks again for the input BL.

Maybe you need to look for a bit more compassionate doctor?

If you're on analgesics for legitimate purposes, and your problem is a background fear of withdrawal, it seems NUTS to give you 16mg. I mean, getting the 8's when all you need are 2 might be able to save you money by cutting them into 4 approximate pieces. I've never experienced withdrawal from buprenorphine, but having felt them from higher doses of oxy than that, and from what I understand, 16mg would be way more intense to come off of, and the withdrawals last way longer.

Have you considered a fast taper with oxy to get your tolerance down to 80mg or so so you could spend a year increasing it by 2.5mg a month or something? If the bupe is not being an effective analgesic you have other options. I mean, even methadone at like 20mg a day would probably provide better analgesia than bupe as it is a full agonist. But 16 is crazy, your doctor must just be guessing, because the chart I just looked at puts 16mg of buprenorphine as equianalgesic to 640mg of morphine orally!

Im glad you made it this far and doing well to beat your addiction. I how ever am im a pretty bad spot addiction wise im hooked on tramadol and have no insurance so I can't even afford bupehnorphone let alone convince a sub doctor to write me bupe for a tramadol addiction.no doctors will prescribe methadone either for tramadol when were kicking its OTC meds and alcohol

You should probably post your own thread, but if you go into a methadone clinic in full withdrawals they should help you. If they require a positive drug test maybe you can borrow one 5mg hydrocodone from someone? Tramadol was the first drug I ever experienced withdrawal from after 4 days of somewhat high dose use, it was particularly awful because of the serotonin/NE involvement, now it only lasted one day , but I can see how it could last a very long time with longer dosing periods.

 

[tramadol_head1000]

Trying go to far off topic but I've been trying for 8 years two and a half years ago I beat it cold turkey just be an idiot and start up after I felt better.

 

[Phat5o]

Yeah Bupenorphine Physicians kind of have a racket going since only board approved Docs can prescribe it. Your bupe doctor wants to manage your k-pins because their addicting and have abuse potential. Generally an addiction results in all abusable substances being managed tightly you have to go by your doctors rules or no more bupe or klonopin. I'm really surprised he gave you narcotics knowing your trying to get clean. Hell I lied to the ER doctor once to try any get tramadol and told him I had a.problem with vicodin before he refused to give me anything better than ibuprofen 800. That's how much of a prick he was. Probably saw right through me though
Oh and before I forget don't get your k-pins from your family doctor no more or else your bupe doc will cut you off.

my doc was actually a real nice guy, he himself was a recovering opiate addict and alcoholic lol. he mighta been too nice. i failed every drug test with him and he never even once mentioned anything about cutting me off. one day he dissappeared. i got a weird letter in the mail saying he had to leave for personal/family reasons.. i always had a feeling he mighta relapsed himself.
and all this goes back to like 2009, i havent been on bupe since.

kinda weird the er doc didn't want to give you tramadol. for some reason every doc i saw in the states seemed to believe it's not addicting lol

 

[BupeMan14]

Wow that's way to high of a dose buprenorphine is many times stronger than morphine. You might want to ask for a decrease im dosage unless you have a high tolerance. Suboxome is only useful for IV users since it keeps them from shooting up due to the Naloxone. Ask for subtex since naloxone raises blood pressure and causes headaches. I don't know how many of you here know this but the much hated naloxone is actually one molecule away from oxymorphone only difference is it has an alkyl group instead of a N-Methyl group. The full name is N-AllylOXYmorpONE they call it naloxone so the poor soul doesn't see someone with it and steal it thinking its something good. I shudder just thinking about making that mistake.

Uhm actually the naloxone in bupe does absolutely nothing. Bupe has q higher affinity for the receptors and out competes naloxonr everytime, even when IV'D. I would know, I shoot my bupe everyday and have never once had an issue. And search around or ask any other expierenced suboxone user and they'll tell you the same exact thing.

 

[tramadol_head1000]

my doc was actually a real nice guy, he himself was a recovering opiate addict and alcoholic lol. he mighta been too nice. i failed every drug test with him and he never even once mentioned anything about cutting me off.
i'm not on bupe anymore, actually haven't been since 2009 or so.

sometimes doctors will surprise you. I had a crazy experience at the ER one time trying to get tramadol as I was in full withdrawals I got the same doctor 3 times in a row as i went two other times within like 2 weeks. I was thinking there's no way he's going to give me another script. So i called an audible and decided to try for benzos and admit i was addicted and was in WDs. The most fucking and sorry for cussing as i rarely cuss but it's justified because you know what he said word for word: "I don't think is possible for you to be in withdrawals and its impossible to be addicted to tramadol i can write you for another script. I almost fell over so i left the hospital dumbfounded confused then reality hits again i ran straight out of the parking lot so fast. Man i still think of that rare time something goes the addicts way. And this was young doctor barely out of residency and the year was 2010 go figure

 

[milagro]

Maybe you need to look for a bit more compassionate doctor?

If you're on analgesics for legitimate purposes, and your problem is a background fear of withdrawal, it seems NUTS to give you 16mg. I mean, getting the 8's when all you need are 2 might be able to save you money by cutting them into 4 approximate pieces. I've never experienced withdrawal from buprenorphine, but having felt them from higher doses of oxy than that, and from what I understand, 16mg would be way more intense to come off of, and the withdrawals last way longer.

Have you considered a fast taper with oxy to get your tolerance down to 80mg or so so you could spend a year increasing it by 2.5mg a month or something? If the bupe is not being an effective analgesic you have other options. I mean, even methadone at like 20mg a day would probably provide better analgesia than bupe as it is a full agonist. But 16 is crazy, your doctor must just be guessing, because the chart I just looked at puts 16mg of buprenorphine as equianalgesic to 640mg of morphine orally!

I was going to allow this thread to close but I am feeling almost completely "normal" at the moment and felt I should explain what my intentions are.

I have been at ~100mg/day of a combo of oxy ir and er for a couple of years and have taken breaks, gone CT to get my tolerance down. It worked but even after a 4 week break, my tolerance shot back up by the third day of taking the oxy. Additionally, the 4 weeks were hell on earth. The acute WD was pretty awful but only lasted a few days.

I thought I had beaten it on my own and would be fine. I do not know if they were PAWd's or not but I had such malaise and loss of energy that it became an enormous task to just take showers, walk to the store, do laundry. I lost interest in everything and then the pain came roaring back during the 4th week. Nsaid therapy, and non-narcotic prescriptions had eaten away my GI system and I am highly susceptible to convulsive vomiting, vomiting blood if it isn't stopped and I wasn't getting effective analgesia to boot. Guess what? Back to the opioids went.

Prior to PM years ago and after 3 years of toughing it out on my own and then coming close to losing my job, I was sent to Pain Management and they put me on opioids immediately. That was close to 8 years ago and I have been on them since that time. I began to look at the pain spreadsheet I created and noticed trends that indicated I was headed for a severe dependency issue. I had been on subutex previously and remembered that the induction was not pleasant but once it evened out I was less foggy, did not have to dose nearly as often, and that is what I wanted to begin while starting a new position I have just taken. The only problems I had with it were less analgesia and acute flop sweats.

I have disability SSD but anyone on it knows that in today's world, it does not give anywhere near the financial benefit to live on unless you have no bills, no car, and little rent. I couldn't afford to start this job and have the threat of WD because of the impending need to take even more oxy and caught between a tolerance issue and a doctor that would not raise my dose. I hope I am preaching to the choir here.

Perhaps I do need a new doctor but with all the anti-opioid hype and the costant controls where I live that are now two fold because of the pharmacy laws in addition to the prescribers constantly being hounded by the feds and now the state, I doubt I would find a doctor that took medicare and was more generous in prescribing opies.

It is a shame that so many controls exist but it seems to be the way of our society. Reading tramadol's entry, I felt terrible and can relate to not being able to get put on meds to get you off the shit you know you need off of. I had to get physician's prior authorization before my copay became reasonable for subutex. I don't think I am crossing the line about price discussion. I am trying to be as non-specific as possible.

That is the back story in a peanut shell. Again, I thank those that understood I was being prescribed too much. It took a couple of days but I seem stable between 2-4mg/day now. I just hope it continues to even out and maybe I can get off of everything and just use prn and get trigger point injections when needed.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

People in chronic pain should not have to make such choices. From what I understand though, even with the US's increasing paranoia about opioids there are plenty of first world countries where you need to be terminal before you get anything!

I still find it a bit scary that a doctor thinks that pushing 100mg on oxycodone is "too much" so they hand you 16mg of buprenorphine. I doubt 100mg of oxycodone would even stop withdrawals of someone who had been on 16mg of buprenorphine daily....

Well my friend, I hope you can get to a good pain-free place. Here is hoping the new pain drugs which modulate endorphins to control pain but lack the downsides of euphoria/addiction are all they are cracked up to be - and easy to make and cheap. Though somehow I doubt the latter.

 

[emjay]

It sounds extremely counterintuitive but opioids can cause headaches themselves, a result of vasodilation. Try taking some pseudoephedrine with your dose and see if that helps any.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

It sounds extremely counterintuitive but opioid can cause headaches themselves, a result of vasodilation. Try taking some pseudoephedrine with your dose and see if that helps any.

Is this experienced as a sudden onset which seems to increase in intensity with activity, sitting still it settles down and anything which increase your heart rate makes it throb? If so, I get that often! I've always taken NSAID/Tylenol which seems to help most of the time. but now that I think of it I've never experienced it on stimulants....