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⫸Trans and LGBTQIA+ Discussion⫷

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Snafu in the Void said:
It's political. Get conservatives to think the left are a bunch crazy weird people, weaponize fundamental Christianity, and they will do everything in their power to elect Republican leaders.

That's what all the scare stories about teachers turning their kids gay are. It's all just political maneuvering.
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I have not read the entire thread because the first reply nailed it. Trans rights is a wedge issue, just like gay marriage was. If the right wing media can successfully make this something that people are very scared and angry about they can get enough working class people to vote against their own material interests and elect right wing politicians.

"They think men can be women and women can be men, they want to trans your children, do you want your daughter in a bathroom with a man? this is just the start - what they really want is to legalise paedophilia... what's next, a man can marry a dog? stop them now before it's too late. Vote -insert party name here-"

It won't work on most people of course, but if they can get that 5-15% of low income people to vote for a party that's going to legislate away the rights of their union, cut taxes for the rich and corporations and have them paying for healthcare etc that's enough. The Republican Party in American pioneered the culture war strategy and now it's run worldwide, it works and there will always be a new issue to centre it around.
 
The problem is, they don’t want equal treatment. They want to be protected and have special treatment. If you’re gay youre gay. That’s your business. But don’t shove it in my face and don’t make laws for them that protect them that other citizens have. I always said this about anybody who say they want “acceptance”, we will be more than happy to give you equal rights and freedom of choice. But don’t ask for special treatment. It’s annoying and shoved in our face and being added teachers are influencing kindergarteners. It’s over done for christs sake
 
I don’t go around flaunting that I’m a drug addict and abuser of drugs. People will look at me like it’s a choice when obviously it’s a disease according to doctors. But I don’t ask for oxy to be available to me anytime I want it. And we drug addict get the opposite of acceptance. We get shamed.
 
It's extremely rare to encounter actual homophobia in Melbourne. Guys in certain environments (at the pub, at the footy) will say poofta or whatever but that's not actually meant to hurt anyone. They just say that cause they're insecure and they want to "fit in". When it comes down to it, the vast majority of blokey men don't have any issue with what people do in their bedroom. I don't think I've ever met anyone that doesn't think gay people should be allowed to have sex with each other. The issue - I think - is: everyone is supposed to like it.

Personally, I don't care if an 80 year old woman doesn't approve of homosexuality. I also don't care if she approves of me smoking weed or watching South Park. She's 80. Who fucking cares?

Lovecraft said:
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone has a problem with the fact that there are people who don't feel aligned with the gender that is associated with their biological sex and happens to feel better about being alive if they live as another gender. Even if they feel the need to go all the way with it surgically. Why does it matter to anyone?
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The trans thing is the same but also different. I don't care if people want to say they're a woman when they were born a man. I'll even use their preferred pronouns, within reason. I don't care if they get surgery either, on an individual basis. I am - however - concerned about lying to people in order to not hurt their feelings. I'm conflicted about it. If a trans woman asks me if I think they're a woman, I will say no. I'm not going to be pressured into lying to people "for their own good" because I don't believe it does them any good. On the contrary, it harms them in the long run IMO. I apply this rule fundamentally. Truth is important to me.

The other thing I hear is that kids are somehow being indoctrinated to become trans by the media and teachers, which I think is absolute nonsense and can't happen
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It is extremely dangerous to say this can't happen. It would have been confusing for me if I grew up during the trans movement and my plate was already full.

I have a history of mental health issues. My wife has a history of mental health issues. I'm genuinely concerned about the mental welfare of my daughter and other people's children being raised in such a bizarre and confusing society.

Maybe the trans movement isn't crazy. Maybe there are women who have penises. We don't know everything about gender, so let's not pretend that we suddenly have all the answers. "Transphobic" people aren't really telling trans people what to think. It's the other way round.

I'm being told I have to accept things that I wasn't taught in school... that nobody was taught in school... because - all of a sudden - a very small group of people decided to change the way humanity perceives gender which is a huge thing.

You can't realistically expect the entire world to suddenly jump on board. Honestly, I think the world has done an amazing job of accommodating the emergence of this particular ideology in the west.

I don't have to change my definition of man and woman to suit trans people.

Similarly, trans people don't have to change their definitions to suit me.

@~Winterborn~
@Snafu in the Void

Give me a break about this being a political conspiracy from republicans. Men are literally turning their penises inside out and demanding the world recognize them as women. The only (widespread) suspect thing happening here, politically, is the left forcing everyone to accept their reality... or else.

Throwing out gender (without an adequate explanation) after a billion of years of evolution is a hard sell.

I struggle to comprehend why people think this is a no-brainer.

To boil it down, the best explanation I can get for the trans thing is: he said he's a woman, so he's a woman now. We're all supposed to all just suddenly accept that and restructure something as fundamental as gender?

He is not a woman.
There isn't cis woman and trans woman.
There is woman and trans woman (man).
 
The problem arises when someone says "I'm willing to be polite and adress you like you want, but i honestly don't believe you have transformed into X just by taking hormones and having surgery", and trans people/trans apologists reply with vitriol, demanding to have their delusional identity preference treated as a fact rather than appreciating the polite honesty which is the actual sanity limit for this.

Of course this argument can be drawn to an absurd degree and pretty much no-one would agree.
 
Mjäll said:
The problem arises when someone says "I'm willing to be polite and adress you like you want, but i honestly don't believe you have transformed into X just by taking hormones and having surgery", and trans people/trans apologists reply with vitriol, demanding to have their delusional identity preference treated as a fact rather than appreciating the polite honesty which is the actual sanity limit for this.

Of course this argument can be drawn to an absurd degree and pretty much no-one would agree.
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Well I’m going to sound like a bigot here, but just trying to analyze the situation, from what I can tell we don’t really know the cause of it ? Genetic, chemical imbalance, or a Legitimate soul being born in the wrong body, or whatever els , but what we do know is we have categories that people fall into in the physical world, if your born with blue eyes and put in contacts that are brown are you now brown eyed ? I don’t think so but Im not going to judge or tell someone what to do, I think a lot more research needs to be done and who knows how that would end up playing out, but there is nothing wrong with any of it and I think most people feel that way
 
@bird.is.the.word it's not a conspiracy, but it's certainly a fact that politicians and the media (on both sides) use LGBT issues to convince their constituents of the other side's insanity.

- Gay people are not grooming children en masse.

- Conservatives are not all LGBT hating bigots.

Both sides do it, for political gain. That's simply a fact.
 
Snafu in the Void said:
@bird.is.the.word it's not a conspiracy, but it's certainly a fact that politicians and the media (on both sides) use LGBT issues to convince their constituents of the other side's insanity.

- Gay people are not grooming children en masse.

- Conservatives are not all LGBT hating bigots.

Both sides do it, for political gain. That's simply a fact.
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Anything that can be weaponized politically or socially will be
 
There is a political aspect to everything, but the transphobia in the world isn't the result of politics. It is the inevitable result of this bizarre unprecedented situation in which a small group of people is suddenly dictating to the rest of us what we should think.

Everybody should be free to have their own opinions. If you take that freedom away, people are likely to get annoyed... and rightly so.
 
Las Veghost grower said:
Well I’m going to sound like a bigot here, but just trying to analyze the situation, from what I can tell we don’t really know the cause of it ? Genetic, chemical imbalance, or a Legitimate soul being born in the wrong body, or whatever els , but what we do know is we have categories that people fall into in the physical world, if your born with blue eyes and put in contacts that are brown are you now brown eyed ? I don’t think so but Im not going to judge or tell someone what to do, I think a lot more research needs to be done and who knows how that would end up playing out, but there is nothing wrong with any of it and I think most people feel that way
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You did not sound like a bigot. More like diplomatic.

Agree that more research would be good.
 
There is way more demand (by trans activists) for homophobia and transphobia than actually exists so the media along with both sides of the political leaders try to create an atmosphere of it actually happening more often than it does.

A lot of people living now have never been taught that this world is imperfect and there is always going to be someone who doesn't agree with them. When I was young I was taught that "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me"; but the belief taught now is words are violence.

The whole world would be a lot better if people stopped expecting everyone to agree on everything and just got on with their lives. We can all get along without everyone believing the same thing.

This is a (now) seldom seen quality called tolerance. It was actually a lot more prevent in society until the 1960's. That's when everyone stopped getting along and started to judge each other.

Diversity as taught today is an oxymoron.
 
Cheshire_Kat said:
Diversity as taught today is an oxymoron.
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While I am not saying that it should be ignored as an element of education the fact that diversity is considered as something that is taught kind of sums up the problem here.

Diversity is a facet of of the human condition to be experienced and beyond sharing the notion that everyone deserves basic respect at least at face value (the tenet of unconditional positive regard) I question what people need 'teaching' about. The main issue I have identified as having changed somewhat is that more people than ever started to become more comfortable than ever expressing themselves, something that is just not acceptable in the mainstream regressive agenda that needs to be pushed so hard in this day and age. To trot out a tired phrase, people are more interested 'in equality in repression than they are in the same for freedom' and the expectation to address people by their preferred pronoun or not use homophobic slurs any more is obviously just too much for folk to bear.
 
steewith2ees said:
While I am not saying that it should be ignored as an element of education the fact that diversity is considered as something that is taught kind of sums up the problem here.

Diversity is a facet of of the human condition to be experienced and beyond sharing the notion that everyone deserves basic respect at least at face value (the tenet of unconditional positive regard) I question what people need 'teaching' about. The main issue I have identified as having changed somewhat is that more people than ever started to become more comfortable than ever expressing themselves, something that is just not acceptable in the mainstream regressive agenda that needs to be pushed so hard in this day and age. To trot out a tired phrase, people are more interested 'in equality in repression than they are in the same for freedom' and the expectation to address people by their preferred pronoun or not use homophobic slurs any more is obviously just too much for folk to bear.
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When "Diversity" means excluding people, not including people then it is an oxymoron by it's very definition.
 
Cheshire_Kat said:
When "Diversity" means excluding people, not including people then it is an oxymoron by it's very definition.
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Sorry CK, I obviously did not get the inference r/whoosh style. You are of course spot on, but as it is only one of a plethora of oxymoron's used by that ilk ('patriot' being another classic) I was too slow to fully catch what you were saying.
 
Cheshire Kat said:
When I was young I was taught that "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me"; but the belief taught now is words are violence.
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@Cheshire_Kat (I misspelled it in the quote)

This is one of my favourite sentences, re: the snowflake generation. The ideal state is to not give a fuck what people think. If they're discriminating against you or hurting you in some way, that's another story.

The title of this thread is: "Someone Please Explain..."

Can someone explain to me why it matters what someone on the other side of the planet thinks?

I don't care if people who aren't in my life don't think I'm a man. Hell, I don't even care if people in my life don't think I'm a man. I said this about a year ago and Krinkle spent six months misgendering me to try to prove that I care. I seriously don't. Call me she. Call me a platypus. Gender is irrelevant online AFAIK unless I'm on tinder or something. I actually like not knowing. I like this genderless void we call the internet. It's nice to step away from all the identity shit and just be people.

I don't identify as a man. I am a man. I identify as a person.
 
bird.is.the.word said:
@Cheshire_Kat (I misspelled it in the quote)

This is one of my favourite sentences, re: the snowflake generation. The ideal state is to not give a fuck what people think. If they're discriminating against you or hurting you in some way, that's another story.

The title of this thread is: "Someone Please Explain..."

Can someone explain to me why it matters what someone on the other side of the planet thinks?

I don't care if people who aren't in my life don't think I'm a man. Hell, I don't even care if people in my life don't think I'm a man. I said this about a year ago and Krinkle spent six months misgendering me to try to prove that I care. I seriously don't. Call me she. Call me a platypus. Gender is irrelevant online AFAIK unless I'm on tinder or something. I actually like not knowing. I like this genderless void we call the internet. It's nice to step away from all the identity shit and just be people.

I don't identify as a man. I am a man. I identify as a person.
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You don’t need to identify as anything. That’s why that exists. So they can tell you that you’re not a man.

The people pushing that want men to be manual laborers and that’s it.
 
simstim said:
I feel like our whole society would be so much healthier if children were never exposed to any kind of discussion of sex or gender. It's almost impossible to do this though.
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indeed, impossible.

do you want her to learn that sex exists from her friends of the same age? or goodness forbid, from some older kid or a creepy adult?

or would you rather it comes as matter- of- factly from the science teacher or health teacher?

(i'm sure you would rather teach them the facts of life yourself, but i hope you see my point)

i am not going to try and shield my kids from reality; they need to be prepared for any potential scenario; and i would rather they have the vocabulary, and would rather they are open and honest with me as much as possible.

i can hope that no creepy adults or older kids say creepy nasty shit to them, and i can hope that someone never EVER sexually assaults them (not just because i don't want to lose my shit and end up with a life sentence)... but unfortunately, i can't prevent every bad thing. life is life, and there are some really fucked up people out there.

best i can do is teach them what exists and how to best prepare, and make sure they can tell me honestly if something bad does happen.

i'll teach them, but i also hope the school teaches them what exists.

gay people exist, trans people exist, and it does me or them zero good to keep them shrouded from reality. and there's no reason; being gay or trans is not some evil thing anyway, so to me it's like telling them asian people exist or people with red hair exist. i'll teach them to respect people and give them the benefit of the doubt, by default.

they obviously don't need to know the ins and outs (no pun intended) and dirty details of sex, but they need to know that it exists, and why they shouldn't do it until they are the appropriate age (hopefully college aged and in a relationship with a trustworthy partner, but again... reality).

same with drugs; my mom just told me not to do them (actually made me promise not to), and all that did was peak my curiosity... i had a drug fascination (obsession) before i was even in high school... pouring through medical textbooks and shit... (although i didn't do any until late high school), paid CLOSE attention in health class, etc.

i can just imagine if i didn't seek out the info and just went with what my friends said, i might have gotten into them earlier and more hardcore; and would have probably fucked my life over.

but instead, i learned about drugs and made informed decisions.

this is how i see sex education... hopefully it's for preventing stupid mistakes and tragedy, rather than sand- head- burying.
 
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