Strange and unnerving drug interaction

[EntheoDjinn]

I'm posting this here instead of trip reports or psychedelics/ecstasy boards because it involves both types of substance and seems quite complex. I'm hoping someone here with a knowledge of neurochemistry might be able to hazard a guess at what I've experienced.

First of all, I've taken acid, ecstasy, viagra combos on quite a few occasions over about 10 years with no ill effects. Last year however, about 2 hours into an acid trip (rough guess 450mics) I took half a viagra. Perhaps about 10-15 minutes later I began to have a strange unnerving experience. First of all I was aware of an uncomfortable sensation in my brain - I can only explain it as a type of dark, deep, low frequency hum. Then I felt as if parts of my consciousness were beginning to "drop out" one by one. I also felt a coldness as if in the core of my body. I felt I was going to lose consciousness. It was sinister to say the least - very sinister.

Now in over 30 years of psychedelic use I've never had difficult trip. This was the only time I've felt deeply concerned for my safety. I asked my partner to watch me and make a judgement call about calling for medical help if I passed out or had a seizure. I also felt my temperature rise (or perceived it as rising) and made my way carefully to the shower and sat under a cold stream of water. My heart rate throughout this remain normal for me.

I am aware that it could have been a panic reaction, but I was able to rationalise this and keep calm. I took deep breaths in an effort to prevent the experience from worsening. After about 20 minutes the feelings subsided. I was left curious and unsettled.

I lay down again and about 15 minutes later the same feelings returned, but less intense. I put it down to the viagra perhaps causing a drop in blood pressure in my brain and the acid accentuating what might be sensations that ordinarily are below the threshold of consciousness, or at least not noticed due to everyday distractions.

Not an experience to repeat. I may be daft, but I'm not stupid (to borrow a line from a Python sketch). For the record, I have never had a panic reaction in my life (55 years)

A few months later, as an experiment, I took a small amount of ketamine followed by a quarter viagra (25mg approx). very shortly I began to experience the same brain hum and unpleasant feelings of foreboding. As ketamine is very different to acid I felt that this might be a panic reaction triggered by the dissociative experience (the aforementioned 450mics of acid had me dissociating pleasantly prior to my ingestion of viagra). I quickly vomited up the viagra and the sensations, which were mild compared to the original experience, quickly subsided. Once again, a combo for me to steer clear of in future. I am very disciplined when it comes to drugs and have no problem leaving behind experiences which I feel are hazardous to my health.

Next instalment: 2 months ago I took 150mg of MDMA and then 140mg of viagra over 45 minutes (the first 100mg dose did not work, as it had always done in the past). This is a combo that I have often taken so that my partner and I can enjoy sex at it's best (well, for us anyway). Back came the familiar brain hum and discomfort. Very. very unpleasant. Too much MDMA and too much viagra perhaps.

Last week I took 135mg MDMA and 50mg of viagra. Back came the familiar sensations. Absolutely unpleasant and to be honest extremely worrying. There were very slight tingles in my fingers and twice I felt a cold chill wind blow through my body from right to left. None of the candles in the room flickered!

So my own perspective is that it could be a low intensity panic response conditioned by the original acid trip experience, but this seems counter-intuitive. Of course I would say I don't think it was a panic reaction, as that seems unpalatable to someone who has spent many years getting to know himself and hoping that I've not done too bad a job.

On the other hand it might be something that someone out there recognises as a particularly unpleasant neurological reaction. So I guess that's why I'm posting this. I did take a small dose of acid (150-200mics) and nothing else last month and there were no untoward effects. So I can only see it being either a conditioned response to the viagra or a toxic interaction caused by the viagra. But consistent when taken in conjunction with 3 different substances (acid, K, MDMA)!

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

Entheodjinn

 

[negrogesic]

In the interest of brevity cancan you shortly list the toxicological agents, dose, and nature/severity of unwanted or/unexpected side-effects, interactions....

 

[Albion]

Just out of interest, do any of my following accounts of a particular drug interaction (Methoxetamine + X) strike a chord with what's been happening to you? I can't help but notice certain similarities (particularly the intensely sinister nature of the experiences). I've yet to find any sort of adequate response or explanation.

(1)

I can go into plenty more detail with regards to what actually happened.

I took 100mg 5-APB. Waited for it to kick in and plugged 50mg MXE. This was absolutely awesome. It was a completely lucid journey through my bedroom roof into the universe beyond. Very nice indeed. Under the influence of the MXE I remember dosing another 100mg of 5-APB. I had about 4 hours of unadulterated fun.

However as I started to return to reality, the hallucinations simply got more and more intense (They were of the wobbly-eye, wiggly worm, floating translucent blob variety). These symptoms got gradually worse over the space of about 2 hours. I tried to keep time, but I couldn't read or understand the time on my phone.

My vision was a mess. The intensity of my bedside lamp completely overwhelmed my field of view. Everything turned to a red and purple infra-red camera-style vision.

My brain was making a 'swish-swish-swish-swish' sound, and felt as though it was about to burst.

I felt as though I was filling with air, unbearably 'inflating' far more than capacity allowed.

My heart beat was just a blur. Was beating so, so fast....Faster than it ever should.

Muscles were shaking uncontrollably, whole body tensed up.

I had to keep moving about because every time I laid down, consciousness seemed to slip away. If I stopped moving for even a few seconds, I lost all feeling in my body. As it was, my brain was aching, my face had gone numb, extremities were numb. My vision began to fade, began to look as though I was watching events through a flickering projector. Everything just turned to pot, faculties such as sight, sound, touch were all failing. Naturally I believed I was going to die.

So I continued the cycle of calm breathing, sitting up, sitting down, turning light on, turning light off, so that I wasn't overwhelmed by numbness and blindness. I ought to point out that I became seriously exhausted. I almost gave up. However after 3 hours or so, the effects began to subside. Whatever it was, it felt like it could have been lethal. I'm sure it's enough of an ordeal to put a body into shock, or trigger heart failure.

So dopamine syndrome? Serotonin syndrome? The level of hallucination I had would be on par with high dopamine levels, but I did not become psychotic or paranoid about anything other than my own health. By the 48 hour mark the effects had gone completely, but left me very shaken.

People who have previously combined MXE with 6-APB and 5-APB, you must have been very lucky to not have run into a situation like this. Also this is probably the last time I try out a combo because others recommended it. It is apparent that this is not safe at all.


Hopefully this provides enough information for someone in the know to recognise the symptoms and hazard a guess as to what happened, and how much danger I was really in.

(2)

I took 50mg of MXE yesterday evening. I had been on 5-APB the day before. Everything was normal, only I couldn't get to sleep after no matter what, even well after the effects of the MXE had worn off. I started to get hot flushes running up around my temples along with the occasional shiver. Upon trying to sleep, within seconds of me laying still my face would contort and my tongue would roll back inside of me and prevent me from breathing. I'd come over all pleasurable as this happened. Then one particular bout of this left me seriously struggling to remain conscious. I had to get up, move about, in order to fight this overwhelming feeling of sleepiness. I've been fighting this feeling for a couple of hours now. It's constantly trying to sedate me. If I shut my eyes for one moment the euphoria and drowsiness overwhelms me. My body goes rapidly numb, my tongue rolls back, my face contorts. It feels as though my body is trying to put me in a coma. I feel a lot of pressure around my temples, my brain is also squelching a little. This is very unnerving. The fact that my body is blasting out this euphoria, urging me to go along with it. But it feels so, so wrong. I'm not sure how long this is going to go on for, all I know is that as long as I don't give in, I'm still alive and breathing.

What the hell is happening to me??? It feels as though my own body is trying to lure me into something awful. It's so sinister, my own body has foregone pain and instead chosen to knock me out cold with an irresistible euphoria. Like it's saying 'there there, it'll all be over soon'. Is this something anyone has encountered before?

(3)

I'm feeling much better thankyou.

Unfortunately the exact same thing happened yesterday, a full 3 days after I took the 5-APB and more than a day since the last incident. I just dosed the MXE, and 7 hours later I was struggling to hold it together. 1 solid hour of moving about, massaging my head, trying not to let it build up, or let myself get too panicked. I don't know whether 5-APB has such a long half-life that it was still dangerous, or whether I've developed a dangerous reaction to MXE. I'm never touching either drug again, nor any other for a very, very long time.

There is a definite pattern to this experience though.

First 1-4 hours standard MXE experience. No troubles

Hours 5-6 I return to baseline mentally, but physically weak. Coordination is awful, fingers and extremities become numbed. Vision becomes very wobbly, my eyes slide about as though on ice, unable to keep them on any particular focal point.

Hours 7-10 consciousness slips, rhythmic squelching in head, brain feels as though it is inflating. Hallucinations (vision becomes reminiscent of rain running down a window), colour distortion, detachment from reality. Speech slurred.

Hours 10 + slowly fades away (very slowly).

I go into as much detail as possible based on what I remember. If you feel it's something entirely different, just dismiss this (though if anyone has any thoughts on the interaction I'd love to know).

 

[sekio]

Diagnosis: You're doing psychedelics too much, cut the polypharmacy for a while and forget about it, it sounds like normal bad-trip material/anxiety complex induced by doing too much too often.

 

[EntheoDjinn]

Sekio

I don't do them very often. Acid once every few months, MDMA 8 times per year, Ketamine hardly ever.

This is a very specific experience, very different from anything else I've ever had.

To the other posters, I'll have more time tomorrow, will respond then. Thanks for the replies

E

 

[sekio]

If this happens every time you take Viagra you may not want to take it anymore.

 

[pofacedhoe]

I'm posting this here instead of trip reports or psychedelics/ecstasy boards because it involves both types of substance and seems quite complex. I'm hoping someone here with a knowledge of neurochemistry might be able to hazard a guess at what I've experienced.

First of all, I've taken acid, ecstasy, viagra combos on quite a few occasions over about 10 years with no ill effects. Last year however, about 2 hours into an acid trip (rough guess 450mics) I took half a viagra. Perhaps about 10-15 minutes later I began to have a strange unnerving experience. First of all I was aware of an uncomfortable sensation in my brain - I can only explain it as a type of dark, deep, low frequency hum. Then I felt as if parts of my consciousness were beginning to "drop out" one by one. I also felt a coldness as if in the core of my body. I felt I was going to lose consciousness. It was sinister to say the least - very sinister.

Now in over 30 years of psychedelic use I've never had difficult trip. This was the only time I've felt deeply concerned for my safety. I asked my partner to watch me and make a judgement call about calling for medical help if I passed out or had a seizure. I also felt my temperature rise (or perceived it as rising) and made my way carefully to the shower and sat under a cold stream of water. My heart rate throughout this remain normal for me.

I am aware that it could have been a panic reaction, but I was able to rationalise this and keep calm. I took deep breaths in an effort to prevent the experience from worsening. After about 20 minutes the feelings subsided. I was left curious and unsettled.

I lay down again and about 15 minutes later the same feelings returned, but less intense. I put it down to the viagra perhaps causing a drop in blood pressure in my brain and the acid accentuating what might be sensations that ordinarily are below the threshold of consciousness, or at least not noticed due to everyday distractions.

Not an experience to repeat. I may be daft, but I'm not stupid (to borrow a line from a Python sketch). For the record, I have never had a panic reaction in my life (55 years)

A few months later, as an experiment, I took a small amount of ketamine followed by a quarter viagra (25mg approx). very shortly I began to experience the same brain hum and unpleasant feelings of foreboding. As ketamine is very different to acid I felt that this might be a panic reaction triggered by the dissociative experience (the aforementioned 450mics of acid had me dissociating pleasantly prior to my ingestion of viagra). I quickly vomited up the viagra and the sensations, which were mild compared to the original experience, quickly subsided. Once again, a combo for me to steer clear of in future. I am very disciplined when it comes to drugs and have no problem leaving behind experiences which I feel are hazardous to my health.

Next instalment: 2 months ago I took 150mg of MDMA and then 140mg of viagra over 45 minutes (the first 100mg dose did not work, as it had always done in the past). This is a combo that I have often taken so that my partner and I can enjoy sex at it's best (well, for us anyway). Back came the familiar brain hum and discomfort. Very. very unpleasant. Too much MDMA and too much viagra perhaps.

Last week I took 135mg MDMA and 50mg of viagra. Back came the familiar sensations. Absolutely unpleasant and to be honest extremely worrying. There were very slight tingles in my fingers and twice I felt a cold chill wind blow through my body from right to left. None of the candles in the room flickered!

So my own perspective is that it could be a low intensity panic response conditioned by the original acid trip experience, but this seems counter-intuitive. Of course I would say I don't think it was a panic reaction, as that seems unpalatable to someone who has spent many years getting to know himself and hoping that I've not done too bad a job.

On the other hand it might be something that someone out there recognises as a particularly unpleasant neurological reaction. So I guess that's why I'm posting this. I did take a small dose of acid (150-200mics) and nothing else last month and there were no untoward effects. So I can only see it being either a conditioned response to the viagra or a toxic interaction caused by the viagra. But consistent when taken in conjunction with 3 different substances (acid, K, MDMA)!

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

Entheodjinn

isn't a major side effect of viagra headaches? maybe look on wikipedia as the only time you had this brain hum was when you took viagra

 

[EntheoDjinn]

isn't a major side effect of viagra headaches? maybe look on wikipedia as the only time you had this brain hum was when you took viagra

True. But this is a new development, and none of the substances on their own cause headaches. Plus I wouldn't call this a headache. There's no pain, just a sinister kind of thrumb.

I've experienced lots of sensations on psychedelics over the years, from paranoia onwards, however, this is the only one that actually feels "wrong". This is the only way I can describe it.

Does anyone think that the effect on blood flow created by the viagra could cause a mlld serotonin syndrome effect? I've never been anywhere near a SS, so no prior experience. Anyone here been there?

 

[ColtDan]

i reckon its serotonin related

 

[sekio]

I personally think it's related to the phosphodiesterase-Viagra interaction causing strange things to happen with blood vessels, but that's just me.

Again, perhaps you shouldn't take (so much) Viagra if it's that bad of an experience.

 

[EntheoDjinn]

I personally think it's related to the phosphodiesterase-Viagra interaction causing strange things to happen with blood vessels, but that's just me.

I think that's a definite possibility, but it's the neurophysiological effects (OK, perhaps psychological) concomitants that intrigue me (and worry me as well of course).

Again, perhaps you shouldn't take (so much) Viagra if it's that bad of an experience.

Of course, but only taking small amounts of viagra still creates an adverse effect that has only emerged fairly recently, and under circumstances that are very similar to previous set, setting and dose.

And I will of course consign viagra to my dustbin of history, much as I would a particularly unpleasant research chemical. The are plenty of other experiences, many involving nice drugs, that can fill the gap.

My curiosity persists. I'm sympathetic with Coltdan's suggestion. Maybe some neurochemist who posts here could lend some detail if there's any relevant stuff.

E

 

[webbykevin]

i didnt think viagra was psychedelic, why add it to the mix in the first place ?

 

[FlippingTop]

i didnt think viagra was psychedelic, why add it to the mix in the first place ?

um... 8)

 

[vecktor]

it does sound rather like the kind of things reported before the onset of epileptic convulsions, strange noise with loss of areas of consciousness, not loss of consciousness but loss of some aspects of consciousness, for example loss of colour or complete vision or hearing or body awareness. This has been reported by someone who suffered convulsions on mushrooms, it was described as a strange deep rumble noise a bit like deep pitch static and ripping noise a bit like the ketamine noise moving from up the back of the head and when it hit the top of the head they blacked out, they had a minor siezure at this point.

it may be that something has subtly altered in your brain over time and viagra is acting as a proconvulsant and you are on the very edge of a convulsive event.

Viagra and PDE inhibitors are known to lower the convulsive threshold as do some psychedelics, I don't know whether it is possible to induce or avoid a seizure through mind control perhaps it is and thinking about it is making things worse.

http://astonjournals.com/manuscripts/Vol2010/LSMR-7_Vol2010.pdf

I would suggest if you want to avoid scaring the living shit out of your partner by having a seizure on them your days of viagra and psychedelic combos are over.

As far as I am aware this doesn't have anything to do with serotonin per se rather it is due to the reduction in inhibitory gating and pathways in the brain, once the inhibition breaks down then a wave of chaotic firing occurs giving the classical seizure, and different drugs that lower this inhibition in different ways through different mechanisms can all work together to create a siezure. typical proconvulsants are GABAergic but there are plenty of other mechanisms, like general ion channel and membrane effects.

Shulgin in one of his least well judged self experiments was playing with isoquinonlines which are convulsants and exploring them at higher and higher levels until the levels he got the pre convulsion warning signs. I doubt any benefit was worth the risk.

 

[Hammilton]

Maybe I missed it, but does it happen when you take viagra sans psychedelics?

 

[EntheoDjinn]

it does sound rather like the kind of things reported before the onset of epileptic convulsions........ not loss of consciousness but loss of some aspects of consciousness, for example loss of colour or complete vision or hearing or body awareness.

it may be that something has subtly altered in your brain over time and viagra is acting as a proconvulsant and you are on the very edge of a convulsive event.

Viagra and PDE inhibitors are known to lower the convulsive threshold as do some psychedelics, I don't know whether it is possible to induce or avoid a seizure through mind control perhaps it is and thinking about it is making things worse.

Thanks for such an informative reply Vector. The loss of aspects of consciousness were not sensory - more perceptive, if that makes any sense - as if I was losing "sections" of my awareness (understanding, memory, recognition). They also seemed to be spacial - e.g. my loss of perception seemed to be to the left of the room. The objects I was looking were in sharp focus, but my comprehension of them seemed more lacking than things to my right (left brain/right brain apprehension?). I can't articulate it any better I'm afraid.

I certainly had the impression that if it kept going I was going to going to lose consciousness, so your suggestions about being very close to a seizure do gel with my own thoughts. The interesting (disturbing) thing about the feeling of losing consciousness is that there was no "fuzzing" or "dimming" of my awareness. My thinking was clear, coherent and rational, and the "losses" were stark and indescribable. The feelings of dysphoria were very psychological and paralleled the brain deep buzzing. I've dissociated before on Salvia and other substances, but always "to another place" (i.e. my imagination). This had none of the hallmarks of psychedelic dissociation. I've experienced sheer terror dissociating with Salvia and sheer bliss dissociating with LSD and Ketamine, and many states in between. And always ended up laughing. This was completely unlike anything.

.........I would suggest if you want to avoid scaring the living shit out of your partner by having a seizure on them your days of viagra and psychedelic combos are over......

They are. This is an existential post-mortem

Many thanks for the journal link

To Hammilton

I've used psychedelics for 35+ years and nothing remotely like this has ever occurred before. Even latterly with LSD (and Ketamine, although only a minor psychedelic for me) this has not even slightly occurred.

And lastly for Webbykeven.......... I understand your question. The first time it occurred I had taken approx 450ug acid (a rough guess obviously, but a fairly reasonable amount for quiet Friday night indoors with my partner). We were both totally scattered and incapable of even standing up. There were two ways in which I couldn't stand up, and having enjoyed combos of E,V, & K without any ill-effects, I thought sex might be amazing on such a pleasant dose of acid. Fortunately my partner is very wise and even on the same dose as me managed to keep her cool, which helped me enormously. The viagra only made me enormously concerned, rather than enormously virile. And no, it isn't in the slightest psychedelic. Maybe more Egodelic. And not particularly pleasant on it's own (I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but for me it leaves a sort of chemically dirty feeling the next day. Nothing pronounced, but noticable).

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated.

E

 

[Hammilton]

No, you got my question backwards. Does this happen if you take viagra without LSD, not lsd without viagra.

 

[EntheoDjinn]

No, you got my question backwards. Does this happen if you take viagra without LSD, not lsd without viagra.

Sorry about that. No, only when combined.

I have only used Viagra on it's own a couple of times, and no untoward effects at all. It's definitely a combo thing



Vector, I wonder if you'd consider moving this to LSR to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar. It seems that the people who use this forum haven't encountered this reaction (I accept it may only be me, but I would have thought given the substance experience folks here on BL have, that at least someone might have had an "untoward" reaction if not something similar). Curiouser and curiouser.

E

 

[EntheoDjinn]

Just out of interest, do any of my following accounts of a particular drug interaction (Methoxetamine + X) strike a chord with what's been happening to you? I can't help but notice certain similarities (particularly the intensely sinister nature of the experiences). I've yet to find any sort of adequate response or explanation....................

Sorry to take so long to get back. No. Nothing there seems similar. It could of course be the language we are using to describe it, but I think you're pretty clear and I feel my symptoms were quite different.

I aim to try MXE soon, so I hope it isn't or it will just be a one-off

 

[OhSeeAT]

Klonopin is a great drug that combats convulsions. Perhaps consider this, if you want to continue to take part in psychedelic experiences that may or may not involve Viagra. Best of Luck to You!