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Opioids Why aren't there ER or non-APAP versions of hydrocodone?

Harrisment

Harrisment

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Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
398
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I'm one of those people that actually prefers hydrocodone over oxycodone. Oxy just makes me want to lay down and do nothing, while hydro makes me energetic and social. Hydro also does a much better job of relieving my chronic pain when comparing on a mg to mg basis.

Something I've always wondered though is why are there no hydro equivalents to meds such as Roxicodone and Oxycontin? Given that oxycodone is generally considered the stronger of the two, I'm curious why it has these stronger/non-apap containing solutions, but hydrocodone has nothing of the sort?

I've also heard that there are compounding pharmacies out there that will create these stronger hydro solutions, but how common are those? I've never heard of anyone being prescribed something like this so I was wondering how you'd go about it? I would like to stay on hydrocodone, but I'd prefer to do it without the APAP.
 
To answer your questions from all angles I'd like to start off by mentioning that yes it would be more beneficial to you at this point to continue using hydrocodone for recreation.

The problems your encountering are due to the fact that there is political, social, and governmental red tape regarding the regulation and sale of snip: opiates in general.
It makes you too sleepy, so they add cafeine, its to easy to abuse, so they add acetaminophen, etc etc. see where im going?

As far as why its dosed so lowly is because there is a federal law that limits the maximum amount of codeine mg to 12.5mg per pill i believe. (Tylenol 3's right?)

You can, in other countries, buy codeine without all the crap that we add to it here. basically its for anti-abuse. edit: and according to others there are special pharmacies where you can obtain these special pills.
 
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Thanks for your reply, but I'm asking about hydrocodone, not codeine. They are not the same thing.

I am curious why these non-apap version exist for oxycodone(the stronger drug) but not for hydrocodone.
 
blackjesus said:
To answer your questions from all angles I'd like to start off by mentioning that yes it would be more beneficial to you at this point to continue using hydrocodone for recreation.

The problems your encountering are due to the fact that there is political, social, and governmental red tape regarding the regulation and sale of codeine.

It makes you too sleepy, so they add cafeine, its to easy to abuse, so they add acetaminophen, etc etc. see where im going?

As far as why its dosed so lowly is because there is a federal law that limits the maximum amount of codeine mg to 12.5mg per pill i believe. (Tylenol 3's right?)

You can, in other countries, buy codeine without all the crap that we add to it here. basically its for anti-abuse.
Click to expand...

Why are you even talking about codeine? The OP is talking about hydrocodone, completely different opioid. With the apap hydrocodone is a schedule III, but by itself it is a schedule II.
 
im sorry i realize now neither of you knew hydrocodone was so closely related codeine. hydrocodone is a synthetic derivitive increased potency, decreased side effects; sort of like a prodrug, the way valtrex is related to acyclovir. let that also be added to the record.


to further elaborate:
Why are you even talking about codeine? The OP is talking about hydrocodone, completely different opioid. With the apap hydrocodone is a schedule III, but by itself it is a schedule II.
Click to expand...

you're exactly right, except that codeine is a natural derivative & not itself an opioid alone. im not too sure about drug scheduling, as i find them fundamentally impeding, i mean illegal is illegal no matter how you categorize it.
 
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OP is asking why there is not an extended release form of hydrocodone.
Not why there are additives.
I've heard rumor that using large amounts of hydrocodone can cause deafness. i don't think pharmaceutical companies want a class action law suite.
 
First off- blackjesus was *partially right*... Both codeine and hydrocodone can be schedule 3 if there is less than a certain amount of each and at least 100mg of APAP, ASA, ibuprofen, etc. Otherwise they are schedule II... This is why there aren't any common products solely of codeine or hydrocodone.

Next, hydrocodone is actually semi-synthetic (and I believe its derived from thebaine, not codeine).

For *most* people, hydrocodone is less effective as an analgesic and has less abuse potential than most schedule II opioids... Oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, etc So if most people benefit as much or more from current schedule II's, why would a company put the money into manufacturing high dose hydrocodone if its already generic and most would benefit more from other, currently available options?

As for the compounding pharmacies... I believe they're all over the place and wouldn't be hard to locate unless you're in the middle of nowhere... I have no experience with these so I'm not 100% confident about how widely available they are.

If your doc is willing to prescribe doses of schedule II's that add up to a daily dose of more than 120mg of hydrocodone (12 of the 10/325 norco preparations, this is just under FDA APAP daily max) then I don't see why they wouldn't write you a script for hydrocodone-only products that a compounding pharmacy could make for you.
 
blackjesus said:
As far as why its dosed so lowly is because there is a federal law that limits the maximum amount of codeine mg to 12.5mg per pill i believe. (Tylenol 3's right?)
Click to expand...

Tylenol #1 = 300mg. APAP, 8mg. Codeine, 15mg. Caffeine
Tylenol #2 = 300mg. APAP, 15mg. Codeine, 15mg. Caffeine
Tylenol #3 = 300mg. APAP, 30mg. Codeine, 30mg. Caffeine
Tylenol #4 = 300mg. APAP, 60mg. Codeine, no Caffeine

frankly, i never knew Tylenol #1 or #2 existed until a few moments ago. anyway, as BIGsherm7272 pointed out, without the APAP, Hydrocodone would be a schedule 2 RX, not a schedule 3 RX. same thing goes for Codeine. this is a big deal because schedule 2 drugs require a written script and refills are not allowed. schedule 2 prescriptions are a pain in the ass compared to schedule 3 prescriptions for this reason.

@OP: i'm not positive as to why there's no Hydrocodone-only product. my guess is that there's really no dire need for one. generally speaking, Hydrocodone containing products are RX'd for moderate pain and cough suppression. being a schedule 3 RX is, IMO, beneficial to its makers. also, i think once 60mg/day of Hydrocodone (regardless of APAP content) does not produce sufficient analgesia, most doctors would suggest a more potent PK. with that said, i'm pretty sure there are Hydrocodone-only products just around the corner.
 
The reason is because, hydrocodone isn't a strong opiate like morphine/oxycodone. It gets the job done, dont get me wrong. But when you need further pain relief usually you will get switched to somthing else.

I used to like hydrocodone, but to me it's to slow acting and not strong enough. It's perfect for people that dont have a tolerance to opiates and will throw up if they take oxycodone.
 
I've often wondered the same thing. The "easy" answer would be abuse prevention - to prevent people from abusing hydrocodone by taking large amounts, they add other substances to the mix (such as APAP) to prevent you from eating too many. Then again, the same argument could be made about oxycodone - and we're all aware of the popularity of Oxycontin.

To answer your question about compounding pharmacies - yes they exist but they aren't very widespread. Back in the day of internet pharmacies I was prescribed 15/80's (15mgs hydrocodone / 80mgs APAP). Light pink geltabs containing white powder. They were made by some compounding pharmacy down in Tampa, FL (can't remember the name).
 
^However even if hydocodone came in pure form. I dont think it's as abusable through other ROA's. From what i've read injecting it is dangerous and doesn't kick in instantly., and I dont think snorting it would be that much better.

Some people find hydrocodone really effective, for reasons i'm not sure of. Those people often do go to compound pharmacies and stay on it, rather then switching to somthing else like morphine ect.
 
blackjesus said:
im sorry i realize now neither of you knew hydrocodone was so closely related codeine. hydrocodone is a synthetic derivitive increased potency, decreased side effects; sort of like a prodrug, the way valtrex is related to acyclovir. let that also be added to the record.


to further elaborate:


you're exactly right, except that codeine is a natural derivative & not itself an opioid alone. im not too sure about drug scheduling, as i find them fundamentally impeding, i mean illegal is illegal no matter how you categorize it.
Click to expand...

Hydrocodone is not synthesized from or based on codeine. It is from another alkaloid in the opium poppy: thebaine...



OT: In the USA, hydrocodone is in a sustained-release cough syrup (Tussionex), and is in talks to be made extended-release in a controlled-release Vicodin :

http://www.abbott.com/global/url/pressRelease/en_US/60.5:5/Press_Release_0610.htm

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00402792
 
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Thanks for the info every one.

Perhaps I will ask my PM doc about the possibility of going to a compounding pharmacy. Though I'm only prescribed 4 Norco's a day for breakthrough pain, so I'm not sure that would be an option. I realize that's a fairly low amount, but I've been taking them for several years so that's what concerns me about the APAP. Along with the Norco I'm also prescribed 10 mg Opana ER's twice daily, but I've just started taking them so I don't have a good idea yet of how effective they'll be.
 
blackjesus said:
im sorry i realize now neither of you knew hydrocodone was so closely related codeine. hydrocodone is a synthetic derivitive increased potency, decreased side effects; sort of like a prodrug, the way valtrex is related to acyclovir. let that also be added to the record.


to further elaborate:


you're exactly right, except that codeine is a natural derivative & not itself an opioid alone. im not too sure about drug scheduling, as i find them fundamentally impeding, i mean illegal is illegal no matter how you categorize it.
Click to expand...

Scheduling doesn't make a drug illegal, it makes it illegal in certain situations... When one doesn't have a prescription. Its the same with alcohol and cigarettes (only drink/smoke at certain ages, in certain locations, etc) Schedule I drugs are outright illegal.

I don't think it was intentional, but your first sentence came off rather condescendingly. In this discussion, there is quite a difference between talking about ER-formulations of codeine and hydrocodone as codeine has a dose ceiling and hydrocodone does not. This makes codeine only effective to a very limited extent in ER formulations. Furthermore, your responses seemed to indicate you were unaware they are different drugs so people were just trying to clarify.

To OP-

4 norcos a day is 1.3 grams of APAP... The FDA allows *daily* administration of over 3x that amount. Even overly cautious doctors are usually comfortable prescribing more than twice as much as you're taking as long as you have a healthy liver.

The views of the BL community on apap baffle me... Some people act like taking huge acute doses is no big deal (like 8g neighborhood) while others are terrified of taking the equivalent of 2 doses of OTC tylenol per day.
 
I Did not mean to confuse anyone, I just figured with their relative likeliness in recreational use one would see the purpose of my post and recognize that, i believe, the reason ER- non-APAP and higher strength doses are not available is that they're regulated heavily and not as easily obtained pills like i was trying to describe in my first post. Most of it was recalled from memory. excuse the innacuracies i didnt bother with the bibliography
 
^i think he means he didn't bother fact checking and citing sources pre-publication.

No worries, bj... That's why message boards are cool, we are all wrong sometimes but there's a safety net of other posters and in the end, the correct answer usually prevails via collaborative effort.
 
In Canada there is Hycodan, which is a very popular cough syrup given for flu symptoms and it contains nothing else other than 1mg/1ml hydrocodone.

They usually give it anywhere from 50mL bottles, to 200mL bottles, depending on your opiate history.
 
^doesn't hycodan have the anticholinergic drug homatropine methylbromide in it as well?
 
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