Bupe Is Naloxone really inert? Suboxone IS inferior.

[dhopeless]

First, a little background. I am 22 years old, and have been addicted to opiates since I was 17. I got on Suboxone when I was 18 years old. For the first 8 months or so, I took the sub under my tongue, like I was supposed to. Then I started snorting them. I loved my suboxone. It made me so full of life and energetic. A couple months after I started snorting the Suboxone, I found a new doctor who put me on Subutex. The difference between Subutex and Suboxone is night and day. The analgesia is much better, it feels 'cleaner', you don't get those annoying headaches, no nasty flavor, and the most different effect I notice is the increased energy. When I take suboxone I experience much less euphoria and stimulation. I remember getting so high off Subutex after I got prescribed, it was unbelievable that they would give this stuff to addicts. Prior to then, I had never even heard of tex being around. So for over two years I snorted my Subutex without ever touching a Suboxone, because I was prescribed to tex. Last July I got arrested and incarcerated, and was forced to withdraw, cold turkey, off my Subutex AND Klonopin. I don't need to explain how horrible that was. I was released a month and a half later, with no more prescriptions. In the area I live, opiate addiction is rampid and hard to avoid. Within a week I was doing heroin and OC's again, and buying subs when I could. This is when I realized how fortunate I was to be getting tex all those years. Two months after I was released, I begged my doctor to make room for me to come back in because life was terrible without my meds. In addition to addiction, I suffer chronic back pain which Subutex takes care of nicely. He agreed, and I was back on the subs. A month ago I stupidly ran out of Subutex and had a rough month until I filled my script a couple days ago. During this time, I was mostly taking Suboxone, as that's all I could buy around here. It was terrible stuff. I did not experience even close to the opiate euphoria or energetic effects I get from Subutex while on Suboxone, even if I injected it The couple times I did manage to get my hands on some Subutex, I felt so much better. I realized over this last month that despite all the people on this forum claiming that "Naloxone is inert", and that "There is no difference between the effects of either", Naloxone MUST interact with the buprenorphine on some level. If I inject 1mg of Subutex, I feel it almost immediately, and get a sort of mild, yet very pleasant opiate rush, followed by a very happy and energetic high. If I inject 1, or even 2 or 3 mgs of Suboxone, it takes me several minutes to feel any sort of high, and I do not get the stimulating effects nearly as much as with Subutex. Even if I take it as directed, or snort it, Suboxone is defiantly inferior to Subutex.

Now, my theory is that Naloxone prevents the buprenorphine from sticking to certain receptors entirely, and also prevents the bupe from sticking to all of the receptors as rapidly. I believe the reason it takes me 45 minutes to reach peak affects with Suboxone is because of Naloxone temporarily blocking the drug from the receptors. When I IV a Subutex, I feel the effects instantly and the 'rush' is much, much more pleasant. Even if I snort Subutex it feels much better and kicks in much faster, and also provides much better pain relief. Whatever the reason, I am convinced this is a real phenomenon. Now, can someone either validate my theory, or give me some factual evidence of another reason why Subutex is superior? Every one of my friends feels the same way too, so it's not just me. Naloxone must NOT be completely inert.

 

[bigzip44]

without any doubt, suboxone is far inferior to subutex. the nalaxone content is NOT "inert", and it definitely FUCKS you full of side effects. i'd almost rather be dopesick than take suboxone. that's me.

btw that comes from 5+ years on/off suboxone and finally finally being switched to subutex and now i can stay the fuck off dope
fuck suboxone
love subutex
yay for subUTEX!

 

[dhopeless]

fuck suboxone
love subutex
yay for subUTEX!

Agreed.

Nobody else can add to this.?

 

[cire113]

ive tried sub and tex and they are both the same to me... i spit out my salvia after about 10 mins so i never swallow the nalaxone..

but technically buprenorphine is the same chemical in both of them so i think its placebo... also the bupe out competes any nalaxone that you do absorb...

but i Agree with you on that NALAXONE blows... thats why i spit out my dose that shit does give unwanted side effects.. like headaches..

but honestly my dr is so fucking dumb he wont perscribe me subutex so fucking lame..

as far as the high they are both the same IMO; buprenorphine speaking;

 

[Pegasus]

It seems the headache complain from Suboxone is kind of common. I personally didn't get different effects from Suboxone/ Subutex, but it could be different for others.

 

[Antecessor]

If injected i get no effects from suboxone, just headaches and bad feelings.
Injecting subutex i get very high, like heroin, and such a nice clean high.
Anyone saying naloxone is not active when injected is wrong, it is.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

^Do you get the same thing when snorting the two preparations?

I've sublingually administered Suboxone and Buprenex (buprenorphine in a solution prepared for injection) and noticed zero difference in the effects.

 

[BHannon24]

i honestly can say i kinda notice a difference in the two as of late because i had a five day supply of subutex generic and usually i get the strips and i have been doin less than a quarter of a sub a day and been having way better effects than the strips i was snorting it so that could validate the mg difference but they are still def better effects

 

[Antecessor]

^Do you get the same thing when snorting the two preparations?

I've sublingually administered Suboxone and Buprenex (buprenorphine in a solution prepared for injection) and noticed zero difference in the effects.

No, no difference when snorting or sublingual as far as i can tell, just shooting, which makes sense really.
I get a mix of 1*8mg suboxone and 3*0.4 subutex tabs each day.
I get SO high from just 6 of the little ones injected, its comparable with my one heroin experience.

 

[dhopeless]

If injected i get no effects from suboxone, just headaches and bad feelings.
Injecting subutex i get very high, like heroin, and such a nice clean high.
Anyone saying naloxone is not active when injected is wrong, it is.

Yes, same here. I get little effect and no high when injecting suboxone, but I get really high and a sort of rush when I inject subutex. Even when snorting them, I don't seem to feel suboxone for a while, whereas when I inject tex I feel the effects instantly.

 

[dhopeless]

i honestly can say i kinda notice a difference in the two as of late because i had a five day supply of subutex generic and usually i get the strips and i have been doin less than a quarter of a sub a day and been having way better effects than the strips i was snorting it so that could validate the mg difference but they are still def better effects

The strips are the worst. I can't stand those things, I have to take so much to even get relief and it's impossible to get high. I'd take 1mg of subutex or 8mgs of suboxone any day.

 

[Trigeminal]

The strips are the worst. I can't stand those things, I have to take so much to even get relief and it's impossible to get high. I'd take 1mg of subutex or 8mgs of suboxone any day.

That's because it's not meant to get you high...

 

[dhopeless]

That's because it's not meant to get you high...

I need to be high 24/7 to abstain from other opiates. It's too bad Suboxone is what is usually prescribed in this country, I am happy to get tex because I could never abstain with Suboxone.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

There is a ceiling on the agonist effects of buprenorphine because its a mixed agonist-antagonist (more commonly called a partial agonist because it functions as an agonist up until a point). Sublingually this ceiling is around 2-4mg and intranasally it's more like 1-2mg. Beyond this, the only difference is the strength and duration of the blockade. You can take all the suboxone OR subutex you fucking want but it's not going to be any stronger than approximately 30mg of methadone and you reach that ceiling at the levels I listed above. This has nothing to do with naloxone.

Nobody NEEDS to be high 24/7 - this is pure rationalization and another way of saying you're simply unwilling to do what it takes to achieve and maintain sobriety. I'm not attacking you because it's really fucking hard to do this but to claim that it's a necessity is pure fiction.

 

[Znegative]

unfortunately, the only time I was able to get my hands on some subutex was when I was already in missery and on suboxone for opana withdrawals. I tried it every route available, shot it, snorted it (actually didnt smoke it but c'mon), shoved it up my ass, and I have to say that I do agree with you. I don't think the significance is probably that much better, but like the person before mentioned way less side effects, none of that horrible taste (which the film did not solve, I'm sorry, it just dissolves it faster but I can still taste 2 mg of suboxone in my mouth 7 hours after I't's dissolved.
I also know that the I.V route doesn't really make a difference, though, unless you want to shoot above 1 mg, in which case subutex is far superior. I've shot up 8 mg of suboxone, and the precipitated withdrawal is bullshit obviously, but it will give you one hell of a head ache, and it seems to dehydrated me more.)

I just think regardless of whether the subutex gets you a little higher than the suboxone, eventually it's going to all even out when tolerance kicks up, so why can't they just let addicts have generic subutex, which is a lot cheaper, and is covered more frequently by insurance companies? It always makes me feel so mad at R&B, now that I've changed my insurance due to the fact that I turned 23 and I started a new college and can't be covered by my mom's insurance anymore, I've gone from paying 30$ co-pay, to upWards of 700$ for a single month. thank god I'm not taking 24 mg a day anymore though. shiit.

There is a ceiling on the agonist effects of buprenorphine because its a mixed agonist-antagonist (more commonly called a partial agonist because it functions as an agonist up until a point). Sublingually this ceiling is around 2-4mg and intranasally it's more like 1-2mg. Beyond this, the only difference is the strength and duration of the blockade. You can take all the suboxone OR subutex you fucking want but it's not going to be any stronger than approximately 30mg of methadone and you reach that ceiling at the levels I listed above. This has nothing to do with naloxone.

Nobody NEEDS to be high 24/7 - this is pure rationalization and another way of saying you're simply unwilling to do what it takes to achieve and maintain sobriety. I'm not attacking you because it's really fucking hard to do this but to claim that it's a necessity is pure fiction.

the one argument I have for higher levels of buprenorphine (going past the cieling effect) is that it does seem in my case to cut the cravings for heroin down significantly from the point of willing to sell my new ipod for one shitty bag of dope, to basically feeling fine with not getting high on dope again. So I don't know if that's more of a psychological thing, knowing that you can't get high makes it seem pointless, or if it's actually fullfilling some desire in your opiate receptors, but I feel like either way it's not a terrible thing to be on a huge dosage of suboxone, unless you can't pay for it. Like I for example would rather stay on as high as 32 mg of suboxone a day for the time being because I know that holds me and keeps my head off hte dope, but I' also have had enough experience with suboxone to know that after a while that "honeymoon" phase as they call it ends, and you're left feeling sluggish and unmotivated all the time on such a dosage. that's why I feel for me personally, 4 mg in the morning and 4 in the evening is probably a perfect dosage, but unfortunately even that is really too expensive for me to keep maintaining so I'm going to try once I get some phenaz. to get back down to 4 mg or lower (would love to just quit, but don't have the faith right now in myself that I wont just try and get high again after day 3 on dope or even on sub).

One thing that bother's me though the most about buprenorphine is that when you actually are tapering it down, after the initial hit you take, you actually get higher once your taking sublingual dosages of say 2 mg or lower, because your body just sucks those bupe micrograms up because its going in to deficit. Normally that would be great, but if you want to quit it kind of is then teasing like you, I swear to god I feel like it's like a girl (or a boy to be pc)who've you've tried so hard to break up with but your still fucking daily, but less frequently, and the sex is getting better and better, even though your sure in your heart that you don't want to be doing it anymore.

That's what has always brought me down, I've tried to quite suboxone 4 times, and I always really wanted to stay off of it or stay on a super low dosage, but then I'd decided to get high on dope for a day, which would turn into however long I could maintain a habit for, or I would just want to see if I could get high off my suboxone since I hadn't taken it in three days, or up my dosage from 1 to 16 mg, to also try and get high, and then end up so dissapointed in myself that I just don't go back and stay on the 1 mg and learn from my mistakes. I suppose that's the nature of addiction though, it's impossible to really say you used for any reason without making an excuse, because addiction in itself is a raw jumble of emotions, the biggest on being lust, followed by envy, and greed. not trying to make it sound like a sin, cause I don't believe it really is, I think it's a sickness that manifests its self with sins as its symptoms. I'll shut up, I'm really wired right now, too much PeeVee. I'll leave this post alone .

 

[dhopeless]

the one argument I have for higher levels of buprenorphine (going past the cieling effect) is that it does seem in my case to cut the cravings for heroin down significantly from the point of willing to sell my new ipod for one shitty bag of dope, to basically feeling fine with not getting high on dope again. So I don't know if that's more of a psychological thing, knowing that you can't get high makes it seem pointless, or if it's actually fullfilling some desire in your opiate receptors, but I feel like either way it's not a terrible thing to be on a huge dosage of suboxone, unless you can't pay for it. Like I for example would rather stay on as high as 32 mg of suboxone a day for the time being because I know that holds me and keeps my head off hte dope, but I' also have had enough experience with suboxone to know that after a while that "honeymoon" phase as they call it ends, and you're left feeling sluggish and unmotivated all the time on such a dosage. that's why I feel for me personally, 4 mg in the morning and 4 in the evening is probably a perfect dosage, but unfortunately even that is really too expensive for me to keep maintaining so I'm going to try once I get some phenaz. to get back down there or lower.

The longer I have been on Subutex, the more I've lowered my dose. I used to shoot 4mg 3x daily, then I cut down to 2mgs 3x daily. Now I am at about 1mg 3 or 4 times a day, and honestly the I feel it much more at lower doses. I take tolerance breaks too, the entire last month I sick half the time from drastically lowering my dose. Now I'm high as I was the first time again.

I know that Subutex has a much cleaner, energetic, and euphoric feeling to it. The difference is night and day to me! Maybe I'm more sensitive to naloxone?

 

[Antecessor]

I cant believe the situation u poor americans have over there in regards to medical costs, here in australia everyone has full medical paid for by the rich.

Co pay is $5 a day on the methadone program, any dosage.

Anyway as i said before 2.4 mg of subutex injected gets me high, any amount of suboxone injected will not do ANYTHING. However suboxone makes me mildly high when snorted or sublingual, same as subutex. The only explanation is the naloxone becoming active when injected and not otherwise.

 

[itsok]

I agree w zneg about the honeymoon phase of suboxone.... for myself at least, suboxone long-term makes me listless and depressed and becomes hellish to taper off entirely. and I think that has to do with the nalaxone in it. I wonder for those on subutex, if they just can take it for years and feel fine.

Also, I hate those strips. I find them very uneffective and would much rather have those shitty pills again instead this film which sticks inbetween my teeth accidentally so i can taste it after 7 hrs unless i floss, brush, mouthwash, etc...

Anyway, currently, if I if fuck up and get addicted to h again, and I'm out of mxe, I use subs to do a short term taper with clonidine. I do wish my dr. would give me subutex considering that I have failed on subs since 2/2006!

 

[dhopeless]

I agree w zneg about the honeymoon phase of suboxone.... for myself at least, suboxone long-term makes me listless and depressed and becomes hellish to taper off entirely. and I think that has to do with the nalaxone in it. I wonder for those on subutex, if they just can take it for years and feel fine.

Also, I hate those strips. I find them very uneffective and would much rather have those shitty pills again instead this film which sticks inbetween my teeth accidentally so i can taste it after 7 hrs unless i floss, brush, mouthwash, etc...

Anyway, currently, if I if fuck up and get addicted to h again, and I'm out of mxe, I use subs to do a short term taper with clonidine. I do wish my dr. would give me subutex considering that I have failed on subs since 2/2006!

I have been taking Subutex for 3 years, and I feel great. Suboxone is just a dirty pill to me...I'd rather do a 30 or dope than take those. However, my favorite opiate to take is a Teva brand generic Subutex. I prefer them over the Roxane for sure...the name brand was good too. But I really hate Suboxone...

 

[after8mink]

Not my area of experience, but I was under the impression that naloxone is present in Suboxone to discourage IV abuse.