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Pharmacological options in the treatment of addiction

Thats a pretty pessimistic outlook man. I cannot accept those things as true, because if so then im resigning myself to a world I do not want to live in. If those things are true, than mankind cannot and will not go anywhere as a species. And i refuse to accept that humanity cannot go anywhere.
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Really? If mankind is naturally violent we can't go anywhere as a species? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yep, we're living in caves hunting deer and rabbits with sticks.

Humanity has already gone further than any other species to evolve. For fucks sake, I'm using abstract symbols to represent a message which I'm typing on a laptop which will transmit wirelessly to a router which will then send it anywhere in the world within a minute or two! I have next to me a Nook which weighs less than a pound and allows me to carry thousands of books, and to download virtually any book I want whenever I want. If I want some noise while I'm reading, it'll play whatever music I want to hear.

Humans are by nature violent. It's hard to find a creature that isn't in some way. We owe a great deal of our success to our violence. Could we live without it now? Probably. Will we? No. Fighting nature rarely works.

Trying to overcome our violent natures individually is a worthwhile thing to do. Having society push against it's violent tendencies is beneficial too. Trying to eradicate violence? A pointless endeavor. We punish those who violate another, but we can't literally end all violence any more than we can literally achieve a drug free America.
 
oh come on dude, the pretty obviously underlying intention of negrogesics posts was justifying individual violence via "natural violent tendencies" which you obviously don't agree with.

and there's simply no excuse for punching a bitch in the face after being called a name (even then, not one of the most offensive names you could be called... "junkie?")

i mean, maybe if you're in kindgergarten it seems justifiable to hurt someone physically who called you a "bad name." Or, maybe if you're a junkie? 8)
 
You can change the players but you can't change the game... :D

Lets get on with the discussion though. I'm interested in psychedelic drug therapy..

What is really in play here. Do you guys believe it is connected with certain 'receptor resets' or is is mostly a psychological thing? Can a (bad) psychedelic experience actually excacerbate abuse?..
 
I dont think psychedelic experiences can do much about drug abuse, atleast nothing more then taking a good look at yourself.
 
Hey, i was not saying i was "right" in hitting that bitch, i would never strike a woman in normal conditions. Sure I did something wrong, i can see it. But given the circumstances i do not regret it.

And like it or not, we are animals, and rather violent ones at that. As i age I become less prone to violence, but as an alpha male I occasionally run into individuals who want to test me. Having been in many fights, i can sense when someone is about to strike, so I have learned a very simple thing; if someone is going to strike me, i strike first, and i take great care to not hit areas that would result in severe injury or fatalities. If the person inciting the fight is a kid or is too small/weak to hurt me, i do not strike, i just block or even take the blow (my nose has been broken so many times it doesn't matter), then grab and supress them into submission. If the guy is my size or bigger, i will not risk getting my teeth knocked out or breaking a jaw, so i strike first, in a couple areas i will not disclose, that almost always leave the person either unconscious or neutralized. I am sworn to do no harm, so i do my best to avoid this at all costs. I have many firearms of all types, but i keep one of my shotguns loaded with rubber 00 pellets, in the event my home is broken into etc. Point is, i have no desire to kill or injure, but if someone points a gun at me, i will not put a flower in the barrel.

Man is by nature violent, our civilization has been built on the blood of others. To think that "man" is some unique animal that can eventually taught to all hold hands in harmony is delusional and ultimately, this is vanity at its highest. Simplified, we are basically primates who somewhere along the line apparently ate some fish/omegas/proteins and developed a more complex brain.

My real point in telling that story about clocking the nurse was to emphasize the fact that addicts or ex-addicts need not classify themselves; i find it rather silly to go to meetings all the time to stand up and announce that "I am an addict". I can't speak for stimulant addict, but having been through opoiod and depressant addiction. If one has the self-control to self detox from these, i see no reason on constantly reminding myself that i was addicted to said compound. And if you need or want to" talk" to someone about it, hire an impartial professional to discuss it, as opposed to some chain smoking self-righteous ex-alcoholic who has been clean for 14 years and 96 days. Again, in the DATA waiver suboxone test material, they specifically recommend against NA/AA, because they do not consider a patient maintained on bupe or methadone as "clean".

Again if it somehow works for you and improves life quality, that is good. But not only in my opinion and first-hand experience, the APA and other medical associations are very clear in that 12 step programs are not recommended for maintenance patients.
 
Firstly, I just want to say its a little unfair to target one specific line of my post when I contributed (what I feel) is some great knowledge on the topic of the original post: that is pharmacological options for treating addiction. I wrote quite a long post about how I feel sub/methadone and Medication Assisted Treatment is the way to go. I also wrote that 12 step is a useful tool as well, but I feel MAT is way better, although both together is probably the strongest front you could put on to fight addiction.

Some questions I have: What "other medical associations" are against 12 step programs in conjuncture with maintenance programs?

That sounds very counter productive, since most maintenance programs recommend you undergo some sort of therapy, group or otherwise. NA meetings could definitely fall under this "realm".

Why would you forgo another tool to assist in recovery? Can you show me any data that shows that "medical associations" are against 12 step programs in combination?

Can I get some info on your claims? I'd honestly love to see it (seriously, no sarcasm at all i'm being 100% genuine), because I'd love to see how these professional medical groups can reason something so retarded from my point of view that it makes me scratch my head. To not have an opinion one way or the other regarding 12 step programs is one thing, to discourage their use? Sounds very iffy to me at best and I would love to hear what these groups use as "logic" to back these claims.

Also, off topic again, but, to your other point: the fact that we built civilization, and are able to sit around and have discussions and debate instead of resorting to violence has proved that we are able to quell these instincts and move on past our violent nature :) The fact that we can sit in rooms and discuss opposing ideas and beliefs instead of resorting to smashing the other persons head into a rock shows this. If you believe in that then theres no real point to civilization and existence, is there?
Very bleak outlook, in particular for someone who wants to better their life and get treatment. I can no longer believe in all of that pessimism. Call it vanity, call it ignorance, call it what you want, but these beliefs are long gone from my brain because then well the world is an awful place that I dont want to be a part of. If you wanna break us down to our animalistic evolutions, thats fine, but just remember we did EVOLVE at some point and are capable of more.

Being idealistic is not a bad thing. Its a great thing. Its something to strive for. Otherwise, what the fuck are you reaching for?

Just as people strive for perfection (yet rarely achieve it) is a goal at least (and despite the rarity, achievable!) we can strive to be the "perfection of humanity." Just as people strive for sobriety, so can we strive for bettering our world. Theyre both goals. You work every day at all of these things, its not just some magic button.

If you honestly think that we are all just animals and there is no point to conscious thought having arisen and the human spirit and soul and that we're just another slab of meat being controlled by violent animalistic impulses....then im truly sorry for you, plain and simple.
You cannot convince me this is true. I used to believe it...but then I saw that we are capable of much more by simply looking around at the marvels of humanitys accomplishments when we come together. Just look around you for evidence.

Look at this forum, where we are all coming together to help one another, people we dont even know, help save their own lives and battle addiction.

Sorry, we really gotta take that discussion elsewhere IMO. Mods feel free to chop away the irrelevant discussion

Now I've back on topic: Sobriety-> addiction! This time i'll promise I wont stray. I promise!
 
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negrogesic said:
Yes these are only tools. The real question is a reflective one. I do not like referring to addiction as a "disease".....it is a behavioral issue that virtually all humans (and primates!) possess.
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What do you think of addiction as "disease" in a very strict context of acute withdrawals? I've always seen it as a disease - self-inflicted, sure - but a disease, for the reasons DoommooD says here:

DooMMooD said:
Opioid dependency is not some short term thing that can be overcome IMHO: it is I believe, a lifelong, permanent change to your neurobiological functioning, and as such would require lifelong treatment.

Your brain pathways do not just "go back to normal" once you get clean. It takes months upon months, years upon years, for your brain to get even close to normal again. And throwing away medicines that allow you to do things and live your life free from these burdens of addiction...
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I agree w/ you in general here, but kind of take issue w/ the general notion of "return to normal". I'll admit I'm guilty of having (previously) used such language.
Does "normal" = "before I touched opiates"? "Where I would have been w/o opiates"?
The brain's wiring will change *regardless* of how you live. Once you've been on something long enough, that's part of what's happened in your brain, there's no "undoing" it. However, if "heroin addiction" is what happened in your brain, clearly it's a very significant change, perhaps even the antithesis to a 4+ trip.
(it almost seems as if you agree with that, based on:
DooMMooD said:
The changing of pathways though is why i find ibogaine (and other drugs such as LSD, mushrooms, etc) a very interesting, novel, wonderful, and possibly (semi-)permanent treatments.
Long term studies must be assessed but the fact that these drugs "rewire" your brain and pathways in a way much as they have been "rewired" in the past by drug abuse. Not saying that everytime you trip is gonna cure you, but it is possible.
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Could this not be seen as a VERY intense psychological experience "rewiring" a less-intense, but still relatively strong (relative to endogeneous "rewards") experience of active addiction? If so, then there's really no "normal" to aim for, just "better". (which is the ONLY reason I cannot fully condemn AA/NA and/or religious approaches)




DooMMooD said:
The maintenance medications remove the "crave", which most feel is the ultimate problem regarding addiction: the crave and inability to control it. The fact that the addict screams that they want to be clean, and yells for help, but cannot treat it on their own, proves this to be oneproblem where addiction is concerned.
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This is another thing I've moved my 'mental goalposts' a little on. I do NOT believe the user cannot control, and do NOT believe they want to be clean. Consuming something is a statement of choice, nothing more. In the case of addiction, it's a HARD AS SHIT choice, but it's still a choice. Exogeneous substances do not ingest themselves :\
I see continuing usage as, perhaps, one of the toughest choices one may ever have to make*, but choosing to continue usage is still choice, so desire to use outweighs desire to be clean, and (as said) "inability to control" is shaky since it's compulsory choice.
(*I'm late 20's so am not in much position to talk of "choices ever made" in life)


DooMMooD said:
Once this is treated (which bupe/methadone do) well the person is much better off, although this is not the only thing. However, this makes bupe/done very effective tools in treatment; to target addiction at its core...well you'd have to be crazy to pass up that tool in saving your life.
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Are you referring to using it for detox/taper or for maintenance?
(fully agree with 3234342343er's post, that m'done/subbies are just a new, albeit generally safer, addiction. If you meant for tapering off to deal w/ withdrawals, then I think we're all in agreement ;P )



Oh, and
- the nurse-slap story made my morning. I know that doesn't make it "right" or "okay".
- humans are beasts and WILL evolve despite our nature. (and on that subject, aiming for "idealistic living" is no great/noble way of living imo, "realistic living" is always gonna win ;PP )
 
<<MeDieVel - this whole idea of the brain "resetting / back to normal" is what I was referring to in another one of your general "withdrawal/NMDA/addiction" threads, when I had referred to it as "how long until the brain is rewired" ;P >>
 
I think ibogaine is the only pharmaceutical capable of COMPLETELY resetting the brain, and i believe its rubbish it has anything to do with the psychedelic experience.

Currently ive got:
NAC
Gabapentin
Baclofen
Acamprosate
Wellbutrin

Coming up:
Oxcarbazepine
Ibogaine

Well see how it affects my stim binges.
 
I'm also not gonna try one bit to control my use but let the pharmaceuticals do it, loads of ppl take amp in low ammounts that produce hypomania without any efford to control there use, i beleive its all about the brain, so to test my theory i'm not gonna try anything but let the meds do their work.

Wishfull thinking? Maybe, but who cares if it is then i'm gonna get high!
 
I think treating addiction requires a certain increase in the levels of self awareness & changes in value judgements. These in some cases I believe could be achieved by circumspect use of psychedelics & psychotherapy ( Al Hubbard in Canada is something to google if you wish to seek some information on the subject). I'm uncertain how reliable results would be using drugs off the list provided in the op, I'd imagine less so than with the method & tools I've briefly outlined.
I'm not sure that "treating addiction" was clearly defined - for me it would consist of the patient not wanting to use drugs on a regular basis - what would qualify as regular is a moot point, but hopefully you catch my drift.
Damn the fools for their blanket bans and five lever locked minds
 
Re memantine:

MeDieViL said:
I think its time to start writing guides about this regime with experiences in all relevant forums such as the mdma forum, to get this thing really going.
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(13th or 14th page of this thread you had up)

I figured you pushing to write guides about the memantine experiment was implying you'd done it/had results.
 
That is only with regards to tolerance, in my case tolerance has been beaten, but that doesnt mean you cant be addicted to a substance, tolerance is the major issue of addiction tough.

In my case i cant take my ADHD medication as prescribed, i only binge on it, no tolerance tough but that doesnt mean i no longer have any issues with a substance.
 
Today i'm on 3x 60 mg DXM, 600mg NAC, 50mg Baclofen, 800mg x3 Gabapentin, 450 mg wellbutrin, 50 mg amislulpiride and GBL.
Ive just got 10 gram of street amphetamine, i'm capping it and then take my caps and see how many i need wich would be equavalent to 10mg of dextroamphetamine.

I think my anti addiction regime is working, i feel no urge AT ALL to keep on redosing and feel satisfied on my current amphetamine dose, wich appears to be 2 caps. Lets see how the future goes, but im positive. I cant beleive i feel satisfied and dont want to get higher.

And i cant beleive it i feel a urge to get the things done i need to get done!!!

I feel some hypomania and i know taking more will make me higher but i see no need to absolutely at all, this is amazing.

Its still to early to tell, but maybe my theory was right that addiction is all in the brain and has NOTHING to do with behavor, yes ppl like high's but addiction is a differend beast.
 
I'm doing no efford whatsoever to try and not take me more amp, just dont give a fuck at all, fuck the behaveral theory of addiction.
 
MeDieViL said:
I'm doing no efford whatsoever to try and not take me more amp, just dont give a fuck at all, fuck the behaveral theory of addiction.
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You tell 'em!!!! It's definitely not a behavioral issue, no no no!!! It's simply a lack of balancing your <addictive> drug of choice with another chemical! This could be a revolution!!
/ ;P
 
Its quite amazing i was on my amp dose slightly high with more amp next to me but i didnt want it, it wasnt like i wanted it and it was easier to say no, i just DIDNT WANT it.

Lets just say its a behaveral issue depending on your brain neurochemistry, but i believe its all in the brain.
 
You have to remember how much the "placebo effect" can play into such things, but either way it IS a behavioral issue. To say it's a behavioral issue depending on brain neurochemistry is almost redundant tho, isn't it? Behavior is entirely dependent upon neurochemical factors.
 
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