The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[jamaica0535]

3 regular hits probably isn't going to get you there without meditation.

3 hits on a different level, or maybe like 10-15 average ones will probably do it though.

DMT is good for it as well.

Ketamine is good too.

LSD + Ketamine = Death being the only way you can rationalize what is happening in this space your in.... No control, your simply along for the ride.

At the point of ego death, your not really "there" with any sort of tangible physical form, you simply are. Given that there isn't a body for your soul to use as a vehicle, it has seemed pretty typical in my experience to simply be along for the ride at that point.

I think the easiest way to reach the edge would probably be to drop a few hits of strong acid, and simply do an amount of ketamine that would put you in a hole or bump until you can no longer. Its not fun, and you will probably think you died... Its intense, uncontrollably so. Just along for this ride. Be laying in your bed, have a sitter or do it with someone if you know someone that will take it that far.

Coming out of a k-hole is kind of strange, there is that sense of confusion of not immediately knowing where you are, why everything is crazy, or that ongoing noise of wahwahwahwah. And quite honestly, my best ketamine experiences have been those with some friends i am close and comfortable with k-holing in a cuddle puddle with each other. Its kind of nice to come back from that sort of experience with someone scratching your head and arms hugged around you. At first your not immediately aware of where you are or who is around you, but its comfortable and warm.

If i was going to journey into death again, i would want company to cuddle with along the ride.

 

[Ismene]

He was a genius of the highest order and that book should be the new Bible of the 21st century!

Didn't do Alan Watts himself any good did it - seeing as he ended up a hopeless pisshead who drank himself to a miserable death. I remember reading how his kids would beg him to stop knocking back the whiskey and he couldn't.

 

[Toast to the Spirits]

Crazy. I thought I had never experienced ego loss, but now I realize I've experienced it more times than I can count while on high doses of ketamine.

 

[HHazard20]

The most fantastic thing ego loss has done for me is the removal of the fear of death.

I think this sentence exemplifies the idea of ego-loss. you become disconnected to the inevitable biases one has that connects one's physical self to their spiritual self they this lets the user perceive reality in a much more "true" way. "you" become a point of awareness that has no concern with reality as it pertains to one's self, one's "life". you get to be "on the outside, looking in", and thus see things how they really are, as if you were not in the equation.

do not confuse this with supposed claims of out of body experiences, you are still "in" your body, you just loose all your "ego baggage."

 

[HHazard20]

The most fantastic thing ego loss has done for me is the removal of the fear of death.

I think this sentence exemplifies the idea of ego-loss. you become disconnected to the inevitable biases one has that connects one's physical self to their spiritual self they this lets the user perceive reality in a much more "true" way. "you" become a point of awareness that has no concern with reality as it pertains to one's self, one's "life". you get to be "on the outside, looking in", and thus see things how they really are, as if you were not in the equation.

do not confuse this with supposed claims of out of body experiences, you are still "in" your body, you just loose all your "ego baggage."

 

[villian]

do not confuse this with supposed claims of out of body experiences, you are still "in" your body, you just loose all your "ego baggage."

while still physically in my body (obviously) I had no idea I was a person who had a body.. in my opinion if you are still aware you are a human looking out of a pair of eyes having an experience you are still in ego.

 

[Shambles]

I would tend to agree, Villian. My definition of ego-death seems to be broadly similar to yours and with similar experience of it too. I also had no body to be aware of - no "I" to be aware of for that matter - other than the literal one I didn't need to leave behind cos I never knew I had one. Nor did anybody else cos there was no anybody else - everything was pure enerhy with no differentiation. I was unaware of the concept of bodies (or "I") at the time to know such things existed. I know I've said it several times now, but I was the universe. Not I felt like the universe - it was me and I was it. Had no knowledge of any aspect of individuality whatsoever in any form. When I came back I interpreted that "other place/state" as being the fabric of reality itself. That was "me" but was not me. This is why I don't think it's possible to be unsure whether it has happened to you or not - it's not often you spend time not existing as anything other than the energy of everything so is kinda memorable :D

 

[Raw Evil]

Didn't do Alan Watts himself any good did it - seeing as he ended up a hopeless pisshead who drank himself to a miserable death. I remember reading how his kids would beg him to stop knocking back the whiskey and he couldn't.

How very ad hominem of you. If you think his ideas are invalid, how about you argue against the ideas, and not the man's lifestyle? Sheesh.

All through this thread, it seems that you've failed to grasp one simple concept: when people talk about ego death, they're talking about their experiences, not yours.

Your knowledge of their experience is necessarily limited to what you understand of the mind, which as it appears is limited to the shallow conclusions of modern neuroscience. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but please consider that it is possible to grasp concepts like ego dissolution without understanding the precise mechanics behind it. A computer programmer does not need to know the workings of the processor, so long as the language allows him to enter commands like A = B+2, and the processor makes that mathematical statement happen. Similarly, we don't pretend to understand HOW an experience like ego dissolution occurs, just that we know what went on conceptually inside the mind.

Would you argue that the numbers represented by ones and zeroes inside a computer are a delusion? As the great Bender himself was once reminded: "there's no such thing as 2".

 

[DwayneHoover]

Didn't do Alan Watts himself any good did it - seeing as he ended up a hopeless pisshead who drank himself to a miserable death. I remember reading how his kids would beg him to stop knocking back the whiskey and he couldn't.

Whats the f-in point of that remark? He was a fallible human who had a now known to be hereditary disease, a predisposition to a physical addiction to alcohol, in a day with no knowledge of this and very unsophisticated treatment techniques.

So what? Are you saying an addiction negates everything he wrote? If that were true you would have us throwing half the world's great literature and art on the bonfire. That comment is an utterly worthless, shallow, vapid, meaningless attempt to distract from a point someone is making by misdirecting attention onto personal problems of the message carrier.

Such a cruel remark that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO relevance to to what he accomplished in that and other books. Did you read "The Book"? Try commenting on the content. Look it up in the review literature, nearly universal very high marks.

Wow, this really highlights your apparent intentions to deliberately miss the point as much as possible. What a misanthrope. I'm really leaning toward seeing you as nothing but a "Nattering Nabob of Negativity," haha. Well whatever, if that's what turns your crank. Folks gonna start calling you "IsMean" if yer not carefull, hehe.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&biw=11...=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=c27231f674954267

 

[villian]

Shambles do you think everyone who undergoes ego death has a similar experience? I'm beginning to think so. After all the only thing separating us is the ego, so logically when you shed the ego it should be the same.. The reason I'm asking this is because I've read pretty much every ego death thread on the internet since it happened to me, and when I read some reports I'm like "that guy gets it."

This is a report from another forum..

One night I sat in meditation with mushrooms and pushed the limits of how deep I could go. I began with a steady focus on performing kriya pranayama. Slow controlled breathing on the inhale and exhale almost twice as long. On the inhale breath you visualize light rising from the base of the spine up to the third eye. On the exhale I imagined the light going the other way. Mushrooms were awesome for boosting this visualizing.

Soon my mind started becoming exceptional clear for a shroom trip. The visions started behaving completely under my control. At this point I decided to quit with the breathing exercises and completely immerse my mind in the light that causes the visions. I simply becan uttering the phrase, "What am I". I did it slow and methodical. I wasn't just chanting blindly. I was sincerely asking for anything to show my something.

As the questions was repeated the visions stopped at what appeared to be a large temple door. I refer to this place as the temple of the mind. I've been here twice. On the occasion In question I then repeated the question again and the door and all visions stopped. It was total blackness. All feeling in my body was completely gone. I then asked the question again. The dark turned into white. This is very much like the clear light described in the Tibetan book of the dead and Timothy Leary and gang. I then asked the question again with a level of intensity that I had not the previous times.

What happened next has completely and profoundly changed me. I became this light. In the blink of an instant I became everything that was, has been, or ever will be. I was the alpha and the omega. Time was irrelevant. When I came out of this state over an hour had passed. the only thing from this state I remember was complete and total bliss...and a white light so intense that I could not exists out side of it.

I'm just curious about your opinion because you are one of the ones who "get it"..

I feel this is a truly rare state that unfortunately most will never experience during their human lifetime, and I agree completely with you that after it happens there is really no way to be unsure about it.. it is about as absolute as anything can possibly be.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Alan Watts, etc. is a "waste of life" because he had an addiction? pontifex01, I guess that goes to show where you are coming from. What excessive and cruel judgementalism! If this werent a harm reduction site your nasty remarks would have me saying things I shouldnt so I bite my tongue. Ow.

Saying people who have an addiction are a "waste of life" is antithetical to everything that Bluelight is about. So why are you here?

 

[villian]

The shit thing about this, of course, is that this realisation is only pertinent to a "sentient" me; once I am dead, because there is Nothing left, then that realisation itself will have been completely worthless - and intuitively, for some reason, the concept of being as unaware of existence as a rock, fills me with profound terror.

I don't think when you die there is nothing left.. you are still apart of everything..

Regarding what you would say, therefore, I reapply Ismene's criticism of ego-loss: If when we die we are not sentient, in Any way whatsoever (while when we're tripping we are, because otherwise we would have No recollection of ego loss), then what makes you think that there is any "state" to return to once we die?
For there to be any sort of "state", there has to be Some form of consciousness behind it to process it, to be aware of it.

It seems to me that the cosmic consciousness one becomes apart of during ego death exists outside of the body, it has always existed and always will exist as pure energy. This is just my personal feeling from experiencing it but it definitely appears to be eternal. Since this energy is eternal and encompasses literally everything in the universe logic follows that once you die you are back into this energy. Is pure energy aware it is pure energy? It felt like this energy was pure awareness so I'd yes..

As someone wisely said above, there is a difference between fact and opinion. Just because you see a white light and God talking to you, doesn't mean you're actually "understanding" anything real. I'd go so far as to say you're Just Tripping.

Seems my opinion is just as valid as yours. How can you judge an experience you have never had?

If this was simply my experience I would be a bit more weary of it. The fact is though many people have had very similar experiences and are changed for life because of them.. Who are you to say everyone who has had this happen to them (with our without drugs) are having an invalid experience?

Your opinion is not fact either my friend

 

[Shambles]

^ I think you are right that the experience is the same for all who "get it". I am always dubious of those who speak of fear, confusion and especially talk of freaky beahaviour that concerns them during their "ego-death" experience. It just makes zero sense to me. I am also always doubtful when people talk of having had the experience many multiples of times cos I also agree that it is a seriously rare occurence to experience it fully. Just doesn't "feel" right that it gets dished out so simply as taking fuckloads of drugs and getting wasted. If it were so simple then everybody here in Swirlsville would be totally familiar and at home there. The fact so many seem to be talking about heavy tripping rather than what I consider true ego-loss just doesn't fit with any aspect of it for me. Again, just my opinion, folks. Don't wish to be sounding all superior and all-knowing like I/we know something you don't. Just personal experience and belief is all

Shambles it interests me that you say this, because I also have a "morbid fear of death" that comes and goes (it's mostly gone thankfully). However, when talking to a councillor (mandatory, and total wank, as is psychoanalysis in general IME), he suggested that perhaps my fear of death was due to my fear of my "self" ceasing to exist.
I've mulled over it for a couple of years and the closest I can come to conciliation with the concept of non-existence (and therefore of the complete uselessness of life) is to take a pantheistic approach; I was once part of everything else, my consciousness separates me from the "One-ness" of the Universe/whatever it is we inhabit, and death will simply return "me" to that Oneness.

The shit thing about this, of course, is that this realisation is only pertinent to a "sentient" me; once I am dead, because there is Nothing left, then that realisation itself will have been completely worthless - and intuitively, for some reason, the concept of being as unaware of existence as a rock, fills me with profound terror.

Regarding what you would say, therefore, I reapply Ismene's criticism of ego-loss: If when we die we are not sentient, in Any way whatsoever (while when we're tripping we are, because otherwise we would have No recollection of ego loss), then what makes you think that there is any "state" to return to once we die?
For there to be any sort of "state", there has to be Some form of consciousness behind it to process it, to be aware of it.
Not trying to knock holes into your acceptance of death (which I envy), just genuinely curious because maybe I'm missing something.


PS: On an unrelated note, I violently shit in the face of anybody who waves these bollocks psychedelic-fuelled pseudo-Bibles, claiming to "Knowledge" and "Understanding" without referring to anything specific other than "sense of X" or "realisation of Y". McKenna, Leary, Watts and all those other wankers can fuck off and die.
Reality will smash you in the face whether you're a flower child or a coke-headed investment banker, and no illumination from above is going to come to the rescue when you push things too far and end up with HPPD or schizophrenia because you've "spoken to God" too many times. Or, like Watts, as Ismene pointed out, a fucking waste of life.

As someone wisely said above, there is a difference between fact and opinion. Just because you see a white light and God talking to you, doesn't mean you're actually "understanding" anything real. I'd go so far as to say you're Just Tripping.

This is were the impossibility of trying to explain that state in words comes in... there is no ego - no "I" to have consciousness but you are certainly not lacking consciousness. It's just a totally alien form of consciousness. At risk of riling folk with psychoanlytic psychobabble, Jung's Universal Mind concept leaps to my standard mind as maybe a way of thinking about it. It's kinda like a supercharged consciousness. There is a form of individuality left but it exists as a part of the ebb and flow of a far wider, all-encompassing consciousness. Very hard to express it in language cos there is no language there. I suspect that if God exists then it is precisely the way his mind works and we are just fractional distillations of that ubermind in life and return to being fully-fledged partners in it whenever not alive.

Sorry for the psychobabble but really is so hard to try to get across quite what it is like unless you Know. I would suggest your counsellor has it sort of right - fear of losing the sense of self is frightening, once lost there is nothing but bliss left. Nothing to fear cos fear is another concept that is only a part of standard conscousness, I'd say

 

[villian]

I've experienced ego loss twice and know how it feels, and yes, it's impossible to describe (so admittedly there's a chance either you or I were just "really really fucked" at the time and just thinkwe were "there"). But that's not what I'm asking about.

I'm asking you what about ego loss makes you believe that there can be a conscious state beyond death? If you injected LSD into a rock, or a corpse, it probably wouldn't experience ego loss, because there's no brain in the first place to process the experience.

You aren't yourself when ego dies, you become everything.. since you are able to have this feeling of not being a human but being everything during ego death, why wouldn't you be able to have it when dead? Your body has no place in an ego death experience, so it doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for cosmic consciousness.

So if when you die you're just a pile of rotting flesh, and no more, then how can that pile of rotting flesh feel at one with the Universe?

Because you are the universe.. how can you not feel like the universe when you are the universe? With death comes the end of ego, and with the end of ego comes the cosmic consciousness (obviously only an opinion)

 

[villian]

I hope you find what you are looking for my friend.

 

[Shambles]

I think this:

You forget a body Does have a place in an ego death experience, because your BODY is the one that is doing the EXPERIENCING. Ego loss involves Some level of brain activity, not necessarily part of the "ego". But if all "ego loss" meant was zero brain activity, then ego loss would be no more or less than being clinically dead.
But since it doesn't mean clinical death, and there is some brain activity, then, again, the fact that a corpse doesn't feel at all would make it slightly hard for said corpse to "trip balls".
Unless of course you believe in mind/body duality: that the spirit and the body are separate, and that with psychedelics you are somehow "freeing" your spirit.

is where our exeirience/opinions/belief are differing that makes all the difference, Ponti. Once I would've agreed with you that it's all just "tripping bawlz, dude " and purely a matter of brain function. Since those two experiences I no longer do though. Of course I cannot possibly prove my change in perspective is based on empirical fact - I just know that it is Truth. I also realise I'm skirting horribly close to religious territories with statements like that... but much as I dislike religion it was my own "spiritual awakening" that happened those two nights.

I still have little or no truck with religious rubbish but all I can do is repeat - yet again - that if it happens you will know that things suddenly make sense and find peace in your "soul". Also a concept I had no truck with but now makes total sense to me. The duality - in my mind - is proven through experience. I also hope you find that peace one day soon and hope I'm not coming over as too much of a poncy, God-bothering nobhead. It all goes back to that words vs experience thing again, I'm afraid

 

[DwayneHoover]

...your BODY is the one that is doing the EXPERIENCING. Ego loss involves Some level of brain activity...

Here's where you seem to be confused.

You are equating "Brain" with "consciousness." If the physical structures of the brain are the ultimate and final ground and basis of consciousness, then WHAT IS IT that is "having" the sensation of "what it feels like to be a brain"?

You cant answer "the brain is having the experience of what it feels like to be a brain". That is totally invalid self-canceling circular reasoning that simply sidesteps this fundamental question that has been being argued about for millennia.

WHY should certain constructions of neurons/nerve signals/etc possess an internal subjective sensation of what it "feels like" to be them?

There is no conclusive answer to this. Certain physicists/philosophers (David Chalmers for one) have come to conclude that all prior purely physicalist attempts to answer "The Hard Problem" of philosophy are just tautological proclamations and no answer to the actual questions being posed, and conclude that like Space and Time, CONSCIOUSNESS must be concluded to be some basic fundamental property OF REALITY ITSELF that our brains have been devised by evolution to CAPTURE and EXPLOIT not totally create on their own out of nothing, which would be akin to a miracle.

See links from these pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers

The following is a VERY good summary of how "we" got here and the issues at bay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Phenomenal_and_access_consciousness

 

[Shambles]

^ Also a concept explored very interestingly in the documentary I posted a few pages back about what it is that creates consciousness - mind, body, soul, something else or a combination perhaps. Fascinating programme. Also features ketamine/general anaesthesia experiments, experience of people in comas, sever brain injuries and so on. Highly recommended to all

 

[Clockwork Soldier]

I think that Ismene and pontifex01 are being a bit nihilistic, other people have made a leap of faith based on what their experiences have revealed to them, there's no need to tear them down for it. I've experienced ego death on 60x salvia extract before, all I can really say about it is that if it's true ego death you'll know afterwards (because you can't know anything while it's happening). It's not terrifying like people say it is (leading up to it can be terrifying but only if you try to fight it) it isn't anything at all. You're just not anything or anywhere; no dimensions, no senses, no time, no reality. It's not even like it goes on for an eternity, it's not infinite it's timeless. Some people have described it as being everything but I always felt more like I was nothing. You don't really perceive it, it just is while you just aren't. Of course this is just me, other people might take it differently. It's pretty indescribable but worth it in the end, it's one of the more profound experiences. I've never managed it on shrooms before (maybe I'm doing too small doses) but I think in order to experience it you need to be prepared for it. What I mean by that is that it isn't possible to experience it unless you're at least somewhat ready in your mind. Don't fear it, just go with the flow

 

[Easy_Z]

To lose one's ego, is to find one's self.

OP- the ego loss you described seems more as not recognizing yourself, not losing your ego, but merely your own image being so distorted you weren't able to recognize it as yourself.

The term "ego loss", to me, isn't something that's defined as "just losing one's self". It is the beginning act of finding ones true being. Once one's sense of self has been lost, be it drugs, religion, meditation, or a combination of methods(however, one acid trip isn't going to make you buddah, nor is one meditation session, ya dig?); one can go on to find ones true self. Which I believe is an important part of finding out who I really am in this world.

In order to experience ego loss, one must first understand the concept of ego.
To myself, an ego is what ones emotional being is made of, the person one believes oneself to be. This is shown by the way one acts towards events in ones life. Everything that one does is a change in ego,however small or large; be it giving a nickel to a homeless person, or taking the life of a homeless person, thanking the waiter who just brought food to the table, buying a brand new Mercedes Benz E-class, jealousy, pride, lust, humility. These affect one's ego, sense of self the way one perceives oneself in the world and their mind.

I am on the quest to find myself in this world by losing myself. Finding myself physically, mentally, spiritually. That, I believe is the key to happiness, to know who one's self being truly is. Not living for the materialistic, self absorbed, disgusting world the majority of this world lives for. Finding the beauty in a blade of grass, the strength a rabbit, appreciating everything for what it truly is and what it is not, understanding love, and hate. I believe it is a life long process gaining the ability to gain entrance into a life after this reality, be it real or fiction.


Sorry if I got a little off topic or rambled but Ive been reading the psyche thread thread for a little while and couldn't sit idly by without my opinion being tossed in here. Thanks for reading and I hope you guys can understand what I'm getting at. Hope I wasn't too hypocritical as I tend to be sometimes.