What if i were to say that the sun doesn't exist, would it be you to have to prove it does or me to prove it doesn't? We've both made a claim that isn't accepted either way.. I think we should both have to come up with evidence to support our theories. Either way I think we've established you can't 100% prove either one of our theories either way.. even with brain scans and studies done there are alot of variables that need to be taken into account..
I have been using studies to help support my theory on change of affects.. but to me the biggest piece of evidence is the mass of anecdotal reports to suggest that it happens.
Ricko, I've provided you with more than enough information.
Your monkey study deals with INJECTING 5mg per kg (about 290mg for a 130lb human) TWICE a day for 4 days. Forget the fact that this is not how most people dose MDMA, posting a study that found if a 130lb monkey was injected with over a half gram of pure MDMA daily for 4 days it would show a partial recovery is hardly a case for your "magic loss", especially after considering that a human brain is likely far more resilient. Did you inject over 2 grams of MDMA in 4 days? Is that how you lost your "magic"?
Your other link is one persons assesment of a study that has no citations any more recent than 11 years ago... How is this relevant? You found someone with an opinion on a study? Okay?
Your monkey study is 20 years old. You have discredited studies I have posted that have newer, contrasting results, with what authority? You're going to go with the 20 year old study that injects monkeys with heinous amounts of MDMA over one that deals with humans who consumed 800 pills over the course of their lifetime... why? You look at
this in reference to that study and tell me it means nothing... how? I simply don't understand.
This was kinda my point (somewhere in the thread). People are perfectly capable of taking such large amounts in short spaces of time. All the studies done don't mention to what degree the subject abused MDMA.. it may have been a double dose every few months for all we know? And i'll be honest.. I probably have taken around those doses for those time periods.. but then i'd have done MDMA the weekend before that, the weekend before that, the weekend before that, the weekend before that, etc.. Yes I was dumb.. I abused the fuck out of MDMA.. but I'm definitely not the only one.
Also, losing the "magic" may not even be down to neurotoxicity caused by MDMA.. Again I was using studies to suggest neurotoxicity to help support my claim not to prove anything either way.. Maybe there was amphetamine aswell as MDMA in the pills that I and 100000000s of other people get and this caused an increased neurotoxic response? It might be that some users will miss a nights sleep every week or so.. maybe this adds to (or even
is) the factor to cause long term changes? Maybe some people's personal wiring makes them more susceptible? Maybe we're looking in the wrong place? The "magic" may have nothing to do with 5-ht.. maybe oxytocin? Maybe the brain scans aren't strong enough? Maybe baby?
Point is.. you can't discredit the mass of anecdotal evidence to suggest a long term change in affects because there may or may not be any physical evidence YET.
Looking at your bar chart.. it's clear there are slightly lower densitys of SERT in former ecstasy users than there are in non users.. Kinda supporting my theory here?
Just below the bar chart it says:
Researchers aren't absolutely sure what these results mean. Some people think this 'recovery' could be the result of surviving axons growing or changing (producing more SERTs) to compensate for destroyed axons. Others argue that the short-term reduction in SERT density might not have been due to lost axons, but could be the result of the neurons simply changing the number of SERTs in response to drug exposure.
Your German Study you quoted a couple pages back used 14 men, and 15 women for the former ecstasy users group.. Hardly a large group? Again, alot of variables we don't know about need to be taken into account. From that study:
Current ecstasy users had the lowest
>DVRs, and polydrug-user controls had the highest binding ratios, while
>former ecstasy users and non-drug user controls had similar binding
>ratios. Statistically different DVRs were found in mesencephalon, caudate
>and thalamus, but not in putamen or white matter. Current ecstasy users
>had a lower mesencephalon DVR than polydrug user-user controls, and lower
>thalamus DVR than polydrug-user and non-drug user controls. Standardized
>uptake values in all regions were highest in non-drug user controls,
>smallest in former ecstasy users, and very similar in current ecstasy users
>and polydrug-user controls. However, the only statistically significant
>differences in SUVS were in white matter, considered a control or
>non-serotonergic area.
So there were some differences found, then?
Your link to the study: Reversibility of ecstasy-induced reduction in serotonin transporter availability in polydrug ecstasy users states only that SERT densitys did start growing back.. it doesn't say wether or not it was a full recovery.
Also it seems to be general consensus that when 5-ht axons do grow back, they do not grow back to their original state / form.. only that they do grow back to some degree. The brain is a very complex thing.. just a few alterations in it's neuronal pathways can make a big difference to the person..
I'll admit "magic" threads kinda annoy me.. 
