• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

Are humans born with their own set of values?

Changed said:
Even with a very minimal amount of philosophical schooling, I know that this is the basic epistemological question of nature vs nurture.
Click to expand...

Nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. You should check out the book The Dependent Gene: The Fallacy of "Nature vs. Nurture" by David S. Moore
 
High Yogi said:
Value systems fail because they become dogmatic. Why look to any values, values are just what they give us to live by, so that we may stay true to some ideal as the "perfect citizen". This is a problem because in the process of doing so, we lose ourselves. If we lose ourselves, weve lost it all
Click to expand...
values are unique to the person. Someone who works their entire life values a day off, someone who's loaded values their huge house and their German car. Sure there are plenty of general widespread values people follow, but the person makes the conscious decision whether it's something they want to value
Yes values do seem important, but I think even more important than somebody elses imposed order or way of life, is to find our own way of life, true to direct experience, guided by the wisdom of the heart and the love for god, however we may take Him to be.
Click to expand...
This just makes no sense. Your saying we should all have our own set of values and not live our lives based on someone else standards, and then you say we should follow god? Christianity/Catholicism are all about an imposed set of values, set fourth by god or Jesus or whoever in that big book called the bible
 
God, does not only exist in Christianity or Catholicism:-)
no sir-e... thats whats so neat about God, as a point of light - Jesus was only a vessel, a part of a triad; a Stella Triad; one which has seem to of been thrown over board by modern mega-religions.

the Christos, are strikingly similar to the trinity in many faiths.
it is the manifold of the universe ever-present and always unseen - but felt rather and created by Life Love and Light.


... for myself anyways, this is how i have respect for Buddhism, and "Christianity" - no where to run to baby...!
 
^^Alright yeah I should've been more specific, but whatever religion it is you follow a majority of them have their own set of values and beliefs they expect their followers to practice
 
I said to follow god not to follow a religion. that is the entire purpose behind my post. God is right there sitting next to you as you read this, and yet you continue looking for a way or path to find god, or a way to live with god, you seek somebody elses answer to your questions, when you should be asking the question directly to the root source of all answers, which would be God Himself. God lives on through you and carries the answers to all of your problems. Why do you need to bring philosophy of any sort into anything? Simply follow your heart. The Buddha said that there is only one book worth reading and that is the heart. I completely agree. OKay so to help clarify where im coming from I found this text from Osho, he says it much better than I. This comes from his book "Courage: the joy of living dangerously.". In it he says:

"YOU WERE BORN AS A NO-MIND.
Let this sink into your heart as deeply as possible because through that, a door opens. If you were born as a no-mind, then the mind is just a social product. It is nothing natural, it is cultivated. It has been put together on top of you. Deep down you are still free, you can get out of it. One can never get out of nature, but one can get out of the artificial any moment one decides to.
Existence precedes thinking. So existence is not a state of mind, it is a state beyond. To 'be', nbot to think, is the way to know the fundamental. Science means thinking, philsophy means thinking, theology means thinking. Religiousness does not mean thinking. The religious approach is a non thinking approach. It is more intimate, it brings you closer to reality. It drops all that hinders, it unblocks you; you start flowing into life. You dont think that you are seperate, looking. You dont think that you are a watcher, aloof, distant. You meet, mingle, and merge into reality."

Coming from another section of the book, which details this same discussion:

"EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD WANTS TO BE TRUE
because just to be true brings so much joy and such an abundance of blissfulness, why should one be false? You have to have the courage for a little deeper insight:why are you afraid? What can the world do to you? People can laugh at you, it will do them good-laughter is always a medicine, healthful. Peole can think you are mad....just because they think you are mad, you dont become mad."
" My responsibility is toward my heart, not toward anybody else in the world. So is your responsibility only toward your own being. Dont go against it, because going against it is commiting suicide, is destroying yourself. And what is the gain? Even if people give you respect, and people think you are a very sober, respectable, honorable man, these things are not going to nourish your being. They are not going to give you any more insight into life and its tremendous beauty.
How many trillion of people have lived before you on this earth? You dont event know their names; whether they lived or not does not make a difference.there have been saints and there have been sinners, and there have been very respectable people, and thre have been all kinds of eccentrics, crazy, but they have all disappeared-not even a trace has remained on the earth.
Your sole concern should be to take care of and protect those qualities that you can take with you when death destroys your body, your mind, because these qualities will be your soul companions. They are the only real values, and the people who attain them-only they live; others pretend to live."

"DONT LISTEN TO THE SCRIPTURES- listen to your own heart. that is the only scripture i prescribe:listen very attentively,very consciously, and you will never be wrong. And listening to your own heart, you will never be divided. Listening to your own heart, you will move in the right direction, without ever thinking of what is right and what is wrong."
"But dont ever follow the rules imposed by the outside. No imposed rule can ever be right-because rules are invented by people who want to rule you! Yes, sometimes there have been great enlightened people in the world, too- a buddha, a jesus, a krishna, a mohammed. They have not given any rules to the world-they have given their love. But sooner or later the disciples gather together and start making codes of conduct. Once the Master is gone, once the light is gone and they are in deep darkness, they start groping for certain rules to follow, because now the light in which they could have seen is no longer there. Now they will have to depend on rules.
What jesus did was his own hearts whispering, and what christians go on doing is not their own hearts whispering. They are imitators- and the moment you imitate you insult your humanity, you insult your God.
Never be an imitator, be always an original. Dont become a carbon copy. But thats what is happening all over the world-carbon copies and more carbon copies."

Yeah so I believe Osho hit this one right on the nose. What do you guys think?
 
High Yogi, you are obviously very passionate about what you're speaking about, but you're derailing a thread that is about the issue of innate morality with discussion that, though you might find interesting, is not really relevant. Perhaps you could start a thread to discuss your topic and we could get this one back on track?
 
Vader said:
High Yogi, you are obviously very passionate about what you're speaking about, but you're derailing a thread that is about the issue of innate morality with discussion that, though you might find interesting, is not really relevant. Perhaps you could start a thread to discuss your topic and we could get this one back on track?
Click to expand...

How isnt it relevant? I only posted it because I thought it was perfectly relevant and could reveal some insights. Sorry if you think it is "off topic". Can you explain how it is so?
 
Value systems fail because they become dogmatic. Why look to any values, values are just what they give us to live by, so that we may stay true to some ideal as the "perfect citizen". This is a problem because in the process of doing so, we lose ourselves. If we lose ourselves, weve lost it all. Yes values do seem important, but I think even more important than somebody elses imposed order or way of life, is to find our own way of life, true to direct experience, guided by the wisdom of the heart and the love for god, however we may take Him to be.
Click to expand...
I said to follow god not to follow a religion. that is the entire purpose behind my post. God is right there sitting next to you as you read this, and yet you continue looking for a way or path to find god, or a way to live with god, you seek somebody elses answer to your questions, when you should be asking the question directly to the root source of all answers, which would be God Himself. God lives on through you and carries the answers to all of your problems. Why do you need to bring philosophy of any sort into anything? Simply follow your heart. The Buddha said that there is only one book worth reading and that is the heart. I completely agree.
Click to expand...
EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD WANTS TO BE TRUE
because just to be true brings so much joy and such an abundance of blissfulness, why should one be false? You have to have the courage for a little deeper insight:why are you afraid? What can the world do to you? People can laugh at you, it will do them good-laughter is always a medicine, healthful. Peole can think you are mad....just because they think you are mad, you dont become mad."
" My responsibility is toward my heart, not toward anybody else in the world. So is your responsibility only toward your own being. Dont go against it, because going against it is commiting suicide, is destroying yourself. And what is the gain? Even if people give you respect, and people think you are a very sober, respectable, honorable man, these things are not going to nourish your being. They are not going to give you any more insight into life and its tremendous beauty.
How many trillion of people have lived before you on this earth? You dont event know their names; whether they lived or not does not make a difference.there have been saints and there have been sinners, and there have been very respectable people, and thre have been all kinds of eccentrics, crazy, but they have all disappeared-not even a trace has remained on the earth.
Your sole concern should be to take care of and protect those qualities that you can take with you when death destroys your body, your mind, because these qualities will be your soul companions. They are the only real values, and the people who attain them-only they live; others pretend to live."

"DONT LISTEN TO THE SCRIPTURES- listen to your own heart. that is the only scripture i prescribe:listen very attentively,very consciously, and you will never be wrong. And listening to your own heart, you will never be divided. Listening to your own heart, you will move in the right direction, without ever thinking of what is right and what is wrong."
"But dont ever follow the rules imposed by the outside. No imposed rule can ever be right-because rules are invented by people who want to rule you! Yes, sometimes there have been great enlightened people in the world, too- a buddha, a jesus, a krishna, a mohammed. They have not given any rules to the world-they have given their love. But sooner or later the disciples gather together and start making codes of conduct. Once the Master is gone, once the light is gone and they are in deep darkness, they start groping for certain rules to follow, because now the light in which they could have seen is no longer there. Now they will have to depend on rules.
What jesus did was his own hearts whispering, and what christians go on doing is not their own hearts whispering. They are imitators- and the moment you imitate you insult your humanity, you insult your God.
Never be an imitator, be always an original. Dont become a carbon copy. But thats what is happening all over the world-carbon copies and more carbon copies."
Click to expand...
All of this stuff seemed to me to be more of a general expounding of an ethical and theological framework rather than anything that particularly pertained to the discussion at hand. The only part that did deal with the issue of innate morality did not contain any argument as such, only a repeated statement of a proposition with no supporting evidence.
 
You must be reading it wrong. The title of this thread is "Are humans born with their own set of human values" and i basically answered this question with the answer "yes". I then detailed on how and why we are born with our own set of human values and how instead of following our own natural values, we possibly instead follow the values of others, or perhaps "rules". I even provided evidence from Osho to help back my claim and develop understanding of where I am coming from, as he has gotten into this same topic of discussion.

When Osho says "YOU WERE BORN AS A NO-MIND.
Let this sink into your heart as deeply as possible because through that, a door opens. If you were born as a no-mind, then the mind is just a social product. It is nothing natural, it is cultivated. It has been put together on top of you. Deep down you are still free, you can get out of it. One can never get out of nature, but one can get out of the artificial any moment one decides to." What do you think he is talking about?

He is saying that we we have both, natural instincts of what is right and wrong, and also, the conditioned belief systems that tell us what is right and wrong. He says that to follow the conditioned belief systems that tell us what is right and wrong may go against our own nature as individuals, because we give ourselves up for some false code of conduct imposed by somebody elses order. This is a problem because each individual is different. We are all equal as humans, so why should i follow your order or you follow my order? let us follow our own order!
 
^^what your doing is like the equivalent of me copying and pasting passages from the bible or w.e as my reply. Your answers just coming off as really vague and what we should be doing. The question isn't "what does osho think we should do with our values?" the questions are we born with a set of values, all you did was state someone else's argument

I gotta say I definitely disagree with you saying we shouldn't follow society's norms. Like what about breaking the law? I would love to go get some money from the kwickie mart but I don't do it because I'll probably get arrested and thrown in jail. Are you saying screw jail since I want to do it I should do it? Because that's how it sounds..

Or that I'm the only being I should ever care for in life..what about if I have children, or my mother gets cancer, I shouldn't care for them the same as I would myself? And when you make assumptions by saying everyone in the world wants to be true...how do you know that? I don't think you can speak for 6.7 billion people or w.e it is

I said to follow god not to follow a religion. that is the entire purpose behind my post. God is right there sitting next to you as you read this, and yet you continue looking for a way or path to find god, or a way to live with god, you seek somebody elses answer to your questions, when you should be asking the question directly to the root source of all answers, which would be God Himself. God lives on through you and carries the answers to all of your problems. Why do you need to bring philosophy of any sort into anything?
Click to expand...

Who are you making this conclusion about? I hope it's not responding to my reply b.c you have no idea how I view god, or religion, spirituality or w.e. But hold on... "why do you need to bring philosophy into anything" what, you think it's irrelevant? Your boy osho there was a philosopher...your entire post is about a philosopher
 
RogerandMe said:
Nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. You should check out the book The Dependent Gene: The Fallacy of "Nature vs. Nurture" by David S. Moore
Click to expand...

Exactly, though I don't have a particular book in mind. I think that it's more accurate to say that social structures, intertwined with cultural forms, condition which 'value-sets' will be available to adopt within a given social context. From here, biological conditions will interact with social contexts to shape where an individual arrives at, within that selection of value-sets.

ebola
 
Wolfmans_BrothEr said:
^^what your doing is like the equivalent of me copying and pasting passages from the bible or w.e as my reply. Your answers just coming off as really vague and what we should be doing. The question isn't "what does osho think we should do with our values?" the questions are we born with a set of values, all you did was state someone else's argument

I gotta say I definitely disagree with you saying we shouldn't follow society's norms. Like what about breaking the law? I would love to go get some money from the kwickie mart but I don't do it because I'll probably get arrested and thrown in jail. Are you saying screw jail since I want to do it I should do it? Because that's how it sounds..

Or that I'm the only being I should ever care for in life..what about if I have children, or my mother gets cancer, I shouldn't care for them the same as I would myself? And when you make assumptions by saying everyone in the world wants to be true...how do you know that? I don't think you can speak for 6.7 billion people or w.e it is



Who are you making this conclusion about? I hope it's not responding to my reply b.c you have no idea how I view god, or religion, spirituality or w.e. But hold on... "why do you need to bring philosophy into anything" what, you think it's irrelevant? Your boy osho there was a philosopher...your entire post is about a philosopher
Click to expand...

No, I did not start off answering the question with Osho's passage. I thought i would go the extra mile and find some additional information of which shares my perspective on the topic at hand. Osho said the same thing I was trying to say.

Also, You said we should make sure to follows societies laws, but you say this out of fear of punishment from going to jail. I do not think that we should set our socieity up to follow a law and order, only not doing something from fear of punishment. I think we should teach our society to not do stuff because it is wrong to do, because the other person has a right to the property just as they have a right to live and breathe. Do you get this? Its like, if you were alone in the liquor store and u could get away with theft, would u steal? The person follow a rule imposed by the outside would because he no longer has to worry about the outside getting him trouble, as he knows he can get away. But it is he who realizes in his own heart that theft is wrong either way who doesnt steal, because he knows himself to still be the witness to the theft;he follows his heart.

And no, i am not saying at all to only care for yourself and not for any others. I follow the law of one. The law of one states: If you hurt others, you hurt yourself. If you help others, you help yourself. If You hurt yourself, you hurt others. If you hurt others, you hurt yourself. By this law, one should do his best to keep himself as good as he can so that everywhere he goes, he is a blessing and not a nuisance. I am saying for you to build yourself up in a good way. I am saying to follow your own heart and listen to that first before anything else. Im sure your heart will tell you to take care of your children or your mom getting cancer. This is so obvious, IDK whats the argument.

And i never said every1 wants to be true. Osho did and he says why "because just to be true brings so much joy and such an abundance of blissfulness, why should one be false?" but the problem is, we arent being "true" what we are being is imitators. To be true would mean to be original, to live in experience and in the now as yourself. To be a carbon copy, or artificial would mean to follow someobody elses rule. This makes you a carbon copy because you arent alive, feeling. What you are is mindless, a robot, unable to feel and experience as you hide behind a wall of linguistics and codes of conduct.

And also, I was not trying to make any conclusions about anyone. I mean you as in everyone.
 
High Yogi said:
Also, You said we should make sure to follows societies laws, but you say this out of fear of punishment from going to jail. I do not think that we should set our socieity up to follow a law and order, only not doing something from fear of punishment. I think we should teach our society to not do stuff because it is wrong to do, because the other person has a right to the property just as they have a right to live and breathe. Do you get this? Its like, if you were alone in the liquor store and u could get away with theft, would u steal? The person follow a rule imposed by the outside would because he no longer has to worry about the outside getting him trouble, as he knows he can get away. But it is he who realizes in his own heart that theft is wrong either way who doesnt steal, because he knows himself to still be the witness to the theft;he follows his heart.
Click to expand...

In the world we live in things arent learned unless there are consequences. People work because money is a consequence of working, we have sex because the consequence is feeling good/procreating, we drink b.c getting drunk is the consequence. Everything is determined by consequence and we weigh the pros and cons of each to see whether it's worth it for us

We didn't just wake up one day with a bunch of new laws and regulations, things used to be like you said, but people proved to not be trusted, so we had to set laws in place to keep the order. Look you can complain about things all you want but the fact is we did this to ourselves. We wouldn't have laws and be throwing people in jail for theft if people didn't steal. Unfortunately for most people telling them shame on you isn't good enough, most people don't learn until they suffer the consequences...if you stole from everyone and you never suffer anything for it...you'd keep doing it. Never mind the fact that it's wrong, obviously you don't care since you continue to steal shit..so the only other option is prosecution

Good parents do teach their children right from wrong, it's not the case for everyone obviously since our jail systems are overcrowded...you try running the world on the honor system and see how far it gets you, there will be anarchy

Oh and just because a person has a right to live and breathe doesn't mean they have a right to property. I have the right to live and breathe do I have the right to your car?

Vader was right, this thread has gone from talking about whether were born with values to how you think the world should be. We get it, you think we should all live like hippies...stop trying to impose it on everyone else it's annoying.

Now back to discussion...Are humans born with their own set of values?
 
Wolfmans_BrothEr said:
In the world we live in things arent learned unless there are consequences. People work because money is a consequence of working, we have sex because the consequence is feeling good/procreating, we drink b.c getting drunk is the consequence. Everything is determined by consequence and we weigh the pros and cons of each to see whether it's worth it for us

We didn't just wake up one day with a bunch of new laws and regulations, things used to be like you said, but people proved to not be trusted, so we had to set laws in place to keep the order. Look you can complain about things all you want but the fact is we did this to ourselves. We wouldn't have laws and be throwing people in jail for theft if people didn't steal. Unfortunately for most people telling them shame on you isn't good enough, most people don't learn until they suffer the consequences...if you stole from everyone and you never suffer anything for it...you'd keep doing it. Never mind the fact that it's wrong, obviously you don't care since you continue to steal shit..so the only other option is prosecution

Good parents do teach their children right from wrong, it's not the case for everyone obviously since our jail systems are overcrowded...you try running the world on the honor system and see how far it gets you, there will be anarchy

Oh and just because a person has a right to live and breathe doesn't mean they have a right to property. I have the right to live and breathe do I have the right to your car?

Vader was right, this thread has gone from talking about whether were born with values to how you think the world should be. We get it, you think we should all live like hippies...stop trying to impose it on everyone else it's annoying.

Now back to discussion...Are humans born with their own set of values?
Click to expand...

Yes, consequences are already predetermined for the circumstance, because so many different actions have always been proven to reach a certain outcome. In other words, we all already know stealing is bad and so we make it illegal. Im not arguing this because i do believe some laws are necessary for any civilization/tribe/whatever. this is a part of being human. What I am trying to get at here, is that instead of following a list of shoulds and should nots and doing our best to follow these rules and then feeling guilty about not being up to par with some outrageous doctrine, we should simply follow our own hearts, and in doing so, we will already be staying true to all of the religions of the world right from our very being. I am not saying this is easy. I am just stating this as my opinion and with the best of my knowledge. I am saying that we are born with our own set of values and that we do not need to look anywhere else for their values. Now i am not saying we should all live like hippies, you are blowing this out of proportion. lets not get ridiculous here. If i follow my heart, it may lead me to go climb a mountain, or to seek an adventure, or to get at hot girls, or to chant mantras, or to learn something new. You just dont know what i am talking about and so you are confusing it with some garbage.

and also, when you said "Oh and just because a person has a right to live and breathe doesn't mean they have a right to property. I have the right to live and breathe do I have the right to your car?"

You are completely wrong because of the very fact that i have the right to proterty. IT IS BECAUSE I HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROPERTY THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE MY CAR. do you see how this works?
 
Wolfmans_BrothEr said:
Are humans born with their own set of values?
Click to expand...

well I would say yes, but I would prefer a word like iinstincts over values. Envirement, culture, etc. have their important roles too. It may be helpful to list some of the 'values' your speaking of so that they may be specifically addressed.
 
schwiftee said:
well I would say yes, but I would prefer a word like iinstincts over values. Envirement, culture, etc. have their important roles too. It may be helpful to list some of the 'values' your speaking of so that they may be specifically addressed.
Click to expand...

Instincts aren't values. If your curious as to what I'm talking about look values up in the dictionary, I'm just speaking about values in general
 
since many values are subjective me looking up a word that I already know isn't going to bring me any closer to what you hold as values. that said, something like murder we may have evolved a disinclination to. so although as you say instincts aren't values - it may be that certain instincts play an important part in what you hold as a value and it may be difficult to separate them when speaking of what is innate or not.
 
^^a person can value their instincts yes but do you think they're born realizing shit I'm grateful i can blink, or do they realize over time that this is something important to them and therefore value it. That's the main question..
 
Roger&Me said:
Nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy.
Click to expand...

Hmm. That makes sense, intuitively. If there were any trait of human psychology that were actually independent of nature (i.e. genetics), then we would share the trait with an earthworm (technically a distant cousin of homo sapiens) raised in the same household and sent to the same schooling, etc. :D Seriously, I'm not joking.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top