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hawaiian Baby wWoodrose (LSA) seeds

Isn't his thread enough? Glucosides will be in the seeds wether you scrape the husk of or not. There can't be any online sources cited, because I believe noone knows of any, this hasn't been researched well enough, only poorly.
 
No this thread isn't enough because other threads contradict what has been said here. I don't see how people can be so adamant about HBWR containing cyanide glycosides when, as you said, there hasn't been adequate research. It seems like that in the lack of good evidence the existence of something is assumed to be correct instead of the opposite.

Stuff like this is why I am confused. From my (limited) research so far I'd side with mgs as I haven't come across any studies/journals that have found these glycosides. I did read in the LSD faq (which contains an excerpt from the Journal of Psychoactive drugs regarding nervosa) that there might be glycosides present which may explain the nausea, tachycardia etc... (however this is only speculation) - maybe this is where the myth originated?
 
Could somebody shed some more light?
This post isnt exactly science, but its my opinion on the limited data availible.

I found some links on the topic worth reading;
-Plants causing sudden death
-Relationship between cyanogenic compounds in seeds
-Amygdalin

Im still convinced that the cyanide content (apart from the discussion if there is some in it) will not be a problem if you want to trip off mgs or hbrw seeds. The cyanide isnt that toxic when you relate it for example with nicotine (40 mg nicotine versus 100 mg of cyanide).

There arent any deaths related with mgs or hbrw, but there are reports of people who used a very high dose.
A lot of the side effects of cyanide poisoning can be related with side effects of the trip (nausea through some of the alkaloids and some other effects through bad tripping; shortness of breath, anxiety).
You should really worry if you have convulsions or worse. But none are reported so far I know.

Just be carefull to not be reckless with mgs or hbrw seeds and take a huge dose. Stick with the dose availible on erowid.org.
 
Oddly, these were some of the symptoms I had during the time of my "bad trip" (a handful, not all of them) :

Indeed, one of the symptoms of cyanide poisoning is labored breathing. Other symptoms include salivation, anxiety, headache, ataxia, vertigo, giddiness, lower-jaw stiffness and nausea, followed by convulsions, paralysis, coma, cardiac arrhythmia and respiratory failure.

Taken from the last link given above.
 
Two comments on the HBWR discussion

ksi:

Ingesting Argyreia nervosa seeds calls for some caution. What I and many others have experienced were not just “bad trips” - I have had enough of them to be able to tell the difference - but real cases of poisoning with some nasty autonomic disturbances similar to the effects of scopolamine (also see Blowmonkey's post above). The dangers of toxic psychosis with HBWR seeds has also been medically documented:

Gopel, C., A. Maras & M. Schmidt. 2003. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: A case report of an Argyreia nervosa induced toxic psychosis] Psychiatr Prax 30(4):223-4

faeR:

Yes, cyanogenic or cyanogenetic glucosides exist in a number of botanical species. Dozens or more articles have been published on the subject since the 1930s. My source for claiming that Argyreia nervosa seeds contain “cardioactive glucosides” is the now late psychedelic guru Terrence McKenna. I suspect Terrence originally acquired this piece of information from his brother Dennis who is a renown biochemist. If my memory serves me right Terrence has also mentioned this fact in several of his speeches and symposiums on entheogens (for a source of MP3 files go to http://mckenna.psychedelic-library.org/ ).

I have never bothered to look these claims up as I have taken Terrence’s word for it, and if these “cardioactive glucosides” indeed are cyanogenic - as Blowmonkey and some others claim - or if they are some other class of glucosides I simply do not know - although, given the common symptoms of HBWR psychoses I do not see any reason to doubt Blowmonkey.

However, it would be of some value to settle this issue once and for all. The information you are looking for is probably not available on the internet which means that you will have to do your research the good old-fashioned way. The following articles should get you started (remember to report your findings back here):

Borsutzky, M., Passie, T., Paetzold, W., Emrich, H. & U. Schneider. 2002. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: (Psycho-) Pharmacological effects of the seeds of Argyreia nervosa. A case-orientated demonstration]. Nervenarzt 73(9):892-6

Chao, J. & A. DerMarderosian. 1973. Ergoline alkaloidal constituents of Hawaiian baby wood rose, Argyreia nervosa (Burm. F.) Bojer. J Pharmaceut Sci 62(4):588-591

Crawford, K. 1970. The identification of lysergic acid amide in baby Hawaiian woodrose by mass spectrometry. J Forensic Sci 15(4):588-594

Der Marderosian, A. & J. Chao. 1970. The indole alkaloid constituents of Argyreia nervosa Burm. f. Bojer. (convolvulaceae). Ges fur Arzneipflanzenforschung & Am Soc Pharmacognosy (July 26-31):3

Furbee, R., S. Curry & D. Kunkle. 1991. Ingestion of Argyreia nervosa (Hawaiian baby woodrose) seeds. Vet Human Toxicol 33(4):370

Hentschel, H., I. Bergmann, J. Lampe, M. Radam, F. MunscherPaulig & E. Axthelm, E. H. 2000. Two cases of ingestion of Hawaiian baby wood rose (Argyreia nervosa). J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 38( 2):234

Rahman, A, M. Ali & N. Khan. 2003. Argyroside from Argyreia nervosa seeds. Pharmazie 58(1):60-2

Shawcross, W. 1983. Recreational use of ergoline alkaloids from Argyreia nervosa. J Psychoactive Drugs 15(4):251-9
 
Mad, stuff like this is what i was after, thanks pete :)

You're right about the ill effects some people experience from the nervosa seeds being similar to cyanide poisoning (esp. vertigo, tachycardia, nausea etc...). However saponins (I assume these are the soap-like glycosides others have been talking about?) can effect heart muscle contraction (tachycardia?) if they are cardio active aswell as cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea (but no reports of vertigo).

I'll head round to a few librarys later this week and see if I can chase any of these articles up. I'll post if I find anything interesting.
 
Thanks for bringing that up pete.
But Im still not convinced there are cyanide glucosides in those seeds. Even if there is, if it's enough to be toxic.
There are some weird alkaloids, as you mentioned! thanks, in the seeds, but those alkaloids dont produce anxiety (directly)?.

It's the mind that flips, indirect maybe through those cardiac alkaloids. Dont understand me wrong, I had bad trips on LSA seeds too. But I dont think there is anything directly related, some trips were just good.
 
Last edited:
faeR: Updated readinglist

---

Al-Assmar SE. 1999. The seeds of the Hawaiian baby woodrose are a powerful hallucinogen. Arch Intern Med. 159 (17) :2090

Borsutzky, M., Passie, T., Paetzold, W., Emrich, H. & U. Schneider. 2002. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: (Psycho-) Pharmacological effects of the seeds of Argyreia nervosa. A case-orientated demonstration]. Nervenarzt 73 (9) :892-6 (in German)

Chao, J. & A. DerMarderosian. 1973. Ergoline alkaloidal constituents of Hawaiian baby wood rose, Argyreia nervosa (Burm. F.) Bojer. J Pharmaceut Sci 62 (4) :588-591

Crawford, K. 1970. The identification of lysergic acid amide in baby Hawaiian woodrose by mass spectrometry. J Forensic Sci 15 (4) :588-594

Der Marderosian, A. & J. Chao. 1970. The indole alkaloid constituents of Argyreia nervosa Burm. f. Bojer. (convolvulaceae). Ges fur Arzneipflanzenforschung & Am Soc Pharmacognosy (July 26-31) :3

Furbee, R., S. Curry & D. Kunkle. 1991. Ingestion of Argyreia nervosa (Hawaiian baby woodrose) seeds. Vet Human Toxicol 33 (4) :370

Gertsch J. & C. Wood C. 2003. Case report: an ingestion of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds associated with acute psychosis. Hawaii Med J. 62 (6) :127-129

Gopel, C., A. Maras & M. Schmidt. 2003. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: A case report of an Argyreia nervosa induced toxic psychosis] Psychiatr Prax 30 (4) :223-4 (in German)

Hentschel, H., I. Bergmann, J. Lampe, M. Radam, F. MunscherPaulig & E. Axthelm, E. H. 2000. Two cases of ingestion of Hawaiian baby wood rose (Argyreia nervosa). J Clin Toxicol 38 (2) :234

Rahman, A, M. Ali & N. Khan. 2003. Argyroside from Argyreia nervosa seeds. Pharmazie 58 (1) :60-2

Shawcross, W. 1983. Recreational use of ergoline alkaloids from Argyreia nervosa. J Psychoactive Drugs 15 (4) :251-9

Vogel W, R. Carapellotti, B. Evans & A. Der Marderosian. 1972. Physiological disposition of isoergine (from Argyreia nervosa (Burm. f.) Bojer Convolvulaceae) and its effect on the conditioned avoidance response in rats. Psychopharmacologia. 24 (2) :238-42.

----

However, when combing your local libraries you will find that surprisingly little has been published on Argyreia nervosa in Europe and North America.

But you can widen your search to cover all Argyreia species which are known to contain ergot-alkaloids (A. acuta, A. barnesii, A. cuneata, A. hainanensis, A. luzonensis, A. mollis, A. obtusifolia, A. philippinensis, A. speciosa, A. splendens, and A. wallichi. These are all sufficiently similar to warrant study, and as I have indicated before, I suspect that some of the seeds currently marketed as nervosa by unscrupulous or unknowing vendors may in fact belong to one or several of the above mentioned species.

Considering the natural distribution of Argyreia species I also suspect that more useful stuff, especially concerning toxicology, has been published in Indian scientific journals (although I have not had the opportunity to look into this). So, if you are planning on visiting Goa in the near future it would be an idea to spare a couple of days for some hard-core research in the national library and the larger universities in Delhi.

In either case, even if you only begin with the articles mentioned here (some of which have been published in German) you are in for some serious work!

Given the increasing number of emergency room admissions due to HBWR induced toxic psychosis more studies of Argyreia nervosa seeds will undoubtedly be published in the future, and I suspect the authorities will also start looking into this issue in order to criminalize HBWR-seeds - and this could happen quite fast once they get in gear why I suggest aficionados slowly start thinking about growing their own!

Anyway, good luck faeR, and let us know what you find!

//pete_johns
 
Ok I did some research myself; the only article I could get through my university library =

Borsutzky, M., Passie, T., Paetzold, W., Emrich, H. & U. Schneider. 2002. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: (Psycho-) Pharmacological effects of the seeds of Argyreia nervosa. A case-orientated demonstration]. Nervenarzt 73 (9) :892-6 (in German)

-No word about cyanide in it (or any other nitroloside for that matter).
They do mention the alkaloid content (in %) of some of the common alkaloids in it (some arent researched well, but there content is so low they arent important).
Furthermore they explain a case report of a 21 year old in psychose. And how the techno scene consumes these seeds.
And that it is dangerous because you can get a psychose or other mental problems.

Anyone has more on this?
Because I still doubt some of the things mentioned in this thread.
A bad trip has alot of the effects cyanide overdose has. And I cant seem to find any scientific word about cyanide content in these seeds.
I bet there is a little bit in it, but I dont think it has any significance.
Pete_johns, do you have acces to some of those older articles you posted?
 
Ah I totally forgot about this thread 8(

I didn't have any luck either finding most of these articles. I tried a couple of university libraries and the state library but no luck. The only article I could find was the same as you ksi, but I don't speak German :(

Does anyone have an online subscription to any of these journals? Those of you who go to Uni should check out if you can access it online through your college because I know you can via Monash [link] if you're a student...
 
Some more reading for y'all, nothing conclusive though..

"Recreational use of Ergoline Alkaloids from Argyreia Nervosa"
William E. Shawcross
Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol. 15(4) Oct-Dec 1983


CHEMISTRY AND EFFECT OF THE SEEDS
The Hawaiian baby woodrose entered the drug scene in 1965 with the
publication of a paper in "Science" entitled "Ergoline Alkaloids in Tropical
Wood Roses" by Hylin and Watson. The wide circulation of this journal assured
thorough dissemination of the information they presented. They wrote, "The
possible health and legal problems associated with the presence of similar
compounds in commerically cultivated plants led us to examine the ornamental
wood roses, Ipomoea tuberosa and Argyreia nervosa, both common Hawaiian crops
that have assumed commerical importance as components of [the] dried tropical
flower industry." Comparing the seeds of these two plants with those of the
morning glory varieties Pearly Gates and Heavenly Blue, they found the
following yield of alkaloids (mg of alkaloid/g of seed material):

Heavenly Blue 0.813
Pearly Gates 0.423
I. tuberosa [None]
A. nervosa 3.050

The seed of A. nervosa is the best plant source of ergoline alkaloids
discovered; it contains approximately 3 mg of alkaloidal material per gram of
seed. Approximately one-eighth of this is lysergamide.

Hylin and Watson found the major alkaloidal constituents in A. nervosa seeds to
be ergine (780 mcg/g of fresh seed) and isoergine and penniclavine (555 mcg).

[Note: Argyreia nervosa has NO history of shamanic use as a hallucinogen]

This is an excerpt from the article cited.
There's no record of Argyreia being used as an hallucinogen in
India, but it was used externally as some kind of skin medicine.
There's been speculation that Argyreia might have been a component
of "Soma", but there's no evidence for that, apparently.
Because there's not a long history of human usage of Argyreia,
it may be that there are glycosides not mentioned here that
take effect at higher doses or might cause stomach upset, tachycardia
etc. The article mentioned intestinal complaints in one or two
cases at higher experimental doses.

http://www.drogeninfo.de/files/lsdfaq.html

Al-Assmar SE. 1999. The seeds of the Hawaiian baby woodrose are a powerful hallucinogen. Arch Intern Med. 159 (17) :2090

Summary

The seeds of the Hawaiian baby woodrose (Argyreia nervosa) are used by adolescents as a supposed hallucinogenic drug. These seeds are legally available and broadly sold. The active components are alkaloids structurally related to lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). However, the psychic effects are very different from those of LSD and are dominated by rather sedative, uncomfortable autonomic disturbances similar to the effects of scopolamine. The (psycho)pharmacological profile is described on the basis of the active substances lysergacidamide and lysergacidethylamide (and their isomers). It is shown that neither the substances themselves nor the mixture are able to evoke LSD-like perceptual variances. The exposure of Argyreia nervosa is described focusing on potential fetal distress by contained ergometrine and the case history of an intoxication

This was the article you two (faeR & ksi) found, although no mentioning of consumption in the techno scene..

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...l,21,96;linkingpublicationresults,id:100480,1


Case report: an ingestion of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds associated with acute psychosis.

Gertsch JH, Wood C.

University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry, University Tower, 4th Floor, 1356 Lusitana Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96813, USA.


An 18 year old male ingested Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds (containing the hallucinogen lysergic acid) and required hospitalization for psychotic behavior. This is the second documented case of an acute psychosis ascribed to ingestion of this plant, and it is suggested that Hawaiian Baby Woodrose ingestion should be present in the differential diagnosis when dealing with the acutely psychotic young adult patient.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12886727&dopt=Abstract

Unfortunately, this was everything I could find online (several quick searches), there were some articles I couldn't reach because of certain restrictions, but I should be able to get a few more interesting things posted here.

I really want to get rid of that "bad trip" thing, that's simply not the case.. I think I can distinguish a bad trip from poisoning, a bad trip does not feel like this.. Actually, I'd like people to experience this for themselves and then reconsider their thoughts about this (not really, but I think it would solve the mentioning of the "bad trip")..
 
pete_johns said:
But you can widen your search to cover all Argyreia species which are known to contain ergot-alkaloids (A. acuta, A. barnesii, A. cuneata, A. hainanensis, A. luzonensis, A. mollis, A. obtusifolia, A. philippinensis, A. speciosa, A. splendens, and A. wallichi. These are all sufficiently similar to warrant study, and as I have indicated before, I suspect that some of the seeds currently marketed as nervosa by unscrupulous or unknowing vendors may in fact belong to one or several of the above mentioned species.

I am also considering to look into the other seeds you listed above. My seeds do look a little bit different from (what everyone suggests are) the "real" HBWR, so it could very well be a variety. I suspect this will take (much) more time and effort, but I would be happy to solve the mystery behind this all..
 
2Blowmonkey, fine that you want to get rid off this 'bad trip' image. But stop claiming that there are cyanogenic glucosides in these seeds, when there isnt _any_ data on it in articles. We just dont know enough and I wouldnt claim something that has never been backed up in articles.
And even _if_ there is a low concentration in it, will it effect your trip? It's highly unlikely.

There are other glucosides mentioned in this thread. And there is done enough research on those compounds. These are more likely to cause the problems. They will have some ugly side effects; like nauseau and tachycardia. These compounds could send you in a bad trip (indirectly).

Hmm and I have had a few bad trips, not that many thank god (one on mgs, which contain the same glucosides which cause nauseau/tachycardia).
But what I experienced sounds alot like your experience.

Ow and about that consumption of these seeds in the techno scene, read the whole article. I sent you a copy through email.
 
Really, I have no idea wether this are cyanogenic glucosides or not, I have read through various articles now and it could actually be a whole lot of things that are causing this..

But I am fairly sure that this wasn't just a bad trip and that the alkaloid content of whatever it was, was high enough to have such an adverse side effect. This was no bad trip.. The nausea and tachycardia weren't the reason it went bad. I have dealt with such things before, when it was even more severe. It was just the poisoning feeling, you have no idea, I doubt you could talk like you do now if you really had the same thing happening..

And yeah, the techno scene.. Weird. :)
 
HBWR articles

Blowmonkey & ksi: Thank you for the summaries, abstracts and links. Good initiative! An idea: when/if you come across the titles I referred to above, or any other articles on Argyreia species (even if they do not treat the particular issue of glucosides) please do post any interesting references you find in them in this thread. That way we will be able to put together a comprehensive list of publications on HBWR seeds (that’s what a good forum like this is for!). I will do the same when I find the time to look into this issue. Given my current workload that would be in 6 months or so though...

ksi: I am sorry to say I do not have any of the articles at hand, and all are not really relevant for our enquiry as they do not deal with toxicology and phytochemistry. However, I included them in the hope that you might find more useful titles in their references. The two most promising articles in my above list would probably be:

Gopel, C., A. Maras & M. Schmidt. 2003. [Hawaiian baby woodrose: A case report of an Argyreia nervosa induced toxic psychosis] Psychiatr Prax 30 (4) :223-4 (in German)

Hentschel, H., I. Bergmann, J. Lampe, M. Radam, F. MunscherPaulig & E. Axthelm, E. H. 2000. Two cases of ingestion of Hawaiian baby wood rose (Argyreia nervosa). J Clin Toxicol 38 (2) :234

Have you been able to locate these at all? On the other hand, if you claim that there “isnt _any_ data” on cyanogenic glucosides “in articles” (?) and that the issue has “never been backed up in articles”, that would of course imply that you actually have read up on everything that has been published on Argyreia?!? Whatever the case, keep us updated on any further progress in your search. When I get around to it I will also start making enquiries, who knows what we might find? In the meantime though, I will continue to claim that the seeds do indeed contain some rather nasty cardioactive glucosides, possibly cyanogenic.

//pete_johns
 
I read the first article you mentioned (and another one). And I do sound a bit like a I know it all; sorry for that.
I dont really doubt there are some ugly glucosides in it.
But Im almost sure you dont od on cyanide when tripping on some hbrw seeds (apart from the question if there are some cyanogenic compounds in it).
Maybe if you ingest insane amounts, but there isnt any data that I read that indicates that (haven't read that much, but ok).
I could mail you the two pdf files (PM me for that).
 
I found this the other day and thought it might be of some relevance in regards to exactly which variety people are consuming...

"The cheap african seed flooded the market sometime after '95. Most of the seed available through ethnobotany supplies before then was of the nervosa variety. However in the last few years ('98 onwards) the african speciosa seed has largely replaced the traditional nervosa seed. As lines of supply became blurred people started paying the nervosa price for speciosa seed and these days a high price is not a guarantee of getting nervosa seed anymore. Even worse, many seedsuppliers (even on Hawaii) have bought in the speciosa variety and are now selling it (quite unknowingly) as nervosa seed."

- taken from the website of an ethnobotanical supplier in Australia (I would post the url but I'm afraid it might be against forum guidelines - sources).

If this were true then perhaps certain HBWR experiences would have been based on the speciosa variety rather than nervosa and thus could explain why some people experience trachycardia, nausea etc... from one batch but not from another. Speculative I know but it definitely sounds like it would be worth investigating, like others have said, articles dealing with both speciosa and nervosa varieties (good luck to those who go hunting!).
 
I had HBWR that was a nigerian variety. The company claimed it was less toxic that other varieties but I had to eat alot more. Like 10x more. But it was a very nice trip. Infact I liked it better than LSD. It was more relaxed/stress free(asid from some mild cramping).
 
Gotta write about this plant...! :D

I had one evening over an hour 15 seeds of this plant, the best quality I could get online (organically grown in Hawaii) and the experience blew away 3 g of Psylocibe Cubensis, heavy dosages of DXM and 1 oz of Amanita Muscaria.

I don't get visual often, usually only on lots of shrooms and it was't the case with HBWR. Everything around me was expanding and breathing, looked beautiful. Lights created tracers that would travel in my visions for a long time... But most important part of the trip is mental. Feels so intense, it is hard to believe that you can even feel like THAT. Words can't describe.

I felt very relaxed.
I felt so stimulated, I did more movements in 15 minutes that I ever could do even on speed, cleaning an entire apartment.
Time at one point almost stopped.
I was laughing uncontrollably and smiling like a cheshire cat (looked super intoxicated I bet) while walking at night around the lake. It was magical.
It sets everything in life apart and made me feel I live in the moment and every single moment is beautiful.
I felt like my g/f is more beautiful and delicate than ever. I could easily read all her emotions, like an open book.
I couldn't feel cold.
Cigarette smoke felt like traveling through my entire body.
Glass bottle Coca Cola tastes like ambrosia. SO delicious, it took me 30 minutes to finish a glass while I felt ecstatic, haha :)
I wrote the most crazy stuff in life on evolution, computer systems and fractal patterns of Universe.
I felt being under control by a spirit at one point of time. It would make me type without thinking commands and explanations to my being.. I still have that writing and everytime I read it I feel amazed how I could come up with something like that without paying any attention to writing and typing whatever would come to my mind (it created logical statements and sentences though)
I could control emotions and cry and laugh next second.
I couldn't stop smiling.
I REALIZE so many things about my life, people, reality like I never did before.

(For example everyone lives in her own/ his own reality, all the things are perceived with unique emotional coloration according to the individuality, the same comes to the way information is processed and expressed. People can connect as far as their some point in common, the people whose reality is different from the very fluid standards accepted by the society end up on the streets and psych clinics for no reason; it could be real sickness, but usually it's the fact that the individual's reality is so different from the "norms" that the person can't live in such place, etc, etc.)

I had the most important conversation with my g/f, and sadly enough I felt in complete control of her emotions and personality, it was so scary. This plant gave me some of the best oratoric skills.
I felt sick to my stomach but it faded away when I reached plato.
I could go to school next day.
When I listend to music I felt like I was living in a song and the sounds have a direct influence on my state of being. Amazing experience with ambient and noise music....
I felt like through my body millions thoughts on various subjects are running at the same time and I could switch in between. I felt like I will loose this ability when I become sober so I trade sporadically to take notes on different ides to come back to them later.
I was afraid that all the important things I discovered will fade away when the drug leaves the body, but actually day after I retained the most of information, so don't worry about such things when you are high.
I never felt anxiety or paranoia as sever as I felt in the past from shrooms, HBWR would make me more restless and lock me on thoughts more than actually causing a case of full-blown paranoia. But it did cause a manic episode for a short period of time

And oh yeah, at one point of time I felt like I could read symbolism in religious texts and find symbols in word and letter pattern.
My mind was stuck on an idea that life and death are the same and I could just kill myself and it would be perfectly fine. Then in 15 minutes a desire to live like never before in my life took over me

This drug is truly magical. There's no way I could be prepared for the experience I had, even though I read dozens of trip reports and experienced with psychedelics quite well.

It threw in my face everything I was avoiding, it helped me to improve my life and be better for others around me. A true battle within but you come out as a winner either way.

In 3 days I tried to take 20 biggest sized seeds left, I ground it into a powder and drunk with water. I fast fasting for 5 hours beforehand but I still threw up very violently without reaching any psychedelic effects. It was almost like my body and the plants decided that I had enough for a while and need a drink.

I don't know when else I will try it. When I need a spiritual guide or when I want to restart my brain perhaps.

My advises:

It takes a long time to kick in. Don't take more than 15 potent seeds at once (I am 6'3", 200 lbs and it was enough for me, way enough, especially taking into account I have to dose 1.5. times more with drugs that most people do to feel effects). It will kick in, slowly but surely, just be patient!

The plant is not that toxic, toxins are distributed all over, so no need to scrape the outer shell - it won't help. People used to take freakin' 20 seeds at once or 5 seeds every day for a week and there's no instances of hospitalization yet. Still, don't over do. Take aspirin to help with blood circulation and some acid-stabilizers to reduce the bad feeling in your stomach. Pepto or whatever helps a lot.

You can't be ready for the experience if you do it first time. Mediate and try not get too carried away when things start slip away. Have absolutely no obligations or people you don't want to meet around.

Have a sitter. My sitter wasn't perfect though and made things worse. I was with my sober girlfriend and I couldn't stop talking and behaving completely insane but she took all my words very close to her heart and I hurt her not on purpose, plus she had a tough day to begin with. Take care of your sitter! I tried to explain to her all about the plant and my state of my mind but it was useless, she just couldn't imagine something like that. You sitter should understand that you will be INSANE and what you say can't be taken as the words form a sober person or even extremely drunk person... It's important to listen to each other but not challenge each other, state of emotions swings up and down within the trip. The sitter in other words should be familiar theoretically with the substances and expect shit to happen. Should also know you and be your friend, haha, obviously.
Must be a mentally strong person to help you be under control.

No matter what your mind will tell you- promise yourself following: don't harm yourself or kill yourself, even if it would seem like it's a good thing to do like never before in the past but trust me, if you wake up alive in the morning you will be thanking all Gods and baby Jesus for not doing anythings stupid..

If you start feeling super good and you think that you should pop some more drugs to enhance the trip - don't do it. People reported bad combinations happening. Stick with one substances on HBWR.

Have a completely empty stomach before taking the seeds. Drink down only a glass of water. Don't start drinking a lot right away. If you feel sick like you need to throw up, the less liquid was in your body when you took seeds, the better LSA will remain in your stomach and won't leave with puking. Too much liquid can also prolong absorption.

Chewing seeds and spitting them out or taking whole powder on the stomach produces nausea just the same. So do whatever you find easier, there's no ultimate way to escape the sickness. Besides crystallization of LSA.

The feeling of sickness, muscle cramps, high heart beat, problems with using restroom, drunk restless feeling and thoughts along the lines: "oh shit, why did I take it, it's gonna suck, I feel like shit already, man!" will visit you as well. It's important to remember that negative effect will FADE and you will feel MUCH better once you come up. In my opinion a couple of hours of discomfort are truly worth it.

Clean your environment. HBWR might make you feel super OC and every single piece of paper on the floor or a crumble on the table will drive you crazy. In Eastern religious thoughts it is related to the flow of Chi energy than needs come through the living environment and not accumulate in corners. Junk and unorganized space traps more negative energy. It made sense to me when I was tripping and when everything was perfect I could relax again.

Smoking weed for me (with a very low tolerance, no smoking until that night for over 2 weeks), some indica, helped to put the trip to an end, relax me and get me drowsy. Usually indica after a long pause acts like a tranquilizer, while a joint of some hybrid could make me feel very restless and energetic - no the best weed to take with HBWR. I wouldn't recommend smoking weed while tripping, unless you don't want to have the intense experience HBWR can give you alone...

P.S. Also I noticed that the rush from HBWR is very subtle and rises slowly, unlike after taking shrooms when I feel like tons of something and energy come through every single chakra of my body, and the body load is super intense so that I must catch a breath and lay down. Probably the best things about the shrooms for me.

Hopefully it was helpful!
Trip safely!

Oh HBWR, what a plant you are!!!

ALSO PEOPLE, I think extracting LSA in a liquid and then plugging it anally would produce great effects and reduce feeling of stomach discomfort. What are your thoughts on it? Does someone wants to try it? :) I would make a very fine powder and soak it a little bit of water, mixing it well, than waiting for the residue to think. Then using a coffee filter to filter out the liquid.. And then take the potent staff, use syringe without a needle and maybe some lubricant, haha, and then prepare to trip the ass of! I will try in the future, but would like to hear what you have to say. Like maybe the toxins need to be filtered through kidneys and liver and plugging maybe more comfortable as all chems will go straight into the blood streams.
 
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Cyanide? shhmyanide...

Chewing seeds and spitting them out or taking whole powder on the stomach produces nausea just the same. So do whatever you find easier, there's no ultimate way to escape the sickness. Besides crystallization of LSA.The feeling of sickness, muscle cramps, high heart beat, problems with using restroom, drunk restless feeling and thoughts along the lines: "oh shit, why did I take it, it's gonna suck, I feel like shit already, man!" will visit you as well. It's important to remember that negative effect will FADE and you will feel MUCH better once you come up. In my opinion a couple of hours of discomfort are truly worth it.


LOL when i hear folks talk about ^^^when tripping on HBWR or MG.

There is a surefire way to prevent all that stuff. Im not talking about helping or alleviating the negative sides, no, no, no,
im talking 100% prevention.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=542987

^^^all rights belong to J.J. Shabadoo Jr. , patent pending
 
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