⫸Trans and LGBTQIA+ Discussion⫷

[sunday.bird]

My viewpoint is that a man sticking his dick into a woman's vagina is heterosexual, yes.
I'm not going to debate if these vaginas look a bit different or not, I can't say that I've spent time studying photos of them to have any knowledge on that front.
But even if a woman's vagina suddenly looks a little different, does that make it not straight to have sex with it?
What if it is an intersex person who was then assigned female at birth and chose to identify that way?
If the vagina *looks* slightly different to you, is it suddenly gay for you to stick your dick in it by your standards?

I really don't understand where or why you are drawing this line.
You seem very set on it being about biological sex rather than gender, or even genitalia - "maybe that's not gay?".
But you aren't really explaining why.

What is a woman's vagina?

I suggested we separate trans penis and penis, minutes ago, in an earlier post. As I write this, you haven't had a chance to respond yet I don't think.

Surely a woman's vagina is the same thing as a trans penis. Otherwise: why not just say vagina?

If it doesn't look like a vagina or function like a vagina (extra points if I literally know it isn't a vagina): it's not a vagina.

If I go to a Mexican restaurant and they serve me a burger I'm not going to accept that it's just an unusual taco.

So you do concede that some trans people can look identical to cis people, which was my point here.

Never said otherwise.

Your point - it seemed - was to suggest (by showing very selective images of the few cases of people not only transitioning into someone that passes but also transitioning into someone truly stunning) that straight men must logically find trans women attractive. You said, "I present exhibit A. The trans woman..." and showed some professionally shot airbrushed shots of young models with perfect skin who've had a hundred thousand dollars worth of surgery.

Some trans women are fucking stunning. Most of them are not. This makes sense when they're competing against 51% of the population being natural women who don't need hormones or multiple surgeries to pass as convincingly female... and doubly so when you consider that human males are specially trained in identifying differences between men and women. There is no other creature on the planet better at this than us. It's very hard for guys with most body types to pass if they transition later in life. The majority of trans women, by middle age, look pretty fucking awful. That's one of the reasons they justify doing it early. Each generation will look better and better until eventually you won't be able to tell the difference. They'll also perfect fact genitals.

In that future technology scenario, would it be gay to have sex with someone that appears 100% to be a woman and has a fully working vagina?

No. Almost certainly not.

I don't really care.

Too many questions.

 

[sunday.bird]

Therefore, getting fucked by a trans man - whether it is with a strapon, a post-op penis, or whatever - is also gay.

It's a bit gay, but it's not completely gay and neither is it completely gay when a woman is doing it.

I have to stop posting now because it's almost midnight and I don't want to turn into a pumpkin.

 

[Droppersneck]

The existence of intersex people, Klinefelter syndrome, and other conditions is enough on its own to make the chromosome argument fall apart.
Attraction isn't based on chromosomes, though the image of you DNA-testing partners before you take them out on a date or have sex with them is quite amusing.

Agreed.
Therefore, getting fucked by a trans man - whether it is with a strapon, a post-op penis, or whatever - is also gay.
You are having a man (probably a pretty masculine looking one) fuck you with a penis.
Whether or not that penis is made out of flesh (that they were born with or not) or silicone is irrelevant in my eyes.

My understanding is that pansexuality means you are attracted to all sexes and genders, gender & sex are irrelevant in your attraction to people, etc.
Whereas bisexuality just means that you are attracted to men, women, and possibly non-binary people as well.
Pansexuality may very well fit me better, I'm not sure.
I just choose to go by bi because I honestly like the sound of it better and don't really care either way.

You had me until the last point.
Trans people have different mannerisms and personalities, though I suppose you could say the same about LGBQ+ people.
Pretty much all of the trans men I know tend to act far more like men than women.
Pretty much all of the trans women I know tend to act far more like women than men.
Most trans people in Western countries (and even many outside of those countries) these days are on HRT.
Many have also had many surgeries, though the genitalia surgeries tend to be the least common as they tend to be extremely expensive and have complications.
Being trans isn't about fashion.
It's about the person on the inside, and also often involves massive changes to hormonal levels, bodies, and even genitalia.
The main difference with most trans adults in the West today is the body they were born into, and sometimes what's between their legs.
That's it.

See my point above.

I think that we can find some common ground here (Far more than I could with someone like like Priest or Dropperz, for example), but I think that we absolutely disagree on a lot of this.
Whether that is due to generational differences, life experiences, a simple difference of opinion - probably some combination of all of those.
But I will say that I do appreciate that your posts on this topic are honest and are rooted in genuine feelings & opinions.
You aren't coming at this from some brainwashed political angle. You haven't been consumed by ideology.
You are someone who, as a bisexual/pansexual/etc., is inherently invested into discussing LGBTQ+ issues just as I am.
So I do appreciate that regardless of our differences, we are able to have an actual conversation here where I know that you are arguing in good faith.
I wish that more conversations in this forum could begin from a place like that.

This is like turbo cope. You see this right? They are pushing the gender ideology stuff hard, so I get why people are going so far out on a limb with it. We can be decent people and accept folx for who they are and what they believe, and we can also believe in science/reality. Intersex is a very rare thing that is not in dispute. Horrifically mutilating your body and taking hormones doesn’t change your chromosomes. These people will never become women, it’s simply not possible. But that doesn’t mean we can’t empathize imo

 

[arrall]

Exclusively attracted to the opposite sex -? You're straight.
Exclusively attracted to the same sex -? You're gay.
Like a bit of both -? You're bi, never mind how you lean in your attraction, very few bisexuals are absolutely 50/50.

Not able to be sexually attracted to people - Asexual
Always able to be sexually attracted to people - Allosexual
Sometimes able to be sexually attracted to people - Demisexual

Do you see how these two things are essentially the same?

 

[arrall]

What is a woman's vagina?

The vagina of somebody who identifies as a woman.

showed some professionally shot airbrushed shots of young models with perfect skin

The first and third photos are from Wikipedia, the second is of a YouTuber and taken with a smartphone.

In that future technology scenario, would it be gay to have sex with someone that appears 100% to be a woman and has a fully working vagina?

No. Almost certainly not.

I think that the disagreements here boil down to:
You think that trans people don't perfectly pass as their chosen gender in terms of genitals and oftentimes appearance, therefore there is a difference in sexual orientation between someone who fucks trans women and someone who fucks cis women.

I think that fucking someone who identifies as and generally looks like a woman makes you attracted to women, and personally don't care too much what's between a person's legs in this argument or whether someone 100% "passes".

Am I correct in this distinction between our viewpoints?

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Genitals have been a pretty decent proxy for gender among humans for probably hundreds of thousands of years or more.

Many indigenous american tribes for example have been known to have assigned gender roles to people who don't quite fit to what their genitals would imply.

Indigenous tribes embraced gender fluidity prior to colonisation, but Europeans enforced specific gender roles

Ethnographic research reveals therefore, that prior to the European dominance, there were absolutely no monolithic gender systems in place. The construction of two specific gender identities as non-interchangeable absolutes, was in fact, the invention of the Euro-Western society.

indianexpress.com

 

[Droppersneck]

This is all about depersoning women imo. Taking their reproductive rights wasn’t enough I guess.

 

[Neuroborean]

Someone's religion is meant to be private not public and it is nobody's business.

but there's an issue with this, that the "left" (in quotations marks because IMO there's no real left in western countries anymore) doesn't want to acknowledge and it's sadly quite important:
in western countries we evolved socially to end up considering religion as private, and that happen not only by political and social "fight" but also by normal theological discussions and philosophical evolution. So, for example, when Immanuel Kant talked about private religion and natural religion (that inner tendency and inner a priori understanding of any religious manifestations ((the "numinous")) it wasn't just an invention of him, but a lot of centuries went through before something like that could be explained and theorically categorized.

In other places/cultures like islamic/arab countries or even animists or non-theists religions like buddhism, that type of discussions are just different or they haven't reach the same point of "evolution" (evolution is a bad/problematic word in ethnology/history, but well...

So then, if they understand our point of view is because "we" (westerners) conquered and colonized most of the world and then we created the conditions for science and democratic discussions to appear in those places, not that they didn't have their own opinions or their own history and evolution, of course they had it...
but the point here is that we shouldn't expect those other cultures to assume that our POV and type of society and tolerance thresholds/standards will coincide with theirs, that just won't happen as fast as we would like, so those issues won't resolve easily, it could happen overtime or, in the worst case, it may bring civilizational conflicts.

 

[mal3volent]

I've seen some trans guys I'd definitely fool around with. I don't think that makes me bisexual.

I agree that I don't see how two terms like bisexual and pansexual can coexist. Depending on your politics and views of gender, they are either synonymous, problematic, or they simply don't make coherent sense.

I again find myself not being able to side with all the hateful shit. While I think some of the points about the erasure of gays and women have validity, I think they can be discussed in a more nuanced and empathetic way.

 

[Droppersneck]

This is entire thread is very and then for no reason at all hitler came to powerish.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I've seen some trans guys I'd definitely fool around with. I don't think that makes me bisexual.

I agree that I don't see how two terms like bisexual and pansexual can coexist. Depending on your politics and views of gender, they are either synonymous, problematic, or they simply don't make coherent sense.

I again find myself not being able to side with all the hateful shit. While I think some of the points about the erasure of gays and women have validity, I think they can be discussed in a more nuanced and empathetic way.

That is called denial. If you want to have sex with and have sexual attraction to real actual men, as well as women who are pretending to be men/FTM based on gender theory, taking hormones, getting a full complete masectomy and hystorectomy that are not medically necessary-I hope these ladies like early menopause and dementia, and they are women/female and not male genetically, physically, or biologicaly at all then you are bisexual.

 

[mal3volent]

That is called denial. If you want to have sex with and have sexual attraction to real actual men, as well as women who are pretending to be men/FTM based on gender theory, taking hormones, getting a full complete masectomy and hystorectomy that are not medically necessary-I hope these ladies like early menopause and dementia, and they are women/female and not male genetically, physically, or biologicaly at all then you are bisexual.

So if a trans guy who looks masculine sucks my dick I'm not gay anymore? If we do other stuff not involving vaginal intercourse? how does that work ?

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

So if a trans guy who looks masculine sucks my dick I'm not gay anymore? If we do other stuff not involving vaginal intercourse? how does that work ?

Nope, you would not be homosexual/gay, you would be getting sucked off by a woman.

Would you lick her/zher clit, labia, and give her/zher oral sex or pentrate her/zher vagina with your tongue and fingers, or fist if she/zee is into this? I would do all of that but if she/zee wanted FFisting gloves would be worn on my hands and FFeet.

The only actual gay men who have sex with women are the deeply closeted and 'ex-gay' types who do not want to be homosexual/gay. Men who call themselves "gay" or "homosexual" who have sex or have sexual attraction to or with transmen are bisexual. It is like how men who claim to be straight/hetero who have sex or who want to have sex with MTF/T-gurls are really bisexual.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

But even if a woman's vagina suddenly looks a little different, does that make it not straight to have sex with it?

If it's a surgically constructed vagina on someone who was born male, I'd argue that putting your dick in there isn't a particularly heterosexual activity. It's something resembling a vagina, sure - but it's attached to man, and by definition, it isn't a vagina anymore than a fleshlight or pocket-pussy is.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

If it's a surgically constructed vagina on someone who was born male, I'd argue that putting your dick in there isn't a particularly heterosexual activity. It's something resembling a vagina, sure - but it's attached to man, and by definition, it isn't a vagina anymore than a fleshlight or pocket-pussy is.

True the same with FTM who have the fake penis-like appendage made with tissue from their arm, leg, a dildo or enlarged or pumped up clitoris they call a 'cock'.

I am not against very casually dating an MTF or FTM, but the plastic surgery and elective cosmetic surgery on their body, how they do not naturally smell like the opposite sex/gender would be a turn off as well as their surgical imitation of genitals that do not taste, smell, or function the way they do on actual women or men. Not to mention the severe mental health issues and how many are super angry and 'triggered' over things or events that do not matter.

 

[Droppersneck]

This chud woman is seething about targets early roll out of pride month grooming gear.

 

[mal3volent]

Nope, you would not be homosexual/gay, you would be getting sucked off by a woman.

oh okay, so a person who passes as a man giving me oral sex changes my sexual orientation. What is that, magic or something? Is it the mere act that takes my gay card away or is it if I enjoy it? If so, am I still gay before I cum, then bisexual after?

 

[mal3volent]

also, what about people in prison who have sex with each other? Do their orientations change as well?

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

oh okay, so a person who passes as a man giving me oral sex changes my sexual orientation. What is that, magic or something? Is it the mere act that takes my gay card away or is it if I enjoy it? If so, am I still gay before I cum, then bisexual after?

Despite the hormones, steroids, and radical elective cosmetic surgeries trans "men" or FTM don't 'pass' as actually male or men at all, and despite the silly mantra of "Transmen are men and were born male in the wrong body! Destroy women and feminism!" trans "men"/FTM are not men or male genetically, biologically, or physically at all.

It is based on sexual attraction if you get aroused, have sex fantasies, and/or like to watch and masturbate to porn with FTM then yeah you are bisexual, not gay or homosexual.

It is not magic, it is human sexuality 101.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

also, what about people in prison who have sex with each other? Do their orientations change as well?

Yes this can happen it depends upon if the sex was actually consensual or not, and if the woman or man is self-aware enough to realise that they are actually bisexual, or gay.

I know various ex-cons and prison or jail guards and staff. Prison or jail rape and sexual assaults do happen but it is nowhere near as prevalent or as common as it is shown in films, on TV, or in soap dropping jokes. A prisoner is much more likely to get beat up, threatened with being beat up, raped, or killed for any money they have and most prisoners just want to do their time.